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Osprey
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Kid, I'm not a big fan of the realty system or it's members down this way but once again you are talking out of the top of your hat. Nothing in your
post has any validity, credibility -- makes no sense, it's just more of your professorial maundering.
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Marinero
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Before I retired to Mexico, I spent over 45 years in real estate, starting in title and escrow operations and ending as a real estate attorney.
Things in Mexico are indeed different, but not a crapshoot. Carlene and her office are first class, as is Baja Properties.
Sellers and Buyers need to understand values, procedures and local custom. It is not the realtor's job to do it all for you, but to help you with
information, education and paperwork.
Si estás buscando la person que cambiará su vida, échale una mirada en el espejo.
Fish logo from www.usafishing.com, used w/permission.
But Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man
That he didn't, didn't already have..... |
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Bajatripper
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
Most real estate transactions in Baja are person to person, seller to buyer
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I wonder how true that statement is. I suppose that if you are referring to "most real estate transactions between Mexicans," it would be true. But,
if all of those real estate offices that have popped up around town here in La Paz during the last decade or so are any indication, I'd bet that more
than 50% of foreigners are using real estate agents (or were, before the crisis) as their option. The problem for many would be the language barrier;
your average foreigner isn't able to speak to your average ejidatario--who offer the best prices for property in these parts.
But I do agree totally that "real estate agents" down here are people with whom one must exercise caution for the reasons you have said. There is no
regulation at present, any skum on the run can set up a shingle and start swindling foreigners, who often blindly trust their fellow countrymen over
locals. Sad, but true.
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gnukid
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It's always surprising that the truth gets people angry.
Most transactions in Baja are person to person without representation.
If you want to know go do a round of quick interviews in confidence with Notarios which you should be doing anyway as part of YOUR due diligence in
any RE transaction.
The steps are basic
find a buyer and seller of a property who agree on a price
the seller must verify no liens and ownership current
the two meet at a notario to draw up paperwork, a foreign b uyer must engage a bank for fidcomiso, this paperwork is communicated to the notaria and
then the transaction can be competed with transfer of title, keys etc...
If you are planning on buying or selling go directly to meet the notarios and interview them first, meet more than one, ask questions and see if you
feel comfortable. If you need references or contact info for notarios ask here.
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drarroyo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
Kid, I'm not a big fan of the realty system or it's members down this way but once again you are talking out of the top of your hat. Nothing in your
post has any validity, credibility -- makes no sense, it's just more of your professorial maundering. |
Stick to ... 'writing'??
Paul has just NAILED it!! And his above (2:47am) post is just icing on the cake!
You don't get this after being in LB town for how long????
You are textbook greeengooo.
Future 'advice' from you holds so much less water. Thanx for the wonderful insight.
paz
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drarroyo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajatripper
| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
Most real estate transactions in Baja are person to person, seller to buyer
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I wonder how true that statement is. I suppose that if you are referring to "most real estate transactions between Mexicans," it would be true. But,
if all of those real estate offices that have popped up around town here in La Paz during the last decade or so are any indication, I'd bet that more
than 50% of foreigners are using real estate agents (or were, before the crisis) as their option. The problem for many would be the language barrier;
your average foreigner isn't able to speak to your average ejidatario--who offer the best prices for property in these parts.
But I do agree totally that "real estate agents" down here are people with whom one must exercise caution for the reasons you have said. There is no
regulation at present, any skum on the run can set up a shingle and start swindling foreigners, who often blindly trust their fellow countrymen over
locals. Sad, but true. |
reread Paul's (Gnukid) postings. You're golden. Period.
There's opportunity!! (admittedly longterm ... but GREAT opportunity none the less.) You are not in Kansas anymore.
suerte
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monoloco
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
It's always surprising that the truth gets people angry.
Most transactions in Baja are person to person without representation.
If you want to know go do a round of quick interviews in confidence with Notarios which you should be doing anyway as part of YOUR due diligence in
any RE transaction.
The steps are basic
find a buyer and seller of a property who agree on a price
the seller must verify no liens and ownership current
the two meet at a notario to draw up paperwork, a foreign b uyer must engage a bank for fidcomiso, this paperwork is communicated to the notaria and
then the transaction can be competed with transfer of title, keys etc...
If you are planning on buying or selling go directly to meet the notarios and interview them first, meet more than one, ask questions and see if you
feel comfortable. If you need references or contact info for notarios ask here. |
This is exactly how we
bought our property.
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capt. mike
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i have to agree with this
| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
Kid, I'm not a big fan of the realty system or it's members down this way but once again you are talking out of the top of your hat. Nothing in your
post has any validity, credibility -- makes no sense, it's just more of your professorial maundering. |
the "kid" foments a lot of facts but i never see a bibliography or required foor notes to back up the off the cuff claims.
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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wessongroup
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subject too
| Quote: | Originally posted by monoloco
| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
It's always surprising that the truth gets people angry.
Most transactions in Baja are person to person without representation.
If you want to know go do a round of quick interviews in confidence with Notarios which you should be doing anyway as part of YOUR due diligence in
any RE transaction.
The steps are basic
find a buyer and seller of a property who agree on a price
the seller must verify no liens and ownership current
the two meet at a notario to draw up paperwork, a foreign buyer must engage a bank for fidcomiso, this paperwork is communicated to the notaria and
then the transaction can be competed with transfer of title, keys etc...
If you are planning on buying or selling go directly to meet the notarios and interview them first, meet more than one, ask questions and see if you
feel comfortable. If you need references or contact info for notarios ask here. |
This is exactly how we
bought our property. |
sujetos a, was the language I used in three deals... "subect too" was enough to afford me an opportunity to check things out up front... and insure
the seller "owned said site" and it's exact location was were they said it was, proved by plot map and verified by a reshot of property lines .. if
no.. then walk... with no money out of pocket...
if the seller was not comfortable with the "condition" added to the deal.... fine we walked, no harm to foul... no out of pocket, as that too was part
of the "subject too".... no money till the end and all conditions were completed to my satisfaction per the contract ... you can hire someone to write
it in Spanish... used the Consulate...
qualifiers are used frequently in transactions of many types.. used in real estate they can be very effective.. for the seller and/or the buyer ...
13 years in with a bank commercial and sfr, with a lot of my time working in SAD moving crap off the books .... .. and also worked with the trust
department ... in Regulatory Affairs and/or risk management ...
thanks it all helps... and it is not really that hard to buy a house, anywhere.... the steps are pretty much the same... that said.. buying a home in
Mexico, is not the same as buying a house in the United States... the Constitution of Mexico gives the Government charge over all property.
Data bases and their access is much harder... records pulls are also much harder... found a company which did it.. used to use Companies like these in
the States ... one can go and copy and/or obtain any and all information under the Freedom of Information Act (which Mexico also has) for a "fee"...
in the states it was $150 per record pull.. with building, fire and health... extended pulls would cost more, if a property had "history"... simple
cost per page to copy the file .... where ever it was and how big...
Money talks BS walks....
Good thread.. it all helps....
[Edited on 10-2-2010 by wessongroup]
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Osprey
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Mike, thanks for that. Gnu does often site references for his facts but sometimes his scope, his brush is too broad for that. It is impossible for Gnu
or anyone to have as much knowledge of all things Baja as he spews and his bundles are suspect.
Crapshoot? For the millions of gringos who now have homes and condos and land all over Mexico? For all the millions to come? All those who use a
realtor are crazy? Preposterous!!! In Baja Sur the realtors are trying very hard to self-regulate with outfits like AMPI. All the transactions end at
the notario signing so realtor or direct, that recording is formal and standardized.
FYI Everything is for sale for a price? Nope. A ridiculous statement.
How could he even guess how many realty transactions there are per day/month/year that are handled by realtors vs buyer/seller/notario? Mexicans are
just beginning to record realty transactions – they feared and distrusted regulators so millions of transactions went unrecorded. Google and computers
and modernization in pueblos is changing all of that.
If it is ejido land, it would have to undergo the deed process and the realtor us not a part of that process. Gringo buyers would rarely deal with a
seller one would call ejiditario because without the subdivision, the escritura in hand the seller has nothing to sell.
What is a crapshoot is how anyone in the transaction can set a reliable figure for market value. In my pueblo some of the realtors set a handsome
price to entice a listing to sell, putting the property immediately off the market. Then they go without a commission for a year or two until they can
talk the seller into lowering the price. Not the best, open and honest way to approach the process.
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gnukid
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion: however one should refer to specific points if your goal is to counter another opinion, generally in a forum one
would quote the statements you disagree with and counter those with new or better "facts".
In this case, I am making a very simple point about the term "agency" in Baja Real Estate. I have not criticized any of the aforementioned agents
personally, in fact I know them personally to be congenial and probably well intended, however, the issue is simple.
In the USA the word Real Estate Agent connotes, denotes and implies legal license requirements and responsibilities, A failure to comply is legal
grounds for recourse for negligence. In California this can mean that the two separate brokers, one for the buyer and one for the seller are legally
and financially responsible to do their job correctly. If any number of circumstances goes wrong the agency must pay the costs to rectify the
circumstances. And they pay dearly for their negligence.
That doesn't mean there are no problems in California RE agency, or misleading loan agents as well, however there is recourse.
In comparison, in Baja there are people who call themselves RE Agents but they do not perform the role of agent. They also have no license, no proven
education or required responsibility.
In this case the word AGENCY carries emotional and legal connotations that the word does not denote. The person in Baja claiming to be an AGENT is in
fact not your AGENT.
I know this. This irritates me. I know this personally, when I have met people calling themselves an agent, I asked some questions and realized that
not only did they not understand the process of AGENCY, they also knew very little about the actual process of the property sale in Baja, the NOTARIA
has legal responsibility, license and must do the work. The BANK completes the FIDICOMISO. There are steps to confirm title, transfer title and
register title.
In Baja there are many people claiming to be AGENT who would like to double end a deal, that is they claim to represent the buyer and seller, which is
impossible to do ethically. Furthermore when questioned about the process, about the taxes, the microfiche of lots and owners, the notario process
they really know very little and often times do not even go to meet the notario nor do they check the receipts for paid bills, from water, gas,
lights, taxes etc... so, what is irritating to me, about these very nice people and neigbors who call themselves AGENTS, is that they would like %10
of a transaction, often trying to double -end the deal (removing any chance of acting in your favor) they may pad deals with cushions and deposits
they cash themsleves, they have no responsibility, no fiduciary responsibility to you as their client, they may have no knowledge or background in RE
and have little desire to run around and push papers (claiming that you need a lawyer or someone else to do that).
In fact, the issue is so simple that it is laughable, there is no such thing as RE AGENCY in Baja.
The only thing possible is a helpful person who is willing to push the papers, who speaks english and spanish and is a kind, capable negotiator. This
is has a set value in the area of $1000 for about 10-20h hours in the region.
On the other hand, when you see an office that promotes Codwell Banker, or Century 21 Real Estate in Baja, in fact it is not and you would be very
hard pressed to find anyone in that office with the slightest understanding of the legal issues, the process and the responsibilities associated with
a PROPERTY TRANSACTION.
I know this because I earned a license once, I have participated in owning ten homes, I know or met most every major agent from Marin to Cabo socially
and I have spoken with both owners, notarios, people calling themselves agents, lots of pretty girts and handsome guys etc... and over a long time I
have found out that in fact this is a case where words cause emotional associations and reactions which are not warranted and in so doing leave a gap
of responsibility, whereas the buyer expects certain things and projects their expectation on a person calling themselves an agent while in fact no
such agency exists and no such responsibility.
If people knew this coming in they would know they need to do their own DUE DILIGENCE.
It is also irritating to me , (because I care about people) that some people want to move to baja and buy but they won't give themselves 15 minutes to
educate themselves. And worse that there are people who do live here, and have for years who would perpetuate this misleading use of words to mislead
new buyers with connotations not worthy of the circumstances.
Finally, I have said nothing that should hurt anyone personally, and only things that wouyld help everyone, especially those acting in support of Bien
Raices transactions in Los Barriles, I only hope that some people will be more encouraged to go do the work either as assistants to transactions or as
the buyer/seller (which is all that, drive to the Catastro, check the microfiche, whose lot is it? Who paid the taxes last? Go to a Notaria, heck go
to all of them, ask questions if they do not know the answer see if they will do research to help, the Notaria works for their money, the Catastro is
your office to use.
[Edited on 10-3-2010 by gnukid]
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gnukid
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
Mike, thanks for that. Gnu does often site references for his facts but sometimes his scope, his brush is too broad for that. It is impossible for Gnu
or anyone to have as much knowledge of all things Baja as he spews and his bundles are suspect.
Crapshoot? For the millions of gringos who now have homes and condos and land all over Mexico? For all the millions to come? All those who use a
realtor are crazy? Preposterous!!! In Baja Sur the realtors are trying very hard to self-regulate with outfits like AMPI. All the transactions end at
the notario signing so realtor or direct, that recording is formal and standardized.
FYI Everything is for sale for a price? Nope. A ridiculous statement.
How could he even guess how many realty transactions there are per day/month/year that are handled by realtors vs buyer/seller/notario? Mexicans are
just beginning to record realty transactions – they feared and distrusted regulators so millions of transactions went unrecorded. Google and computers
and modernization in pueblos is changing all of that.
If it is ejido land, it would have to undergo the deed process and the realtor us not a part of that process. Gringo buyers would rarely deal with a
seller one would call ejiditario because without the subdivision, the escritura in hand the seller has nothing to sell.
What is a crapshoot is how anyone in the transaction can set a reliable figure for market value. In my pueblo some of the realtors set a handsome
price to entice a listing to sell, putting the property immediately off the market. Then they go without a commission for a year or two until they can
talk the seller into lowering the price. Not the best, open and honest way to approach the process. |
It seems to me that there are many of you that simply do not get out much enough to know what is going on. I hope that is more of a compliment than an
insult.
In order to know how many transactions exist, this is what I did, I went to each notaria and asked how many transactions and whether or not there were
agents and what function they completed. I also waited in the office for a while to view the traffic, I went to a bar where abogados go, I asked them
how many transactions they complete this month versus last year, and how many were done with agents and what function they completed, also I asked how
many transactions had fidicomisos. I also asked the banks. This is easy to do if you live nearby the offices and apparently not something you would do
if you live far away or have no interests.
The reason I did this was because I looked for a place to buy for years and what I got was run around from people calling themselves agents. It was
incredibly frustrating. So I decided to find out what transactions were occurring and with whom by asking. I was interested.
My survey of transactions was unscientific because I relied on the people to tell me the numbers, but the results have some validity, and more so than
asking people calling themselves RE Agents. The majority of transactions of property are person to person with few claiming agency representation.
There are fewer and fewer transactions of high value and many more of low value under 1,000,000mn.
The other conclusion is that there is no such thing as LEGAL AGENCY in Baja. The area of Bien Raices which is defined by licensing names such as
Codwell banker or Century 21 as well as all those with OFFICE of REAL ESTATE AGENCY make up a small number of actual transactions. The name OFFICE of
REAL ESTATE AGENCY is misleading in Baja.
Transactions which are associated with people claiming to be RE AGENTS would therefore require that you ask questions of this "agent" to discover are
they doing due dilligence or not? What is their role specifically? and be careful what you sign with them and what you agree to as there is no
formula, each interaction presents an entirely different situation, new variables, more chances for something to go wrong. Why add this agent to the
buyer seller relationship?
Hopefully those interested in buying property will take this info and learn that you need to walk the streets and talk to people and spend time
somewhere and get to know the neighbors in order to purchase in Baja-that's just how it works.
The one rule in property transactions is that everything has a price-this means that there is a market value for every property-the market value is
the price that a buyer and seller can agree on. Do not let an "agent" get in the way of a meeting of the minds.
[Edited on 10-3-2010 by gnukid]
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capt. mike
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"In order to know how many transactions exist, this is what I did, I went to each notaria and asked how many transactions and whether or not there
were agents and what function they completed. I also waited in the office for a while to view the traffic, I went to a bar where abogados go, I asked
them how many transactions they complete this month versus last year, and how many were done with agents and what function they completed, also I
asked how many transactions had fidicomisos. I also asked the banks. This is easy to do if you live nearby the offices and apparently not something
you would do if you live far away or have no interests."
i smell BS.....why would someone do this on their own time? and why would the prospectees want to be bothered and actually give their personal biz
info to some stranger - and even if they did how could you prove the veracity of the data taken?
there are no comps stats used in mexico that i have found.
maybe that will change.
they need a computerized MLS or CoStar system and then you will have verifiable facts on all RE transactions.
and county recorder's offices would help too.
3rd world biz style ...pure and simple.
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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bajafreaks
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Geeeeez why does a simple request for a realtor recommendation lead to this? Have a drink. 
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Skeet/Loreto
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Experience --No Bull Puckey==
1. Locate the Property you are interested in.
2.Contact the Owners and ask for Current Documents. Make Copies.
3. Contact a good Noterioin La Paz such as Manuel Esquierda.
4.Have him complete the Transcaction,
My advice is to form your own Corp. Makes things Easier.
When the Loreto Bay Village thing started and all the Hot Shot Realators and Salesmen came into being things changed.
It happens all over when a Market gets Hot there is about 200 of these Hot shots who head for the Area,
Take your time, buy from the owner if Possible.
Skeet
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gnukid
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When having a discussion which attempts to get to the facts some discourse may be required in order to understand what where when how why, this
process is sometimes referred as rhetorical discussion or the trivium method. Basically we look at the arguments put forth and questions and ask
ourselves which is logical, true and which are fallacies, false and misleading.
In the pursuit of truth there are many people who engage in an appeal to fallacies, they may do this because they have been misled or because they
seek to mislead, in either case there are many examples of logical fallacies, some examples are those who make another similar argument which is
easily disproved, another is the ad hominem attack or attack on someone's personality instead of the merits of the argument. An example of the
logical fallacy of the ad hominem attack is well he is a gosh darn liberal, or those conservatives spend too much etc...
There are at least 50 primary common appeals to logical fallacy and 200 which have been identified. Another simple example is, well who cares anyway,
and it's just the way it is which are common fallacies used here too.
A logical argument would include some specific point substantiated by some statements pertaining to facts.
Perhaps in discussion here we could work toward logical rhetorical discussion and learn to recognize the appeals to logical fallacy as false
arguments.
In any case returning to the point of this thread, the is a simple difference in property transactions here in Baja versus the USA, the difference is
in baja there is no definition of RE Agency, there is no license, education, legal or financial responsibility.
In general in Baja there is no risk put forth as RE Agent as there is in the USA where an agent carries the responsibility to serve the clients best
interests and to ensure all statements are true. The lack of risk and responsibility in Baja should be recognized as such and therefore the
recompensation of services to assist in sales should be proportionally adjusted downward to reflect the lack of risk.
For example, in Baja an Bien Raices assistant could be compensated a flat fee of $1000 to be present at all meetings, act as translator and paper
pusher, just as one expects, like a visa expiditer. A sellers staging person should be compensated as well a flat rate for rental of plants or
cleaning etc...
Percentages of sales in the area of %10 or double-ended assistants is inappropriate. The trend in baja to demand %10 or more from an person claiming
to be an AGENT while effectively not taking any risk or responsibility has hurt the market considerably, both by raising the costs and expectations,
and also by leaving a gap of responsibility in the eyes of the buyer who generally expects a similar relationship as he/she have come accustomed to in
other countries such as USA.
To those who think I am belaboring an unimportant issue, you have two options one clear one is to not read what I am writing, the other is to read it
and disregard it.
To those who wonder why I am interested in this subject, it is for many reasons. I am interested in how things work, I am interested in Mexico, I am
interested in economy how prices and rates change inordinately and I am interested in understanding how to encourage people to be buyer beware so they
do not loose their life savings or pay extraordinary fees. Generally, I would like to see people succeed in their dreams, if yours is to live in Los
Barriles it would be nice to know how things work.
Now we could digress into stories about people claiming to be agents in LB who sold arroyo land, or who failed to check the liens on property or who
caused great delays in sales effectively hurting the sale price, and others who failed to serve clients best interests. But, apparently specific
allegations are not tolerated on BN only ad hominem personal attacks. Why is that?
[Edited on 10-3-2010 by gnukid]
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gnukid
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This discussion leads me to consider a second minor point, as I travel often around baja and meet people, I often encounter properties for sale which
are listed as reasonable prices and others which are incredibly unreasonable.
When I meet new arivals, often here for 5 day runs, they say "we want to buy" cab you get us property cheap? Here lies the confusing conflict, in
order to engage in a contract person to person time is required to get to know one another and for a meeting of the minds. on the other hand it is
possible to pay top dollar to a seller who could care less about the buyer, their plans or personality.
For too often I meet fly by night visitors who would can't change their mindset enough to even greet a seller formally so they do require an
intermediary who all too often inflates the price exponentially.
To those seeking land in LB, it seems to me that about 1/3 at least of the homes are for sale directly or indirectly, if you have an interest in one,
seek out the owner, ask neighbors for contact infor for homeowners, introduce yourself and begin the person to person process of property transaction.
From my understanding there are many people willing to negotiate and who would like to sell but for various aforementioned reasons the prices and
process is circumvented by the very people artificially placed between sellers and buyer. Do your homework.
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john68
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This is a pretty good website for East Cape real estate., both for sale by owner and listings by real estate agents.
http://www.bajawaterfrontproperty.com/
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Osprey
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"Hello, Señor Lopez, notario # 21, this is Mr. Gnu of La Paz. I've been trying to get you on the phone for several days. I would like to meet with you
tomorrow afternoon at 3PM to get some information from you about the number of realty transactions you have recorded over the last few years that were
handled by realtors versus those without realtors."
"No, no, I can't pay you. I just need the information for this chat board thing. I'll need a few days with you to go through the platte book and have
your girls pull files so we can look at the fideacomisos, the transaction notes, maybe the settlement agreement. See these people on the chat board
are giving me a hard time and I ......" Click.
[Edited on 10-3-2010 by Osprey]
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capt. mike
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hahahahahaha
osprey you nailed it big time.
gnu kid - you have too much time on your hands... it is clear in what you write, long boring prose.
sorry - you have no credulity with me.
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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