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woody with a view
PITA Nomad
Posts: 15939
Registered: 11-8-2004
Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
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that is awesome! where did you find it?
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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If there is any place South of Baja to live like they do in the States that is the Place.
Oh so many years ago Tio don O'Neil would go to Blanca, stand in Waist deep water and cast for 30 to 40 Lb Dorado.
It is a beautiful place and I am sure they hooked into the Well{One and Only} up in the Mountains that was Dug and developed by an old Friend.
Loreto is ruined for me, but if you can live in an Area like that so be it.
Good luck; Hope you don;t run out of WATER
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Bajahowodd
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9274
Registered: 12-15-2008
Location: Disneyland Adjacent and anywhere in Baja
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Water? I'll go out on a limb here and say that they have their own desal plant. Just like all the mega-resorts built in the Cabo area in the last 25
years.
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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No Wodd. No desalt Plants yet and it will take a whole bunch of People and Money to afford one small one.
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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Just a note on the desal lant:
yes they have built one
NO they cannot discharge the salmuera (waste) into the sea as the regulations of Marine Park prohibits it
Will there be anyone to monitor this? Unlikely. Was supposed to be my job when I was Loreto Coastkeeper but I quit the job because that NGO doesn't
do anything. I felt the low pay and stress and their trying to convert me into someone who makes promises that I cannot deliver, plus painting a big
target on myself was just not worth it. The resort says they will inject it into the ground but of course that will cost so much more and well
they're not exactly turning a profit. My guess is that they'll dump it right into the park water because that will save them millions of dollars per
year. Maybe they'll install "magic pipes" like the cruise ships do.
Does Loreto run out of water to the timeshare people can have plenty? Well not yet but that did happen while Loreto Bay was in construction. Their
use has been reduced. Believe me, this is an issue the people are watching closely and will fight over and the towns folk will win in the long run.
Water availability, or lack of will certainly impede plans for big development here.
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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Thanks Pam. Good Report>
The Water fight is just starting to surface here in the States and when it gets Nasty it will be nasty,'
Keep up the good Work.
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Thanks Pam. Good Report>
The Water fight is just starting to surface here in the States and when it gets Nasty it will be nasty,'
Keep up the good Work. |
nasty I know, esta listo mi machete y yo se como usarlo
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Bajahowodd
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9274
Registered: 12-15-2008
Location: Disneyland Adjacent and anywhere in Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
Just a note on the desal lant:
yes they have built one
NO they cannot discharge the salmuera (waste) into the sea as the regulations of Marine Park prohibits it
Will there be anyone to monitor this? Unlikely. Was supposed to be my job when I was Loreto Coastkeeper but I quit the job because that NGO doesn't
do anything. I felt the low pay and stress and their trying to convert me into someone who makes promises that I cannot deliver, plus painting a big
target on myself was just not worth it. The resort says they will inject it into the ground but of course that will cost so much more and well
they're not exactly turning a profit. My guess is that they'll dump it right into the park water because that will save them millions of dollars per
year. Maybe they'll install "magic pipes" like the cruise ships do.
Does Loreto run out of water to the timeshare people can have plenty? Well not yet but that did happen while Loreto Bay was in construction. Their
use has been reduced. Believe me, this is an issue the people are watching closely and will fight over and the towns folk will win in the long run.
Water availability, or lack of will certainly impede plans for big development here. |
Maybe I'm just a rube, but I would have thought that given the Fonatur involvement, the whole fresh water and waste water thing would have been
concluded.
I was under the impression that in the Cabo area, all new developments had to provide for their own fresh water through desal, and had to have
approved means to deal with waste.
Why would that not apply to Loreto?
Or, as I think aloud, is this Villas project beyond the borders of the Fonatur reach??
Always wondered, given how far South this project was, whether they were looking to benefit from the Fonatur cachet ( the developmental improvements
in the Loreto area, but be beyond its restrictions?)
I dunno.
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LaTijereta
Super Nomad
Posts: 1192
Registered: 8-27-2003
Location: Loreto
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The Villa's project is still inside the Loreto Marine Park..
Democracy is like two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin (1759)
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bajabeachbabe
Nomad
Posts: 150
Registered: 9-11-2006
Location: Loreto,
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Mood: Loving life
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As someone who is at the moment going through the environmental application process with SEMARNAT to build in the marine park in Loreto, I know that
no one gets a "free pass" to break the environmental laws - not even Mexican federal organizations such as FONATUR. Within the last year all work was
stopped on a FONATUR project in Loreto since they didn't have the proper permits.
Anyone who has recently built within the marine park knows that the minute you start moving dirt PROFECA arrives on your beach to make sure you have
all your permits.
As Pam points out, the desal plant for the Villa Group is designed to dispose of the saline into the ground. With a large system like that, I can't
see that it would make sense for them to circumvent the system. Can't you just see running a garden hose into the sea??? I don't think so. They had
to file an environmental impact statement (MIA) for more than just the desal plant and had to go through numerous inspections. SEMARNAT can inspect
their facility at any time and basically shut them down and fine them if they vary from what they submitted on their MIA. This is what we have been
told about our project from our environmental engineer. We won't be moving any dirt or even a plant until we have our approved MIA. And then, if we
deviate from anything we submitted, we need to file a new application.
I for one am glad that the Mexican government is stepping up to try to protect the marine park and the future of the Sea of Cortez.
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GrummanRV
Newbie
Posts: 10
Registered: 11-10-2010
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On the water question; The resort is getting a large portion of their water (by tanker truck) from the Fonatur owned well above Puerto Escondido.
Unfortunatley this well also feeds Trupui RV Park, Puerto Escondido and the village of Juncalito.
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajabeachbabe
As someone who is at the moment going through the environmental application process with SEMARNAT to build in the marine park in Loreto, I know that
no one gets a "free pass" to break the environmental laws - not even Mexican federal organizations such as FONATUR. Within the last year all work was
stopped on a FONATUR project in Loreto since they didn't have the proper permits.
Anyone who has recently built within the marine park knows that the minute you start moving dirt PROFECA arrives on your beach to make sure you have
all your permits.
As Pam points out, the desal plant for the Villa Group is designed to dispose of the saline into the ground. With a large system like that, I can't
see that it would make sense for them to circumvent the system. Can't you just see running a garden hose into the sea??? I don't think so. They had
to file an environmental impact statement (MIA) for more than just the desal plant and had to go through numerous inspections. SEMARNAT can inspect
their facility at any time and basically shut them down and fine them if they vary from what they submitted on their MIA. This is what we have been
told about our project from our environmental engineer. We won't be moving any dirt or even a plant until we have our approved MIA. And then, if we
deviate from anything we submitted, we need to file a new application.
I for one am glad that the Mexican government is stepping up to try to protect the marine park and the future of the Sea of Cortez.
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well since you addressed me specifically, I have news for you and you're not going to like it. those environmental laws are for regular folks like
you and me, not for big important and influential people, large agencies or big business. Don't move any plants on your land but just remember that
Danzante Resort and El Santuario went through hell with semarnat and profepa on environmental impacts in order to "not disturb the environment" and
just look at what's happened on that same spot. Your "garden hose" remark shows your ignorance. I am happy for you that you believe the government
agencies will "protect us", but the fact is that they won't. the strict and restrictive rules are for regular folks like us, not important people
with teams of lawyers to get them around the loopholes, with money to pay off officials to look the other way, invest in political campaigns and buy
off everyone they have to in order to conduct business as usual. Tedious and restrictive environmental laws create monopolies and push little people
like us out. Your environmental engineer is telling you want you want to hear, I am telling you the truth. But you are right about one thing,
nobody gets a "free pass" to impact the environment around here!
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Bajahowodd
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9274
Registered: 12-15-2008
Location: Disneyland Adjacent and anywhere in Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by GrummanRV
On the water question; The resort is getting a large portion of their water (by tanker truck) from the Fonatur owned well above Puerto Escondido.
Unfortunatley this well also feeds Trupui RV Park, Puerto Escondido and the village of Juncalito. |
I admit that I'm a total rube about this.
But it seems to me that the Villa project may very well be able to survive on trucked-in water in the short haul (pun intended).
However, given what I would guess to be very low occupancy rates in the near future, along with their plan to triple or quadruple the size of the
resort, there's no way they will be able to function with trucked-in water for long.
And, as someone has already so eloquenlty posted, the rules and the laws unfortunately do not apply evenly across the spectrum.
This developer is a major force in the Mexican economy.
However, I would gladly defer to anyone out there with greater knowledge of the situation to tell me, that given the distance from Loreto proper that
this resort was built, are they beyond the zone controlled by Fonatur??
Obviously, they seek to benefit from many of the infrastructure improvements, including the airport, but the thought just entered my mind, is that
they may actually be beyond reach of Fonatur.
Please help me on this.
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: gone fishin'
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GrummanRV thanks for the report.
Here's a list of a few local environmental violations from right off the top of my head that you probably already are aware of. These are so far
going unchecked and nobody has been held responsible:
sewage leakage from pumping stations on the malecon into the park waters, just look at the seaweed species and its lush growth in that nutrified water
as evidence (conanp and semarnat jurisdiction)
toxic burning of the municipal landfill the vapor of which and smoke affects the entire town and often settles on the shoreline north of town, I have
many photos taken from the water of this (semarnat and conanp)
untreated waste discharge into Puerto Escondido from moored boats and a ww treatment facility that does not function properly (conanp and semarnat)
these three things have been happening for several years, many people are fully aware, and all are blatant violations of several environmental laws in
at least two dependencies (conanp and semarnat). Also, all of these violations are taking place inside of the marine park (conanp). In the case of
the dump, storm runoff from that arroyo is affecting the clam beds inside the park's waters. How do I know this, much of this affects the commercial
fishing, I am also part of a productive fishing cooperative.
so? how exactly is the government protecting us in these instances?
I think most know the answer to this.
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: gone fishin'
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the FONATUR zone
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
| Quote: | Originally posted by GrummanRV
On the water question; The resort is getting a large portion of their water (by tanker truck) from the Fonatur owned well above Puerto Escondido.
Unfortunatley this well also feeds Trupui RV Park, Puerto Escondido and the village of Juncalito. |
I admit that I'm a total rube about this.
But it seems to me that the Villa project may very well be able to survive on trucked-in water in the short haul (pun intended).
However, given what I would guess to be very low occupancy rates in the near future, along with their plan to triple or quadruple the size of the
resort, there's no way they will be able to function with trucked-in water for long.
And, as someone has already so eloquenlty posted, the rules and the laws unfortunately do not apply evenly across the spectrum.
This developer is a major force in the Mexican economy.
However, I would gladly defer to anyone out there with greater knowledge of the situation to tell me, that given the distance from Loreto proper that
this resort was built, are they beyond the zone controlled by Fonatur??
Obviously, they seek to benefit from many of the infrastructure improvements, including the airport, but the thought just entered my mind, is that
they may actually be beyond reach of Fonatur.
Please help me on this. |
They did not develop on FONATUR land like Loreto Bay attempted to, or like Puerto Escondido is inside of. I would imagine they bought the land all
around el Santuario and Danzante Resort, which was privately held, for a very cheap price. Now they own it all. Ensenada Blanca is inside the
confines of the Park and as we all must follow the rules of the park (JAJAJA) they must also follow them. There are many agencies who must issue
permits to construct on the coastline and all of these agencies permits must be granted before construction begins, but on top of all of them are also
the permits from the Park. Those park rules trump all the rest and are understandably more restrictive.
Hey I welcome development if it embraces local tradition and includes us all and most importantly follows the rules as the rest of us have to. Its
when the rules are bent, or when public funds are used for private ventures that I feel obligated to speak out and educate my fellow citizens on what
is occuring, not roll over and hope my wallet fills up with the crumbs of these big developments. My motivation is not money it is a bright future
for my children and compaņeros.
[Edited on 6-5-2011 by flyfishinPam]
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805gregg
Super Nomad
Posts: 1344
Registered: 5-21-2006
Location: Ojai, Ca
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| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
Just a note on the desal lant:
yes they have built one
NO they cannot discharge the salmuera (waste) into the sea as the regulations of Marine Park prohibits it
Will there be anyone to monitor this? Unlikely. Was supposed to be my job when I was Loreto Coastkeeper but I quit the job because that NGO doesn't
do anything. I felt the low pay and stress and their trying to convert me into someone who makes promises that I cannot deliver, plus painting a big
target on myself was just not worth it. The resort says they will inject it into the ground but of course that will cost so much more and well
they're not exactly turning a profit. My guess is that they'll dump it right into the park water because that will save them millions of dollars per
year. Maybe they'll install "magic pipes" like the cruise ships do.
Does Loreto run out of water to the timeshare people can have plenty? Well not yet but that did happen while Loreto Bay was in construction. Their
use has been reduced. Believe me, this is an issue the people are watching closely and will fight over and the towns folk will win in the long run.
Water availability, or lack of will certainly impede plans for big development here. |
They can't discharge desal waste, what about sewage?
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EdZeranski
Nomad
Posts: 290
Registered: 11-4-2008
Location: Ocean Beach/Borrego Springs
Member Is Offline
Mood: Si! Como no???
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New biggie sur de Loreto
| Quote: | Originally posted by b1
This whole project makes no sense to me either for a number of reasons. Here are a few:
In February 2007, I camped at Ensenada Blanca right where this developement is now located. Getting people back and forth from the resort to Loreto
will be both expensive and time consuming. My notes reflect that this is at least 25, and more like 27+ road miles to the town of Loreto.
I just went out there today to take a look..WAHZOO its big! 27.1 miles from the front entrance to the launch ramp in Loreto. Three miles off the main
road through an arroyo and Ensenada Blanco village but they are cutting a new path from the hotel to Hwy 1 to bypass the arroyo. I can see why. Debris
from the last gully washer is 8 - 10 ft up in the trees, must be some big flash floods out of Sierra Gigantica. The road crews are finally digging out
the washes under their new bridges so the storm run off will hopefully get down the bajada without taking the bridges along. Anyway it will still be
pretty isolated from Loreto. I heard the hotel builder has worked out some pkg deal with Alaska Airlines and have seen their vans at the airport and
in Loreto. |
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Bajahowodd
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9274
Registered: 12-15-2008
Location: Disneyland Adjacent and anywhere in Baja
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Gonna be interesting to watch, in that the Villa Group appears to really sticking their collective corporate neck out with this development.
The distance from the real local community is problematic. It would seem to me that folks staying at this project will be rather isolated.
It recalls for me the old days in the the development of Cabo. They built hotels with almost no parking spaces, figuring that visitors would either
stay on-site, or use cabs. Today, there is a booming rental car industry in Cabo.
And to be clear, even of one were to stay on Medano Beach, they could either walk to town, or a cab ride would be minimal. At Ensenada Blanca, a 27
mile cab ride is going to quite costly. Just saying....
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EdZeranski
Nomad
Posts: 290
Registered: 11-4-2008
Location: Ocean Beach/Borrego Springs
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Mood: Si! Como no???
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Lotta diggin'
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Gonna be interesting to watch, in that the Villa Group appears to really sticking their collective corporate neck out with this development.
There is a lot of earth moving to do and it looks like the development folks are in for the long haul. They have barracks for the grunt
labor.....geeze...a lot of cash toward what end. Anyway, will panga fish two days then be back in the kayak by Sabado |
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abreojos
Nomad
Posts: 168
Registered: 2-9-2006
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Here are a few facts about the Villa Group:
They are politically and socially connected in Mexico.
They know what they are doing.
They can sell rooms in Loreto from their other resorts in Cabo and in Puerta Vallarta.
They don't really need tourist from Loreto to fill it.
A desal plant and electricity are no problem because all their resorts already have them.
Their construction is the best you can find. Their tactics can be very tough and even Mafia style.
They have the money to wait out the current economy.
There are lots of beaches I have camped on in Cabo that are now resorts. I am sure it was the same where ever you are from. Can't just add 5 billion
people to this planet in a life time without seeing this repeatedly happening so get use to it especially if you got kids and they want kids.
| Quote: | Originally posted by b1
This whole project makes no sense to me either for a number of reasons. Here are a few:
In February 2007, I camped at Ensenada Blanca right where this developement is now located. Getting people back and forth from the resort to Loreto
will be both expensive and time consuming. My notes reflect that this is at least 25, and more like 27+ road miles to the town of Loreto. This
development is actualy off Mex 1 at/near Ligui. I saw the new road going in off Mex 1 when I drove by this spring which will take a little distance
off, but folks aren't going to be walking into Loreto from the resort; or if they try it, my guess is it will be only once. Even water taxis would
be a significant trip (I'm guessing close to 20 miles or more each way) ... add some winter time Cortez winds and this will get interesting as well.
There is little fresh water at the resort site; so costs to operate this large of a place would seemingly be high just in this respect alone.
For us, airfare to Loreto has always been higher than to Cabo; sometimes considerably higher. So it would seem that if this resort is going to have
any long term chance of survival, the cost to fly into Loreto is going to have to become at least comparable to Cabo if not significantly less.
This winter I obseved what I thought was a lot of hotel and condo vacancy in the entire Cabo area. All things considered, I don't understand the
business plan/marketing plan for Ensenada Blanca that is going to compete with the Cabo corridor. Especially if the seven proposed hotels at Ensenada
Blanca actually get built. And what are all the people going to do who are crammed into this one area? This beach area, etc. just isn't that big.
I could go on and on but.............
The one bright spot, at least in the short term, is the folks who do visit or live in Loreto proper may benefit if airfares are lowered to try to
subsidize Ensenada Blanca time share sales. b1 |
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