Originally posted by lkane
The best resolution to this issue is compromise. That road has been utilized for many years. "Off roaders" come in many forms, not all good, but not
all bad; some like nature and creation and some like beer. Kinda like alot of people out there.
Smashing out a window with a shovel may not have been the best move. The Mikes road is too destroyed and too costly to doze. The fastest fix is the
doze that old road around your property and leave the gate unlocked. A locked gate wont stop anyone who is late on the trail, cold and needing a warm
destination. Personally I dont go through locked gates but like I said, I hear about these issues constantly and have had these conversations many
times with both land owners and off roaders.
You may live there "100% " of the time but there are still certain things you may not be able to change. We are gringos in Mexico. That always
requires solid discernment. We cant expect Mexicans to think like Canadians or Americans.
There are off roaders out there that would assist in a compromise where all are winners. Try asking for help to resolve the issue from those who you
currently dont like. You may find more people interested in helping to resolve the issue than not.
I was not involved in this recent mishap. I just think Astro is taking the wrong approach.
Very well stated, Ikane. Perhaps, a forum for discussion could bring this problem to light with the larger group of 4WD and Motorcycle "Off-Roader"
groups? As a dues-paying member of Cal4Wheel, I would be happy to bring this to light - if these 4 Wheel Drive clubs are Cal4Wheel-member clubs.
This problem will take cooperation in order to find a solution.
As a Baja 4WD aficionado, this development affects people like myself who enjoys a great 4WD run, *and* collects my own trash and will not operate my
Jeep while under the influence.
Ken we wish the majority would be like your Cal4Wheeler group but sadly only 2 out of all the Mexico based 4X4 clubs have been respectful. The actions
of groups like the one from Mexicali does negatively affect you guys I'm sure. I'm also sure Lance and Rudy (Racers and Ranchers) get very frustrated
when groups like this undo all the positive relations that they painstakingly tried to foster.
But its not just the Mexican 4X4 groups that have been acting badly. Just 4 days after our run-in with the group from Mexicali we had some riders come
through and blow by our gate by the house. Later some more came but we stopped them as they were trying to pass. Turned out they were a group from
British Columbia and were on their way to the coast. We explained to them politely that it was private property and they needed to let us know
beforehand. Turns out they sent the 1st riders out to the front gate to cut through the fence, marked where they cut for the others to follow! So
those guys knew and planned this and then played innocent with us!
Can you appreciate how this kind of behavior makes us feel? Its basically them saying f-you to us! Even though we've been working for well over a
year to get the word out so as to minimize the inconvenience to others....
Maybe you don't agree with how we have reacted Ken, but eventually there is a breaking point when people show blatent disregard for private property.
Of course Ken if you want to pass through the ranch you are welcome to, we have some beautiful spots to camp out!
cheers
Mike
[Edited on 2-21-2012 by astrobaja]
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
So, prior communication with you along with respect for your property (and not throwing trash) along with THEFT are the problems. Is there a way you
could communicate with Mike's regarding this problem regarding communication and access to your property - say, with flyers given out at Mike's Sky
Rancho, and maybe Valle de la Trinidad and the Pemex along Hwy 1 near San Telmo?
I doubt 4WD clubs would be behind theft at your facilities, but communication and permission to access your land can possibly be approached with
information given out to Off-Road enthusiasts.
Ken I don't think theft is an issue with any of the groups after all they are in it for an enjoyable excursion. Its mostly a vandelism issue.
We did try to tell Mikes about the gates prior to them going up, we told them that if they could tell groups heading our way then we could be ready
for them an leave gates open. But the feeling we got from the folks at Mikes was that they really were not too interested....they seemed not to care
either way. Might have to setup a meeting with Mike Leon himself, who knows if the info we relayed even ever got to him.
Maybe the idea with flyers at Mikes would be a good idea especially if alternate routes were made know on some easy to read maps.
I'm sure we will come to some sort of arrangement eventually but bottom line is a few of the clubs are not welcome here anymore.
[Edited on 2-21-2012 by astrobaja]
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
Signs placed at junctions with the alternate routes to avoid AstroBaja's property would be much better than for them to ride/ drive more miles to the
property line to find out they have to go back to the previous junction... to keep it friendly, that is.
"ROAD CLOSED 5.4 MILES/ 8.6 KMS. AHEAD TO ALL TRAFFIC, TURN SOUTH HERE" for example (in Spanish too).
Yep tried that David, but the signs got taken down. Thinking now of putting up some thing like a concrete pylon with the info on it. Something that
can't be taken down or easy de-faced
Once the exact alternate route gets hammered out we can pass out maps to future tours
Also having a sign near Mikes where that northern loop Tom was talking about on his map would be great too, seeing as the southern loop is much more
difficult as you get close to Coyote.
[Edited on 2-21-2012 by astrobaja]
[Edited on 2-21-2012 by astrobaja]
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
Hope it all works out well for you Mike, and that you make more friends and less enemies with your development.
Mike's Sky Rancho began as a pilot's recreational get-away with fishing and horseback riding to go along with the rooms, meals and swimming pool...
soon he got more 4WD guests and adapted.
Once the first SCORE Baja race began using Mike's as a major checkpoint (1974), more off roaders came to love the place... and when the government
made new demands on how Mike had to pay for maintaining security as his airport, he said no way... and just closed it forever... and Mike's Sky Rancho
became more like Mike's Off Road Rancho and he gets off road groups all the time now.
Rancho Coyote has followed that formula... and that should be enough in the area, so I don't think you need to change your theme to stay in
business... In fact, based on the need to keep dust levels low, I am sure it is the last thing you want!
I hope it all works out and I look forward to meeting you up there someday (I love astronomy, afterall)!
AstroBaja:
Here is a tip. I lived behing Caliente racetrack and would ride pavement and hit dirt between TJ and Cantamar or TJ to Santa Veronica.
These two popular dirt roads would take bikers and 4x4 and in the early 70's i would take my .410 or .22 for fun hunting. Anyway as soon as area
started growing, ranch owners (rancho el gato and el gatito close to Cantamar)got feed up with bikers and 4x4 crossing their private property thru the
dirt roads that were there before they were bought by them. They ended up grading alternate path, fencing and putting signs" to cantamar
right"...problem solved.
Same thing when hitting a section of pavemevent when doing a trip from rodrigues dam to valle de las palmas, you hit the highway for several miles
and then fork left onto fireroad that used to go thru rancho viejo(towards hacienda santa veronica) again owner got fed up, put a fancy gate and
detoured with signs onto camino vecinal towards santa veronica. same scenario in sierra de juarez around "el rayo" cant go left at el rayo..they have
alternate route miles down the road.
Same scenario by my house in valle de guadalupe leading to ojos following guadalupe wash, ranchers and locals have fenced and in a good mood charge
$$$ to go trhu, same by piedras gordas before ojos, they charge $$$ to go thru..make a profit if you cant block or. just repair route before beginning
of your property. fence it, put boulders, cut a big ditch and a big sign to use alternate route. Ejido comunity roads by law cannot be blocked, your
dirt "connection" between mike's upstream to las truchas concrete house that belonged to Salvador Hirales connecting to the "t" used to take you to
observatory and the now single track towards observatory camp gate was made "impassible my nature and the army back in early 80s,I remember back in
late 80s riding from mikes to your place only to find a big bulldozed mound with a fence blocking traffic to your property, so same thing can be done
again, build a big mound of dirt with rocks, put a barbed wire fence and make sure a sigh is posted stating "use alternate route".
Welcome to Nomad 'Pepe Baja'! Sounds like you have a lot of off roading under your belt! I have wanted to try to drive up to Corral de Sam above
Mike's and Astro's on that 'back way' to the observatory... Guess it is not passable to a 4WD anymore?
David:
Mucho gusto en conocerlos por este medio. In regards to your question, i have not ridden between mike's and rancho concepcion in over 6 years.
My last nice ride around that area was between mikes to el observatorio going upstream mike's and taking all the lefts at the "y" intersection taking
you to the park gate close to vallecitos(a fun 31/2 one way singletrack). Last motorycle trip started in valle de guadalupe were i have a house and
rode up past mikes to el coyote 2 years ago during the baja 1000 were we stayed at el coyote.
little bio on me :I am in my early 50's. Avid dirt biker that migrated to "family responsabilities(two 9 month twins and a 5 year old daughter)
Been living in Tijuana since 1969 when we moved from Ajo Arizona.
Started exploring dirt roads around Rodriguez dam when i was in secondary school in Tijuana. I am sure there are many folks here that remember how
nice Baja was when it did not explode onto what we are experiencing in regards to pavement, trash, fenced areas, drug crops, etc.
Issue that unfortunately with time, we are experiencing more and more often.
Land is shrinking with population,ranchers and communities are fencing areas we once knew as the killer route from "a to b".
Disrespect to new owners privacy and property are getting worse with the scenario that astrobaja is experiencing. pretty sure same issues caused many
land owners in sierra de juarez to fence and close once really nice routes towards valle t and laguna salada. WIsh a time machine could set us back to
late 70's.....no wories, no excessive pollution, no gates. happy trais to all
Originally posted by pepebaja
Started exploring dirt roads around Rodriguez dam when i was in secondary school in Tijuana. I am sure there are many folks here that remember how
nice Baja was when it did not explode onto what we are experiencing in regards to pavement, trash, fenced areas, drug crops, etc.
Pepebaja,
I traveled from La Presa Dam to Cantamar with a San Diego-based 4WD club and some friends from the Tijuana area, and recorded the event. Please let
me know what you think.
saw your video,Glad you enjoyed areas that only locals use.
you got started on the mostly built corredor 2000(corredor de la muerte) the area once they started building the blv 2000, it started filling up by
new development. i would start from blvd diaz ordaz and follow the "oleoducto"(pemex gas lines) to and the trail is now cut at cueros de venados. at
your video at time 7:34, that area is cueros de venados. that area before the blvd was made had a nice little store with cold sodas and snacks, once
it started growing with the pavement, it was easy for the cartels to start dumping bodies of executed people. as a matter of fact several years ago
around 13 youths were lined up and mowed down with ak47s. so much for safety close to TJ. Since the early 70's, I would enjoy riding and driving this
way to cantamar to eat at puerto nuevo lobster and then head back after a couple of cold ones. This trail also has a fork by mesa redonda that hooks
to a trail that takes you to valle de las palmas on towards santa veronica. Glad you guys had a blast. thank god the government is cracking down on
the cartels and all the areas seem to be "safe" again. thanks for the memories with the videos
I've noticed that over the years that off roaders have worn out their welcome in Northern Baja. Lots more locked gates and unwelcoming signs posted.
It's too bad, but we brought upon ourselves. I ride dirt bikes and we're always careful to leave gates the same way we find them open or closed.
There was a route we would take out of Mike's heading pretty much west to the Rio San Rafael where would follow the river bed almost to Colenet. Is
this near the area being discussed here?
The further south and the more remote the location the happier the locals are to see us.
We also did a run from Hwy. 3 (Valle las Palmas) across to Cantamar back in April, 2005... see photos: http://vivabaja.com/305/ We saw the old Gilbert Family Graveyard.
Originally posted by bent-rim
I've noticed that over the years that off roaders have worn out their welcome in Northern Baja. Lots more locked gates and unwelcoming signs posted.
It's too bad, but we brought upon ourselves. I ride dirt bikes and we're always careful to leave gates the same way we find them open or closed.
There was a route we would take out of Mike's heading pretty much west to the Rio San Rafael where would follow the river bed almost to Colenet. Is
this near the area being discussed here?
The further south and the more remote the location the happier the locals are to see us.
The road up from Mike's and Concepcion (Baja Dark Skies Inn) to Corral de Sam was originally a logging road, but operations never were performed. Here
is a 1962 map with newer additions penciled in:
Here is a 1978 Auto Club map that shows Concepcion:
Another map from the early 1970's:
A map I drew in Oct. 1972 (15 years old) the weekend we spent at Mike's and drove up to the observatory the first time:
2003 map with some mileage notes I recorded in 2005:
I posted a link to this thread for some 4WD enthusiasts in the San Diego/Tijuana region to read and possibly discuss among themselves (and us) in
order to search for solutions. The following are some opinions shared...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mexican constitution Art. 27 - "POR NINGUN MOTIVO PODRAN LOS EXTRANJEROS ADQUIRIR EL DOMINIO DIRECTO SOBRE TIERRAS Y AGUAS."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ We dont use this route, as a matter of fact, we never have. That doesnt mean that throwing trash and being disrespectful is to the land and others
is the way to go about this, but as I read allong this #### seems VERY pregudice. All he talks about is these Mexicans and these Mexican Clubs. #itch
is you dont like thes Mexicans and are not ok with these roads that were here Before you came here get the #### back to the US where you dont have to
put up with this.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Im sorry Ken. Realy I am. Dont mean to vent on your post, nor I mean to sound like this trash and disrespect is ok, but, well just saying. Maybe
I read it all wrong.....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ningun Extrangero ni Mexicano tiene derecho a impedir el libre paso a lo largo de todo el territorio nacional, desgraciadamente es una practica
que estan adoptando muchos, incluso los rancheros nacionales.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My point was to create a virtual dialogue, and it really went south due to the tone of the words used to describe the individuals. My response to the
4WD club members from the San Diego/Tijuana region... No hard feelings, I don't feel disrespect for your genuine thoughts/emotions regarding this. The land owner is CANADIAN, not AMERICAN. I do sense
the prejudice that you sense here. Stereotyping all MEXICAN 4WD clubs is not the way I roll. I will tell this land owner that he needs to respect
those in his newly adopted land.
An Open Letter to the 4WD Club of San Diego/Tijuana
This thread has brought out more NEGATIVE sentiment than comments related to the impending land closure. I wonder if more RESTRAINED and DIPLOMATIC
terms would bring about a more INCLUSIVE conversation? Who knows, but it is certainly worth trying...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yea, dont get me wrong, Im a US born from Mexican roots so I too feel both parts of these conversations. Like Tom said, this probably just went down
all the wrong way from both parties....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
White people jjejejejejejeje
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I responded by talking about my background, and hopefully we can discuss this topic without it falling back on RACE AND RACISM.
My Response to the 4WD Club members...
Because of my BLACK SKIN, I have been threatened, called ###GER, had groups of SKINHEADS threaten to ASSAULT me, all because they didn't like the part
of the PLANET where my forefathers EVOLVED. My BLACK SKIN is an ADAPTATION just like my BROWN eyes, my NOSE, etc. I still approach every WHITE person
as a potential friend, believing that they do not have HANGUPS or ISSUES with persons of my same race. My beautiful wife speaks SPANISH-only, and I
have noticed over the past 2 years that people here in the USA become TESTY when they hear SPANISH spoken aloud. Because of these recent experiences,
I know that BROWN PEOPLE are regularly treated like 2ND CLASS CITIZENS when they should not. I have had neighbors tell me that they HATE MEXICANS when
they have no reason to hate people with BROWN SKIN. I always shake my head and tell them that VERY GOOD PEOPLE COME FROM MEXICO. I explain that my
travels to MEXICO and BAJA have allowed me to make connections with GOOD PEOPLE who immediately treat me like family. They want to talk about
experiences in the USA and I tell them that I have been threatened, and given DIRTY LOOKS while traveling and living in the USA as well as in EUROPE
and SCANDINAVIA. But, these people do not cause me to STEREOTYPE all WHITES as the same. My wife and I discuss RACISM AND PREJUDICE almost on a daily
basis when she brings it up, how it affects her as a LATINA. I understand your frustrations, and I will do whatever I can to hold a clear dialogue
with the land owner who has issues with the individuals who travel near his home/place of business. PAZ!
Ken I think your 4 wheel drive buddies missed the point. It isn't about being Mexican. The point is they could have been a club from Denver or
Bakersfield and they were disrespectfull to the property owner.
"If it were lush and rich, one could understand the pull, but it is fierce and hostile and sullen.
The stone mountains pile up to the sky and there is little fresh water. But we know we must go back
if we live, and we don't know why." - Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." - Theodore Roosevelt
"You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them or to them." - Malcolm Forbes
"Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others
cry over small hurts, but not you. Let others leave their future in someone else's hands, but not you." - Jim Rohn
"The best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer." - Cunningham's Law
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