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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Still waiting for an answer to my question... but instead we get a lot of blah blah blah.
If the whales are not bothered and their numbers increase every year at Scammon's, despite the salt works there... why is salt works bad (for the
whales). I think only Shari or another whale expert can answer (and it has nothing to do with what people like or think about salt).
Maybe the objection has nothing to do with what is good or bad for whales, but instead is another power grab by one political mindset who use false
fear stories to get their way??? Just thinking of the Al Gore movie shown at public schools telling children that evil mankind were melting the ice
caps and killing polar bears.
Once again, my question:
"Just wondering why they are "terrible salt works" if at San Ignacio Lagoon... but the salt works at Ojo de Liebre (Scammon's) Lagoon is no problem at
all for the whales?" |
Your question was answered----it was about the lives of the local people and the environment --- whales were the poster children. Sorry your
comprehension is not working.
But your distortions are working well. Never did I say the salt was harming the whales---I said there is concern by some Mexican environmentalists
that it MIGHT harm them in the future. And I certainly never said anything about people liking or disliking salt.
And sorry you still cling to the Faux News denial of science, but that is your choice and your analogy is off the wall.
Once again---it does not matter what you think about any of it, nor does it matter that I think they made a good decision. It was about the LOCAL
people and THEIR land and THEIR lives.
[Edited on 3-3-2012 by DianaT]
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capt. mike
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they like salt. it makes for better buoyancy for the newborns so they can breathe easier and allow the calves to work less pushing them up for air
24/7 until they "get it" on their own.
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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Bajaboy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
| Quote: | Originally posted by generubin
...whales become the whales greatest defenders of the whale's right to exist in peace. Spending time with the whales in Baja is a life changing event.
Don't miss it, and don't feel selfish, you'll see the young whales appreciate you being there as much as you do.
[Edited on 3-3-2012 by generubin] |
And they made a GREAT poster child for the battle against putting the terrible salt works in that area! Talking with one of the ejido members at
Kuyima this year, he talked about how proud they were of having stopped the salt works--- both the people and the whales!
And while there might be a case made against the practice of "petting" a whale, I agree that it is what has kept them living in peace. All of this
has created work for the locals, and an awareness of protecting the environment. The facilities around the lagoon are eco friendly and the people
are very proud of all of it!
We try to go at least once or twice a year to San Ignacio and it is always different, and always a very special experience. It is an honor to be
accepted by whales. They are in charge out there and if they did not want to be friendly, well it would not be fun for the humans in those little
boats. |
Just wondering why they are "terrible salt works" if at San Ignacio Lagoon... but the salt works at Ojo de Liebre (Scammon's) Lagoon is no problem at
all for the whales? |
As I said, the whales were the Poster Children. And please remember, it was the LOCALS, the fishing co-ops who in the end prevailed and stopped the
destruction of the environment and wanted to protect their way of life and income levels. It is about THEM and not what outsiders want or think.
They are just really proud that big money did not win that battle and the poster children helped.
Also, I doubt you have ever driven the back way into Ojo de Liebre---the road from the Vizcaino road that is restricted. We took a friend to work
that way---he had permission to pass. It is a shortcut to GN, but only passable with permission.
The devastation there is horrible---it is really ugly. The new company even flooded an old cemetery and they were surprised when a body floated to
the top of one of the ponds. And the Mexican environmentalists do have concerns about what could happen to the whale lagoon as the ponds evaporate.
But it is there and is a part of Guerrero Negro.
But the LOCALS in the San Ignacio area are proud that they prevailed over the big money interests and their poster children helped them in their
battle.
On edit. Just some food for thought.
A friend told us that he would love to write a book addressed to all gringos---one that is about Baja California Sur and the people so that MAYBE the
gringos who visit and or live there would begin to understand who they are and quit trying to tell them what how to do things and what is "best" for
them. They do grow weary of attempted gringo education.
(He uses the term gringo when talking to us because we have told him that it is not offensive to us)
[Edited on 3-3-2012 by DianaT] |
I always find it odd when a person thinks he can speak for everyone else. That would be like me saying I can speak for the people of Southern
California. Now that's not to say that your friend doesn't have an interesting perspective. Speaking to our many friends in BCS, I can say that each
has a unique perspective. |
No, this particular person would never think he could speak for EVERYONE---but I know it sounded that way out of context of the conversation. Yes,
there are many unique perspectives, and their culture is different with each individual. On the other hand, the thing we hear the most from many
friends is the dislike of "gringo" education. While they differ in their ideas as to what should be done, it is their country and they are very proud
of their country and they want to do things their way---which ever way they argue about and end up choosing. They resent gringos thinking they
should lead the way to change; assisting and joining with Mexicans leading the way seems to be far more appreciated. Just our observations.
Then again, we have one local friend who is proud to be a Mexican, but he worships everything gringo--- He thinks EVERYTHING American is better
including the food and the beer. We tell him American beer is AWFUL. 
Bottom line, I believe, it is their country and we all are visitors and only there out of choice and because they allow us to be there. So while we
are happy the salt works did not happen, and other gringos think it should have happened, it was up to them to decide and they did.
[Edited on 3-3-2012 by DianaT] |
I agree with your observations. We all come to the table with different experiences, education, bias', etc. I think many are too quick to explain a
problem or situation without fully trying to understand it first. I am sure this is what your friend might be referring to.
I think it might be an American characteristic as I've heard it many times throughout my travels in Baja and Europe. I'd better be careful saying
this as I don't want to be accused of apologizing for the US by the Faux News fans. No there are multiple perspectives to most issues and we need to
be cognizant of this.
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David K
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Location: San Diego County
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Wow, the question had nothing to do with Americans, Fox News, or any of that... but since some of you like to turn it into politics, I gave a
political reply...
Here again was my original question, brought on by Diana T's anti salt works comment, in a whale watching thread:
"Just wondering why they are "terrible salt works" if at San Ignacio Lagoon... but the salt works at Ojo de Liebre (Scammon's) Lagoon is no problem at
all for the whales?"
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DianaT
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Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
| Quote: | Originally posted by generubin
...whales become the whales greatest defenders of the whale's right to exist in peace. Spending time with the whales in Baja is a life changing event.
Don't miss it, and don't feel selfish, you'll see the young whales appreciate you being there as much as you do.
[Edited on 3-3-2012 by generubin] |
And they made a GREAT poster child for the battle against putting the terrible salt works in that area! Talking with one of the ejido members at
Kuyima this year, he talked about how proud they were of having stopped the salt works--- both the people and the whales!
And while there might be a case made against the practice of "petting" a whale, I agree that it is what has kept them living in peace. All of this
has created work for the locals, and an awareness of protecting the environment. The facilities around the lagoon are eco friendly and the people
are very proud of all of it!
We try to go at least once or twice a year to San Ignacio and it is always different, and always a very special experience. It is an honor to be
accepted by whales. They are in charge out there and if they did not want to be friendly, well it would not be fun for the humans in those little
boats. |
Just wondering why they are "terrible salt works" if at San Ignacio Lagoon... but the salt works at Ojo de Liebre (Scammon's) Lagoon is no problem at
all for the whales? |
As I said, the whales were the Poster Children. And please remember, it was the LOCALS, the fishing co-ops who in the end prevailed and stopped the
destruction of the environment and wanted to protect their way of life and income levels. It is about THEM and not what outsiders want or think.
They are just really proud that big money did not win that battle and the poster children helped.
Also, I doubt you have ever driven the back way into Ojo de Liebre---the road from the Vizcaino road that is restricted. We took a friend to work
that way---he had permission to pass. It is a shortcut to GN, but only passable with permission.
The devastation there is horrible---it is really ugly. The new company even flooded an old cemetery and they were surprised when a body floated to
the top of one of the ponds. And the Mexican environmentalists do have concerns about what could happen to the whale lagoon as the ponds evaporate.
But it is there and is a part of Guerrero Negro.
But the LOCALS in the San Ignacio area are proud that they prevailed over the big money interests and their poster children helped them in their
battle.
On edit. Just some food for thought.
A friend told us that he would love to write a book addressed to all gringos---one that is about Baja California Sur and the people so that MAYBE the
gringos who visit and or live there would begin to understand who they are and quit trying to tell them what how to do things and what is "best" for
them. They do grow weary of attempted gringo education.
(He uses the term gringo when talking to us because we have told him that it is not offensive to us)
[Edited on 3-3-2012 by DianaT] |
I always find it odd when a person thinks he can speak for everyone else. That would be like me saying I can speak for the people of Southern
California. Now that's not to say that your friend doesn't have an interesting perspective. Speaking to our many friends in BCS, I can say that each
has a unique perspective. |
No, this particular person would never think he could speak for EVERYONE---but I know it sounded that way out of context of the conversation. Yes,
there are many unique perspectives, and their culture is different with each individual. On the other hand, the thing we hear the most from many
friends is the dislike of "gringo" education. While they differ in their ideas as to what should be done, it is their country and they are very proud
of their country and they want to do things their way---which ever way they argue about and end up choosing. They resent gringos thinking they
should lead the way to change; assisting and joining with Mexicans leading the way seems to be far more appreciated. Just our observations.
Then again, we have one local friend who is proud to be a Mexican, but he worships everything gringo--- He thinks EVERYTHING American is better
including the food and the beer. We tell him American beer is AWFUL.
Bottom line, I believe, it is their country and we all are visitors and only there out of choice and because they allow us to be there. So while we
are happy the salt works did not happen, and other gringos think it should have happened, it was up to them to decide and they did.
[Edited on 3-3-2012 by DianaT] |
I agree with your observations. We all come to the table with different experiences, education, bias', etc. I think many are too quick to explain a
problem or situation without fully trying to understand it first. I am sure this is what your friend might be referring to.
I think it might be an American characteristic as I've heard it many times throughout my travels in Baja and Europe. I'd better be careful
saying this as I don't want to be accused of apologizing for the US by the Faux News fans. No there are multiple perspectives to most issues
and we need to be cognizant of this. |
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durrelllrobert
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Location: Punta Banda BC
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Mood: thriving in Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by 805gregg
The whales are trying to reproduce and carry on their species, why not leave them alone, they don't need your presence. |
but that's what us voyers go to watch
www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8e5ZOB5FTY
Bob Durrell
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elgatoloco
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Posts: 4349
Registered: 11-19-2002
Location: Yes
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Wow, the question had nothing to do with Americans, Fox News, or any of that... but since some of you like to turn it into politics, I gave a
political reply...
Here again was my original question, brought on by Diana T's anti salt works comment, in a whale watching thread:
"Just wondering why they are "terrible salt works" if at San Ignacio Lagoon... but the salt works at Ojo de Liebre (Scammon's) Lagoon is no problem at
all for the whales?" |
The fact that the whales, a species who had only been a few years off the endangered species list, would have been possibly impacted by the increased
ship traffic and the fact that the Mexican government had set aside the area for whale habitat in the 70's was reason enough to not have a second even
bigger operation at SI. The co-op workers and citizens in Abreojos who we had a chance to speak with during the time the fight to stop the plant was
going on were opposed in part to the salt plant because of the mile+ long pier that was to be constructed right over a productive reef system that
provided fish, lobster and abalone habitat and right near the inshore areas and beaches that provide clams for harvest. I agree that the whales seem
to do just fine in Scammons but the circumstance would have been much different in SI. I would think that if one tried to build a GN salt plant today
it would not fly. IMHO.
MAGA
marooons Are Governing America
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elgatoloco
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End of March can be good. The wife and I had an incredible experience a few years back on the 25th of March when we blasted out to Kuyima one morning.
We had a mother bring her baby over for a pet after she had checked us out for a bit then she disappeared into the green water and then floated up
from below the panga and stuck a flipper up on either side of the boat and lifted us up slightly. Remembering that makes the hair on the back of my
neck stand up. Everyone should go to the lagoons at least once. 
MAGA
marooons Are Governing America
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by elgatoloco
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Wow, the question had nothing to do with Americans, Fox News, or any of that... but since some of you like to turn it into politics, I gave a
political reply...
Here again was my original question, brought on by Diana T's anti salt works comment, in a whale watching thread:
"Just wondering why they are "terrible salt works" if at San Ignacio Lagoon... but the salt works at Ojo de Liebre (Scammon's) Lagoon is no problem at
all for the whales?" |
The fact that the whales, a species who had only been a few years off the endangered species list, would have been possibly impacted by the increased
ship traffic and the fact that the Mexican government had set aside the area for whale habitat in the 70's was reason enough to not have a second even
bigger operation at SI. The co-op workers and citizens in Abreojos who we had a chance to speak with during the time the fight to stop the plant was
going on were opposed in part to the salt plant because of the mile+ long pier that was to be constructed right over a productive reef system that
provided fish, lobster and abalone habitat and right near the inshore areas and beaches that provide clams for harvest. I agree that the whales seem
to do just fine in Scammons but the circumstance would have been much different in SI. I would think that if one tried to build a GN salt plant today
it would not fly. IMHO. |
Excellent answer! Thanks Matt.. sounds like good logic, which I appreciate over the emotional hysteria as an answer.
Hope you and Barb are doing well!
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shari
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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as I live and work with many people involved in the salt works, one must be ummmm....tactful and prudent about commenting. I can tell you that the
lagoon was a lovely peaceful place before the big deisel pumps were installed. One can now hear much more industrial noise there now...nobody actually
lives there so it doesnt bother humans except the 3 months people camp there.
The whales tolerate the noise because they have to. Ojo de Liebre is the main calving lagoon and the salt works doesnt seem to affect their health.
One big concern is that whales can be hit by the tugs pulling barges of salt out of the lagoon. Gray whales are often hit by boats all up and down the
migration route.
If you really want to protect whales, I personally would love to see a patrol boat in all lagoons to monitor the behavior of the lancheros and make
sure they are not harrassing the animals. Yes some whales approach the boats but I have witnessed some pretty awful panga etiquette and lots and lots
of pangas flagrantly disobeying the regulations in both lagoons.
This mother and calf chased US around and just wanted to hang out with us...the baby loved pushing the panga around like in this photo...his mom took
the opportunity to take a nap while we were babysitting her calf.
I am happy for the locals of san ignacio that they still have their lagoon in tact...for the moment...unfortunately these megaprojects much depend on
the political climate.
[Edited on 3-5-2012 by shari]
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David K
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Thanks Shari! Are there different pumps now that are noisier? Since salt making this way began about 54 years ago (pumping sea water onto the salt
pans next to the lagoon), wasn't pumping going on since then?
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shari
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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Yes David, there are more pumps in different places...many more than before and closer to the edge of the lagoon. ESSA had a bumper crop of salt this
year.
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SFandH
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
the salt works at Ojo de Liebre (Scammon's) Lagoon is no problem at all for the whales |
How do you know that?
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by SFandH
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
the salt works at Ojo de Liebre (Scammon's) Lagoon is no problem at all for the whales |
How do you know that? |
Because they keep going back there, in ever increasing numbers... There are other lagoons to choose, afterall.
If nature caused a sand bar to block the entrance, they would go somewhere else.
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SFandH
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Thanks for your opinion.
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David K
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I think it is a fact, not opinion... but Shari can confirm... that whales are returning to Scammon's Lagoon in numbers greater each year than in 1957
when salt mining using pumps began.
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shari
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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the gray whale population is fairly stable right now so probably not coming in greater numbers...it is somewhat cyclical in that some years there may
be a thousand whales, other year there may be 2,000...this year the peak was near 1,800. They really have no choice, the other lagoons couldnt even
begin to accomodate that many whales. Ojo de Liebre is THE main calving lagoon...so some pump noise sure isnt going to stop them from using the lagoon
as their nursery...panga traffic probably bugs them way more.
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
the gray whale population is fairly stable right now so probably not coming in greater numbers...it is somewhat cyclical in that some years there may
be a thousand whales, other year there may be 2,000...this year the peak was near 1,800. They really have no choice, the other lagoons couldnt even
begin to accomodate that many whales. Ojo de Liebre is THE main calving lagoon...so some pump noise sure isnt going to stop them from using the lagoon
as their nursery...panga traffic probably bugs them way more. |
Thinking about all of the whales heading for San Ignacio brings up images in the mind of whales stacked on each other!
Very nice photo of the baby playing let's push a boat around.
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David K
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Thank you Shari, I appreciate facts (and opinion too from experts who are really there seeing the whales every year)!
I wonder what would happen if the lagoon entrance was blocked by natural forces or the sea level dropped, making the entrance too shallow?
They would have to join others in the other lagoons or have their young in the open ocean like all other whales do, yes? It used to be reported that
some Gray Whales traveled into the Gulf of California each year... Would that be for having young also, or just for non-baring whales?
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shari
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the whales that go up into the gulf are "non breeders"...they try to have their babies in the safety of the lagoon but sometimes babies come early
before they reach the lagoon....oooops. Gray whales are the only whales who calve in lagoons.
Whales are concious of the lagoon's narrow entrance and the possibility of them being trapped inside the lagoon. Before the big NOrthridge quake, the
lagoon emptied out of whales...we woke up in the morning to an empty lagoon and wondered why? where the heck did all the whales go? It wasnt till much
later in the afternoon word started arriving of a big quake...the whales must have sensed it and realized they should leave the lagoon just in case a
shift blocked the exit of the lagoon....they were back the next day.
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