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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5912
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Dennis,
I don't see it as a not being PC issue. LGBT's are human beings. They are sons and daughters of friends and family. They are worthy of basic human
respect. Making jokes about them ain't cool in my book. I'm guilty of doing this in my youth -- so I'm no angel. Zeus knows how much crap they
have to put up with from society already.
But hey Dennis, we can disagree. No punches pulled. =)
And now back to the topic in this thread............anyone have any ideas for Iflyfish?
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J.P.
Super Nomad
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Location: Punta Banda
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I belive the Mexican Society by and large are a Tolerant People.
Most outsiders mistake that Tolerance for Acceptance. Given the Dominate Religous belief I dont think they can or will accept that Lifestyle.
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Baja Bucko
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You might want to contact the Trevor Project for access to info-maybe bilingual info .....
My other 4WD is a Baja Mule!
La Mula Mil Survivor 2013-2014!
1000 miles by mule from the tip to Tecate!
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Baja Bucko
You might want to contact the Trevor Project for access to info-maybe bilingual info ..... |
http://www.thetrevorproject.org/
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
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Thank you very much for the link! It got me into the arena I needed to find. I found an international organization out of Lima Peru that has a
presence in Mexico for parents of LGBT children. http://www.familiasporladiversidad.org/convencion/
This is much like PFLAG in the USofA. http://community.pflag.org/Page.aspx?pid=194&srcid=-2
I found the same sort of heart wrenching stories at http://www.thetrevorproject.org
that I have heard for decades in my Private Practice of Clinical Social Work and in the schools I consulted with for over 25 years.
I believe that times indeed are changing and there are more resources available now that we have the internet and more time on task in dealing with
this issue. However there are still untold numbers of children suffering in silence and die from suicide in Mexico as well as in the USofA.
I also believe that there are cultural and subcultural differences depending upon where one is in the US or Mexico for that matter.
I again want to thank my nomad amigos for your thoughtful response and the link you have provided.
For those who do not know you can translate Webpages automatically by cutting and pasting. Cut the http........ of the site you are looking at and
Paste it into the dialogue box in Google Translate, an invaluable tool when doing translation or searching the web for information not in your native
language.
I will get this information to my friend, it looks like there are no GSA's in the schools of Mexico at this time.
Iflyfish
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13048
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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Ensenada Dr. touched on an interesting phenomenon here in baja...for such a macho culture, it really is extra tolerant of individuals who are
"different". With such large families, it is common to have a gay child or handicapped in some way. Here the culture completely accepts these
differences and embraces them.
In rural areas anyway, handicapped children go to public schools and kids learn to accept and help the disadvantaged. We have many gay people in our
village and they are not ostracized or bullied or really even noticed..it's just not a big deal...which is why there may not be these programs Rick is
looking for here....they arent needed. That being said, I have never seen any of the gay folks outwardly expressing their sexuality by kissing or
holding hands etc. They keep their affections private and go about their day like heterosexuals....I was going to say like normal people...hahaha!
They ARE just normal people here....I was pretty surprised about this and have come to appreciate it.
There is a little girls who is severely handicapped and she is in the regular school here and her classmates help wheel her around and in the school
plays, she is always included and plays her part...once they performed as a mariachi band and a violin was propped in her lap! so cool.
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
Ensenada Dr. touched on an interesting phenomenon here in baja...for such a macho culture, it really is extra tolerant of individuals who are
"different". With such large families, it is common to have a gay child or handicapped in some way. Here the culture completely accepts these
differences and embraces them.
In rural areas anyway, handicapped children go to public schools and kids learn to accept and help the disadvantaged. We have many gay people in our
village and they are not ostracized or bullied or really even noticed..it's just not a big deal...which is why there may not be these programs Rick is
looking for here....they arent needed. That being said, I have never seen any of the gay folks outwardly expressing their sexuality by kissing or
holding hands etc. They keep their affections private and go about their day like heterosexuals....I was going to say like normal people...hahaha!
They ARE just normal people here....I was pretty surprised about this and have come to appreciate it.
There is a little girls who is severely handicapped and she is in the regular school here and her classmates help wheel her around and in the school
plays, she is always included and plays her part...once they performed as a mariachi band and a violin was propped in her lap! so cool.
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If homosexuals must keep their affections private, I would not consider them to be treated as normal.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 10-17-2006
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I started this thread as a favor to a friend wanting to help Gay-Straight-Alliances in the USofA, Canada and Mexico if they existed in Mexico.
For me this has been an informative and fascinating exploration. Mexico has some very deep and long history with LGBT people and as Ensenada Dr and
Shari have noted there seems to be a tolerance of these differences here in Mexico that is different than in the USofA and Canada.
There are still many young people who are struggling with their sexual identity who are exposed to abuse here in Mexico, I have read their
heartbreaking letters, and their stories are very familiar to me.
I have learned that there are indeed groups in Mexico that exist to support Parents of LBGT children and there are internet sites offering support to
Depressed and Suicidal LBGT Teens. This is all good news.
Mexico has already passed laws acknowledging Gay marriage and adoption
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/aug/18/world/la-fg-mexico-g...
So the civil rights of LBGT people are the law of the land.
Then there is the very interesting city of Juchitán de Zaragoza in the State of Oaxaca, it is the city of the Muxes. I would encourage you to watch
this short documentary filmed in this enchanting city where the Muxes are honored as an integral part of the culture.
"According to myth, God entrusted San Vicente with a difficult task. On his back he carried a sack full of Muxes, and had to leave one in every town
of the Zapotec kingdom.?
But when the Saint reached Juchitan he tripped, and all the Muxes he carried in his sack fell out. Since then, this town in the South-East of Mexico
has experienced an unexpected - not only for Mexico but for the entire world -? sexual liberation. Homosexual men who wish to dress as women freely do
so, and live a more or less similar life as their heterosexual fellow citizens. Not only do the Muxes not hide their difference on the streets of
Juchitan, they actually project it in every way. Their fellow citizens simply go on their way, not impressed, provoked or angered by the sight of a
man in women's clothes, hairdos and make-up. The Muxes claim they belong to the community of the "intrepid", of "those who do not fear death", and
celebrate their desire and joy to be women every year in a festivity attended by the whole community.
In Juchitan, the dream of tolerance and the acceptance of difference has been a reality for years. Without announcements and declarations, without
social movements having to fight long and bloody social and political struggles, without conflict and quarrel...
A documentary on the joy of life and love which prevailed effortlessly because San Vicente tripped...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz-NL1HcGaA
Iflyfishinaweofthemanymexicos
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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The LGBT movement in the United States became one of bullying and power grabs under the guise of Political Correctness. Because Mexican culture does
not go out of it's way to find victims and because the victims don't seem to have the same platform for complaints as they do in the more liberal
quarters of the United States, there seems to be less of a problem with LGBT students wanting to protest, demonstrate, and raise a fuss under the
guise of having experienced discrimination.
Bajaboys comments about keeping their affections private is a pretty common part of the culture in the same way. You will occasionaly see a young
couple showing affection, but that is also frowned upon by the older community in the same way.
If a family member is LGBT disposed, the ususal comment is something along the lines of a generic description of that person seems to prefer people of
the same sex. And at some level the term queer or joto / jota is used in a generic term of wordplay, but in my experience I have never seen the
students using it is a disparaging manner as a discriminitory putdown.
Now there is something you may want to look into and research. Why in the US with all the bullying that they employ to get supposedly equal treatment
in terms of Same Sex Marriage and social acceptance, and all the protesting, lobbying, general disturbance, and all the other methods of fomenting
change, do the words like "faggot", "queer", 'homo", etc., etc., have such a negative and hateful connotation? In Mexico, on the other hand, we see
a much more balanced and accepting expression of alternative lifestyles and choices.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Dennis: You got me to thinking.....there must have been LBGT people in the history of Mexico and Baja.
I hate to disillusion you, given your delicate condition and all, but your fantasy of Mexican History seems to be a bit, dare I say weak or limp
wristed. Seems homosexuality was alive and well in MezoAmerica, in fact the Aztecs even had a god for it named Xochipili
Now don't you go arguing with me Dennis or I'll bring in the Lone Ranger and Tonto into this and believe me it won't be as pretty as Brokeback
Mountain...if you get my drift. We all know about Bruce and Wayne. So, hang onto your bar-stool and get a peek at this.
http://www.conservapedia.com/History_of_homosexuality
Below find quotes from this History.
Homosexuality among the America Indians
Pre-Columbian Americas: In North America, the Spanish and French explorers and missionaries who visited the New World quickly became aware of
widespread Indian transvestism (men dressing as women) and homosexuality. Writing in 1776, Father Charlevoix, a Jesuit priest, found the Iroquois to
have “an excess of effeminacy and lewdness. There are men unashamed to wear women’s clothing and to practice all the occupations of women, from which
follows corruption that I cannot express. They pretend that its usage comes from their religion. These effeminates never marry and abandon themselves
to the most infamous passions.”
Greenberg reports that there was widespread male homosexuality among the Mayans in Central America: “A strong homosexual component pervades close
friendships of young married Mayan men as well as bachelors in southern Mexico and among Guatemalan Indians.”
Among the Aztecs, “Sodomy was virtually universal, involving even children as young as six. Cortez also found sodomy to be widespread among the
Aztecs, and admonished them to give it up – along with human sacrifice and cannibalism. One of the Aztec gods, Xochipili, was the patron of male
homosexuality and male prostitution.”[51]
We don't have documentation of LBGT behavior in Baja history, save for the occasional marooned Gay sailor on islands off the Baja, but we know that
these differences have existed in all cultures throughout history.
Iflyfishbutnotwithxochipilicwhofranklyscaresme
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Pescador!
"The LGBT movement in the United States became one of bullying and power grabs under the guise of Political Correctness."
That's like saying the Black Civil Rights movement in the United States became one of bullying and power grabs under the guise of Political
Correctness.
Or saying that the movement toward an American Revolution became one of bullying and power grabs under the guise of "no taxes with out
representation".
You got the cart in front of the burro amigo.
Iflyfishwithmyjawdropped
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8088
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
We have many gay people in our village and ...
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Oh really? Who are they? I promise not to tell anyone.
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador.
Bajaboys comments about keeping their affections private is a pretty common part of the culture in the same way. You will occasionaly see a young
couple showing affection, but that is also frowned upon by the older community in the same way.
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Have you been to a dance lately? Plenty of visible affection and most seem to be enjoying it
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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5912
Registered: 7-18-2011
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Iflyfish: Great work with this thread. I thank you.
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Bajafun777
Super Nomad
Posts: 1103
Registered: 9-13-2006
Location: Rosarito & California
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Mood: Enjoying Life with Wife In Mexico, Easy on The Easy
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Like the song goes,"Different Strokes For Different Folks!!" Have no thoughts one way or the other on this lifestyle as I have worked with these
folks, been in sports with the different lifestyle folks in high school and college, and have associated with them at bars, social functions, etc. but
again have no interest in their lifestyle for me or mine.
"Live and Let Live," however with that said I not going to be encouraging others to take up this form of lifestyle nor do I want to be in area of
their total on play. I also believe nobody has the right to cause harm to anyone being different or hating them for being different. Just rolling
along enjoying life and enjoying listening and watching others in their quests for adventures of life. LOL Take Care & Travel Safe " No
Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777
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EnsenadaDr
Banned
Posts: 5027
Registered: 9-12-2011
Location: Baja California
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Mood: Move on. It is just a chapter in the past, but don't close the book- just turn the page
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Bullying also doesn't only happen with gays. It can happen in higher society mexican schools as well. My daughter was in a very highly rated
private school in Mexico, and asked to change to another school. There was one girl who was always bullying the other girls and she was tired of her.
She is much happier in the new school she is at. I think parents have an obligation to listen to their kids, and if they are not happy, make the
changes necessary to stay away from competitive, keep up with the Smiths mentality (in this case, it was keep up with the Garcias), I think in the
less affluent areas of Mexico kids are more tolerant, but kids raised in households with more income learn the practices of their parents, more money
means a better person, NOT!!
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Most Gays and Lesbians do not "choose that lifestyle" they are born that way. No one wakes up one morning and says "Great, I get to be LBGT and have
the crap kicked out of me!" Not only do these folks go through an internal battle, no one wants to be different, but then have to deal with the
attitudes of others. Many are rejected by their parents who don't understand the biology behind these differences.
Few of us know of the agony that LBGT go through in their development because the concept of being attracted to the same sex is just not in our frame
of reference and most of us are not LBGT. I had a hard time getting my head around that till I worked in a Medical School and learned about the wide
variety of anatomical/physiology=ical/hormonal variations that occur in the human body.
We are not all the same. We are conceived female and our tissues migrate and when we have a Y chromosome then it gets exposed to Androgen and the
tissues morph into male organs. This is not always the case i.e. the hermaphrodite, who has BOTH sets of organs in various configurations. Same with
hormones, men AND women have Testosterone and Estrogen, it is the balance of these that create the secondary sexual characteristics. As males age
their testosterone decreases in relation to their estrogen, muscle mass decreases, sex drive decreases, breasts develop more etc. in direct response
to a decrease in that hormone.
All of this is beyond CHOICE.
Male and Female brains are different and there are Males walking around with more Female like brains and Females with more Male like brains.
This is important information for young people struggling with this issue as it is for Parents of these children. Parents are often confused, did I do
something wrong etc. The more the general public understands these issues the easier it is for the people directly involved. Half the problem is how
Society deals with these differences, that second half we can directly address with information and at least acceptance of differences if not the
embrace of them.
Thanks for the thoughtful posts on this thread. I got some very useful information for my friend who is trying to help LBGT youth, an effort I
applaud.
Iflyfishconmiheteroehomoamigosonnomads
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Bullying also doesn't only happen with gays. It can happen in higher society mexican schools as well. My daughter was in a very highly rated
private school in Mexico, and asked to change to another school. There was one girl who was always bullying the other girls and she was tired of her.
She is much happier in the new school she is at. I think parents have an obligation to listen to their kids, and if they are not happy, make the
changes necessary to stay away from competitive, keep up with the Smiths mentality (in this case, it was keep up with the Garcias), I think in the
less affluent areas of Mexico kids are more tolerant, but kids raised in households with more income learn the practices of their parents, more money
means a better person, NOT!! |
Very interesting observation and so true. It is not only GLBT kids that get bullied. Bullies have low self esteem and need to feel strong and better
about themselves by dominating others. It is very damaging for children to be exposed to that as it engenders feelings of powerlessness and
helplessness that can become a part of the self identity.
Parents/teachers have to train their children to embrace diversity and to recognize that the Bully is the one with the problem.
Congratulations for listening to your daughter and taking action. So many kids get told to just toughen up and take on the bully physically and not
all children feel up to that task hence can feel even more inadequate because now they have displeased dad/mom.
Bullying of GLBT children is a safety issue not only for the abused but for the abuser too. Confronting bullies by adults allows the opportunity to
learn empathy and compassion and these are important lessons indeed. If bullies are allowed to get away with their aggression that too can become
embedded in their character and their spouse and children can become the targets of their anger and lack of social skills
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Thanks for your helpful posts on this thread.
Iflyfish
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Baja Bucko
Nomad
Posts: 288
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Well said, Iflyfish, well said.
Nomads-----Please walk in a parent's or child's shoes before making jokes about this stuff.
My other 4WD is a Baja Mule!
La Mula Mil Survivor 2013-2014!
1000 miles by mule from the tip to Tecate!
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Baja Bucko
Well said, Iflyfish, well said.
Nomads-----Please walk in a parent's or child's shoes before making jokes about this stuff. |
Thanks Baja Bucko
I think it's very hard for us straights to get our heads around someone so different unless I have struggled with this issue. I'm heterosexual like
most other men, how can I get my head around that another man could be attracted to men when the attraction toward women is a powerful as it is? As a
heterosexual man when I first found out there were Gay men I was freaked out, felt disgusted, creepy. They were a threat to my own identity as I had
to sort out the world of dating, friendships with women etc. Not an easy task in itself as the flat spot on my forehead can well testify to. Trying to
get my head around such a different orientation while I was trying to sort out my own was just too much. Having someone different to look down on had
it's appeal. It wasn't till I was older in my life and really got to know LGBT people that I got to appreciate their bravery in dealing with such a
fundamental issue that I did not have to deal with.
I felt the same way about racial minorities and their fight for acknowledgement and social/legal equality that I do about the LBGT fight for equal
rights. I am glad that "the times they are changing" in regard to this last major Civil Rights issue of our time. My hope is that there can be less
pain for these folks. We need all the diversity that we can get.
Iflyfish
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