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MrBillM
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Trying to put Queer Fear ...............
To the Rear ?
So to speak ?
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Skipjack Joe
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If 'gayness' is genetic then why are there gay people?
Surely there is no gene less 'fit' then the gay gene. If fitness is measured by the percent of offspring that survive then the gay gene has a fitness
of zero. So how did it survive? Why wasn't it lost during millions of years of evolution?
I just have the questions, Ric.
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Bajaboy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
I was hoping you would elaborate on this a bit more. A year or so ago, I mentioned about possibly doing a cardioversion to convert the atrial
fibrillation. It was so surprising to me -that a well-known cardiologist in Ensenada dismissed it saying "it will come right back, even if it gets
you into Sinus rhythm for a while." So don't try it? Ridiculous. Thank God you have the VA. | Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Dennis, how did it go? |
Went just fine. Cardioverted with one zap of 150 Joules. Sinus Rhythm is back in place....forever, I hope.
This is not me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nsN0vdXZuY
.
[Edited on 1-30-2013 by DENNIS] |
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We interrupt the current programing to have a private conversation here....
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durrelllrobert
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Dennis, how did it go? |
Went just fine. Cardioverted with one zap of 150 Joules. Sinus Rhythm is back in place....forever, I hope.
This is not me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nsN0vdXZuY
.
[Edited on 1-30-2013 by DENNIS] |
I certainly hope your procedure wasn't that unorganized.
Bob Durrell
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durrelllrobert
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Just FYI
150 joules = 1,500.000,000 ergs which equals
936,225,971,990,000,000,000 electronvolts and I'm sure they counted every one.
Bob Durrell
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Iflyfish
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
If 'gayness' is genetic then why are there gay people?
Surely there is no gene less 'fit' then the gay gene. If fitness is measured by the percent of offspring that survive then the gay gene has a fitness
of zero. So how did it survive? Why wasn't it lost during millions of years of evolution?
I just have the questions, Ric. |
See my earlier post. Genes exist in potential and are manifest in a dynamic interaction with their environment. We are conceived female and then our
genes manifest in the context of exposure to a hormone if we are male that morphs the tissues into our sex and reproductive organs. I describe this
dynamic in an earlier post. Genes are not static, they are dynamic.
I don't believe there is a "gay gene", I think that's an oversimplification of a very complex dynamic that results in a wide range of anatomical,
neurological and hormonal differences in human beings.
I hope that answers your question.
Iflyfish
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MrBillM
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The Happily Depressed
A False Truth ?
"................the sad and difficult life being gay".
Wouldn't sadly gay be an oxymarooon ?
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EnsenadaDr
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Mood: Move on. It is just a chapter in the past, but don't close the book- just turn the page
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there are several diseases such as Kleinfelter's and Turner syndrome that have an abnormality in the genetic makeup of the individual which will cause
them to have differences in physical sexual characteristics. All sex hormones are coded by genes, so I believe ultimately a person's makeup and
ultimately their sexual preferences are genetic, IMHO, one person might have been coded for more or less testosterone, for example. There is still a
lot of the human genome to be discovered and what genes are responsible for many bodily functions. | Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
If 'gayness' is genetic then why are there gay people?
Surely there is no gene less 'fit' then the gay gene. If fitness is measured by the percent of offspring that survive then the gay gene has a fitness
of zero. So how did it survive? Why wasn't it lost during millions of years of evolution?
I just have the questions, Ric. |
See my earlier post. Genes exist in potential and are manifest in a dynamic interaction with their environment. We are conceived female and then our
genes manifest in the context of exposure to a hormone if we are male that morphs the tissues into our sex and reproductive organs. I describe this
dynamic in an earlier post. Genes are not static, they are dynamic.
I don't believe there is a "gay gene", I think that's an oversimplification of a very complex dynamic that results in a wide range of anatomical,
neurological and hormonal differences in human beings.
I hope that answers your question.
Iflyfish |
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MrBillM
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Genetic Mutants ?
Could the current mutation have begun in the Gay 90s ?
Perhaps in Gay Paree ?
Among Gay Blades ?
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
If 'gayness' is genetic then why are there gay people?
Surely there is no gene less 'fit' then the gay gene. If fitness is measured by the percent of offspring that survive then the gay gene has a fitness
of zero. So how did it survive? Why wasn't it lost during millions of years of evolution?
I just have the questions, Ric. |
See my earlier post. Genes exist in potential and are manifest in a dynamic interaction with their environment. We are conceived female and then our
genes manifest in the context of exposure to a hormone if we are male that morphs the tissues into our sex and reproductive organs. I describe this
dynamic in an earlier post. Genes are not static, they are dynamic.
I don't believe there is a "gay gene", I think that's an oversimplification of a very complex dynamic that results in a wide range of anatomical,
neurological and hormonal differences in human beings.
I hope that answers your question.
Iflyfish |
It does not answer the question, Iflyfish.
While it's true that gayness is undoubtedly caused by many genes that are expressed at different times during development they are still genes. It was
stated that a person is born to be gay and has no control over it. Since you start out from one fertilized egg there is nothing but genetic material
that makes you gay - no matter how complex that genetic interaction may be. And if natural selection occurs then they never pass on that genetic
matter. A species should lose those genes over time.
The heterozygotes, the carriers, must be the reason they are still with us. It's like hemophilia. It's there in the carriers (Queen Victoria) but the
homozygous descendants never live long enough to have children.
I'm sorry, Ric. We're going over the Hardy Weinberg equations now which measure gene frequencies over time as a measure of evolution. It just seems
that they should be dropping as a result of natural selection against homosexuality.
I'll have to dig further. Perhaps the gay genes are linked (adjacent to) some other very beneficial gene that is being selected for and carrying the
gay gene with it.
Clearly there are many carriers of gay genetic material in the 'normal' population that are totally unaware of it. It's not the type of research that
would be greatly promoted. The human genome has been completely mapped out. The information is out there if there was interest. I'm sure many feel
that kind of information could very destructive, but at the very end - facts are just facts, and values or opinions will not change anything.
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EnsenadaDr
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Good old Google, lots of material on this: Is there a gay gene?
http://bigthink.com/think-tank/the-gay-gene-new-evidence-sup...
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JoeJustJoe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaBlanca
well, interesting thread to say the least
I want to comment that I have an adopted son who is gay. although he came to us when he was 9 (after his mom died), I had known him since he was born.
And that is how I learned that GAYS are born GAY. There really is no choice for them except suffer in silence or come out of the closet. Foolishly,
my husband at the time and I thought that we could make him a "macho man" by not encouraging his feminine behaviour. Hogwash. That kids was gay
from the getgo.
I don't believe for a second that anyone, ever, would CHOOSE the sad and difficult life being gay.
Hopefully, one day our society will realize that gayness cannot rub off. It is what it is. If you are hetero, you will remain hetero and if you are
gay, you will be gay.
There is an overtly gay kid in our local 7th grade, I have never seen the kids make fun of/tease/or even comment about him and they can be extremely
cruel to each other over other issues. |
I think there are a couple of things go on that make some people gay. It would seem many gays as long as they could remember back, always felt they
were gay, and perhaps they were born that way because of hormones or genes. ( we know scientist are looking for that gay gene)
However, many people that study this issue, also acknowledge that being gay can also be an acquired taste, or perhaps forced on them in childhood,
through a controversial theory of some sort of "imprinting. If you look at children that were molested as children, there is a high percent of them
that self-identify as being gay. ( now that's not to say ever gay person was molested, but I would be interested to see more studies in this area)
Many years ago I worked in a field that is thought of Man's work, similar to a construction worker, police officer, or tough military soldier, and
this line of work, attracted physical fit women, and even many open lesbians who often worked harder than the men.
Over the years, I watched many women who identified as being lesbian, suddenly decide they want to marry a man, and have children. I have seen women,
who seem straight in every way possible, with a husbands, and kids.......just pick up and suddenly adopt a gay lifestyle with a new girlfriend! (
According to a few studies. Women who self-identify as being lesbian, have more male sex partners on average than the so-called straight women!
Most psychologists still follow the teachings of Kinsey, that doesn't believe the world is divided into sheep and goats, and see human sexuality on a
continuum of a scale between being being exclusively straight or exclusively gay, although most people are closer to one side of the scare than the
other, and some are right in the middle.
I think it's back to the old nature versus nurture argument, and probably nature is the strong force, in a person self-identify of being so-called
straight or gay, but at this time, I don't think anybody knows for sure, and it's all theories, anecdotal evidence, and alcohol. In other areas, it's
just about an accepted fact, that what you do in the environment can shape your brain and body, although there is always that predisposition and
instinct too.
[Edited on 1-31-2013 by JoeJustJoe]
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shari
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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I have met heterosexual women who changed teams as a result of the "acquired taste" theory...they just got fed up with dirty socks in the corner and
doing all the work....hmmmm.
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DENNIS
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It ain't just people:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiT2OSAbogw
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durrelllrobert
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The three gay caballeros?
| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
A False Truth ?
"................the sad and difficult life being gay".
Wouldn't sadly gay be an oxymarooon ? |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R53S0VHQ1s
Bob Durrell
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Iflyfish
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
If 'gayness' is genetic then why are there gay people?
Surely there is no gene less 'fit' then the gay gene. If fitness is measured by the percent of offspring that survive then the gay gene has a fitness
of zero. So how did it survive? Why wasn't it lost during millions of years of evolution?
I just have the questions, Ric. |
See my earlier post. Genes exist in potential and are manifest in a dynamic interaction with their environment. We are conceived female and then our
genes manifest in the context of exposure to a hormone if we are male that morphs the tissues into our sex and reproductive organs. I describe this
dynamic in an earlier post. Genes are not static, they are dynamic.
I don't believe there is a "gay gene", I think that's an oversimplification of a very complex dynamic that results in a wide range of anatomical,
neurological and hormonal differences in human beings.
I hope that answers your question.
Iflyfish |
It does not answer the question, Iflyfish.
While it's true that gayness is undoubtedly caused by many genes that are expressed at different times during development they are still genes. It was
stated that a person is born to be gay and has no control over it. Since you start out from one fertilized egg there is nothing but genetic material
that makes you gay - no matter how complex that genetic interaction may be. And if natural selection occurs then they never pass on that genetic
matter. A species should lose those genes over time.
The heterozygotes, the carriers, must be the reason they are still with us. It's like hemophilia. It's there in the carriers (Queen Victoria) but the
homozygous descendants never live long enough to have children.
I'm sorry, Ric. We're going over the Hardy Weinberg equations now which measure gene frequencies over time as a measure of evolution. It just seems
that they should be dropping as a result of natural selection against homosexuality.
I'll have to dig further. Perhaps the gay genes are linked (adjacent to) some other very beneficial gene that is being selected for and carrying the
gay gene with it.
Clearly there are many carriers of gay genetic material in the 'normal' population that are totally unaware of it. It's not the type of research that
would be greatly promoted. The human genome has been completely mapped out. The information is out there if there was interest. I'm sure many feel
that kind of information could very destructive, but at the very end - facts are just facts, and values or opinions will not change anything.
|
As usual I appreciate your thoughtful posts. Find below clarification of my prior post.
Below find an elaboration of Gd-H-B model, that I clumsily tried to describe in my prior post. This is complicated business as is our fetal
development. A careful reading of this summary of the literature on the subject will clearly show that gender orientation is not is not a simple
“lifestyle choice” and to assert that people who LGBT are the way they are solely by choice does a great injustice to these folks.
I am not asserting that this Gd-H-B model is the ONLY dynamic affecting gender but believe that this is a SIGNIFICANT piece of the puzzle. It is clear
also that a single "gay gene" has not been found and in my view will not be found as a SINGLE causal agent in human sexual and gender differences.
"As the millennium approaches and a respected leader in our discipline retires at about the same time, it is fitting to reflect on some seminal issues
in the field of behavior. One major issue is to comprehend, particularly in regard to behavior, factors which are important influences on sexual
expression and the development of sex differences. A series of major breakthroughs occurred some four decades ago that had many, at least among the
more biologically minded behaviorists, believing that such an understanding would soon be with us. Unfortunately, the feeling was premature. It is the
purpose of this discourse to discuss aspects of sexual development and to offer insight as to why understanding such processes is much more
complicated than initially assumed.
Historically one of the first breakthroughs was the determination by Jost and colleagues (Jost, 1953, 1961) that the fetal gonad, responding to its
genetic endowment, elaborates substances that can influence the development of the internal and external genitalia. A second milestone can be
considered the findings, in 1956 by Tjio and Levan, that the typical human chromosomal complement contained 46 chromosomes: 44 autosomes and the sex
chromosomes, XX for females and XY for males. This clarification of basic genetics gave hope that further related discoveries would soon follow. A
third milestone was provided by the findings of Phoenix, Goy, Gerall, and Young (1959) that endogenous prenatal hormones are crucial in the
organization of adult sexual behaviors. Such hormonal actions were seen powerful enough to structure (organize) behavior patterns that would be
manifest (activated) at puberty or after.
These now-classic papers, along with many others, established the broad developmental plan that, at least for mammals, the following pathway occurs:
genes on the sex chromosomes influence gonad development which determines gonadal hormone production (or its absence) leading to modification of the
internal and external genitalia and simultaneously biasing the nervous system to organize adult sexual behavior (see e.g., Goy and McEwen, 1980). Even
body morphology was supposed to follow along with this paradigm of sexual differentiation. This might hereafter be considered the classical “gonad to
hormones to behavior” (Gd–H–B) model."
http://hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1996-from-...
Iflyfish
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durrelllrobert
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Don't forget the Brown Pelican
Bob Durrell
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Iflyfish
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Here is another, simpler, delineation of the complex dynamics and possibilities in sex and gender development. As the old English saying goes "There's
many a slip twixt cup and lip"
http://www.gendertree.com/When%20Does%20it%20Happen.htm
I don't doubt that some people based upon experience develop a sexual preference for the same sex. I think that this is easier for females due to the
different developmental paths for females and males. Females have the same body as their mother and don't have to, as males do, renounce the world of
the female to go out and discover how males behave in the world.
Iflyfishmyrodandstaffcomfortme
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
Females have the same body as their mother and don't have to, as males do, renounce the world of the female to go out and discover how males behave in
the world.
Iflyfishmyrodandstaffcomfortme |
OMG. Oh well, aristotle would agree. As I remember he thought females were underdeveloped males. I'll leave now.
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DENNIS
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Who in this world could possibly care about the genetics of gaiety except those with a direct connection to it. Some here are taking the stance that
homosexuality is the norm, and therefore a part of the Baja Story.
I believe differently. Homosexuality is the aberration that defies the order of reproduction and development which would be considered necessary to
propagate a species in an area of sparse population, such as Baja in the distant past.
Sleep with whom you wish, but don't call it a cog on the gears of life sustenance. It isnt, any more than can be attributed to solo masturbation.
.
[Edited on 1-31-2013 by DENNIS]
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