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Islandbuilder
Senior Nomad
Posts: 555
Registered: 11-9-2011
Location: nob
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Mood: bewildered
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I became sensitized to the use of "De-Evolution" in college in 1970. The campus had the typical population cross section of the time; hippies, vets
fresh from Viet Nam, and a scattering of red necks and preppies.
In my Bio class a very buttoned down type was trying to insult us hippies by suggesting that because we had a lot of hair (ahhhhh, how I miss hair)
that perhaps it was a symptom of de-evolution.
The professor, a buttoned down fellow himself, was pretty emphatic making the point that evolution only goes forward, even if forward means to
re-visit an earlier adaptation.
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
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Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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The BIG A ?
The Vag wrote:
".............One of the arguments against allowing oneself to be described as an atheist is that we don't go around calling people who don't believe
in Leprechauns 'aleprechaunists', or people who don't believe in fairies, 'afairieists......".
IF that is one argument, it's a pretty DUMB one.
Since the "A" (in this and many other instances i.e. Amoral, Asexual, etc) denotes the Opposite or LACK.
Since Theist/Theism indicates a belief in a GOD, Atheism indicates (correctly) a lack of said belief.
Nice try, though.
Reminds me of a Liberal the other day arguing over the court decision on the recess appointments.
When challenged repeatedly that the framing of her argument was NOT TRUE, after arguing that it WAS, she finally said "well, OK, so it's not true in a
LEGAL sense, it's STILL True".
I guess.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by vgabndo
Well, Rick, I've been busy packing etc. but a couple of times I've poked my head into this discussion, I've seen you refer to this issue as the last
great social issue of our time. I very much disagree. There are far more gay people out of the closet than there are atheists. And, atheists are MUCH
more hated and mistrusted than homosexuals. The amount of bigotry commonly and mindlessly heaped on those who choose not to worship any of the gods is
a growing problem in the USA.
There is a huge movement in America to eliminate the last of the 1st. Amendment separation of church from the state. In six states it is still illegal
for an atheist to serve on a jury. Why? Being the scum they judge us to be, we would just lie. This is something a Christian would NEVER do under
oath. (we all KNOW that.)  |
I stand corrected and appreciate your clarification.
Jesus did hang out with 12 guys, wore robes and never married, hung our with but never boffed a prostitute, talked about lilies and lambs......but
heh, who am I to say.
Speaking of fairies (cherubs), which you were to some extent, I had forgotten their prominent role in Christian Mythology and see how much the Priests
appreciated them in the Cathedrals of Mexico.
And then there is of course the famous Roman Catholic benediction, really a call to worship "Veniunt hic puer et ostendet mihi mutaber"
I too don't need an invisible friend, but think that any argument I might make in this regard has been well covered by Bondy, Dawkins and Hitchens.
There are TWO unfinished Civil Rights Issues remaining in the USofA, LBGT Rights and the rights of Atheists.
Iflyfishandmyrodcomfortsme
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Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
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Iflyfish I am enormously flattered to be put on the same line with two big heroes, Dawkins and Hitchens. You are way too kind 
carpe diem!
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Iflyfish I am enormously flattered to be put on the same line with two big heroes, Dawkins and Hitchens. You are way too kind |
I think you summarized it about as good as I have read it.
Carpe Yellowtail and Salmon too!
Iflyfishgodlessandbarbless
[Edited on 2-1-2013 by Iflyfish]
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Ken Bondy
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Mood: Mellow
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"godless and barbless"
Priceless!!
carpe diem!
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Skipjack Joe
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Location: Bahia Asuncion
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Boy, you guys sure know how to push Ken Bondy's buttons.
But as to who is more discriminated, gays or atheists. My guess is that atheists will be accepted before gays. In fact it's happening in much of the
world.
As for Obama being a closet atheist. I don't think he considers himself to be one. As I see it atheists define believers to be basically
fundamentalists and everyone else falls into the category of 'closet atheists'. It's not black and white like that.
Atheists like to have the freedom to augment their beliefs as new information is uncovered. But they don't want to give believers the same right and
so judge them on 'bronze age' beliefs. Evolution comes forth in history, but you are labeled a closet atheist if you stop believing in 7day
creationism.
This whole thing about acceptance reminds me of that main character, Tevye, in Fiddler on the Roof who tells his daughter:
"Like the Good Book says - 'Each shall seek his own kind'. In other words, a bird may love a fish, but where would they build a home together?
"
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Islandbuilder
Senior Nomad
Posts: 555
Registered: 11-9-2011
Location: nob
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Mood: bewildered
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As a species, humans have several critical short comings. We ALL suffer from periodic outbreaks of greed, lust, laziness, selfishness and hatred. We
know this is true because we can easily see these failures in people we don't care for. Of course, they see the same weaknesses in us.
We put a great deal of energy into shifting and re-weighing "facts" that prove that our group (and therefore, we as individuals) are better than that
other group. We ignor or excuse our groups failures, and enlarge those of that other group.
It doesn't matter what your group is, or who the others might be.
This is what has brought us historic and contemporary bigotries, sexism, racism, religious strife and every war since the beginning of our time on
this planet.
As long as we accept that lies that the powerful hand us; that "we", and it doesn't matter who "we" are, are superior to "them", and it doesn't matter
who "they" are, and allow ourselves to be pitted against one another based on some arbitrary and superficial criteria, we will NEVER have peace, or be
able to climb past our constant bickering.
We need to get over ourselves, and our need to be right. Because in our "rightness" we are totally wrong.
A bit of humility, self-awareness, and forgiveness will go a very long way to move us along.
I have to give myself this talk regularly, and I still do and say stuff that I regret.
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bajadogs
Super Nomad
Posts: 1069
Registered: 8-28-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Atheists like to have the freedom to augment their beliefs as new information is uncovered. But they don't want to give believers the same right and
so judge them on 'bronze age' beliefs." | Quote: |
Yes, I like that freedom. I wish more people understood that freedom to grow and learn.
Back to the topic-
I've been watching this thread because it hits home for reasons that are nobody's business. Thank you Doug for not throwing this into the gutter when
the old bigots flashed their colors.
I think it would be cool if the gays and lesbians who use "nomads" could openly participate and share their experiences. Has there been an openly gay
"Nomad"? A new perspective would put us beyond the bronze age. And the old bigots will be gone not soon enough.
edit italics error
[Edited on 2-2-2013 by bajadogs] |
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redhilltown
Super Nomad
Posts: 1130
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Location: Long Beach, CA
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Interesting thread...and for the most part pretty respectful outside of Bill M's marooonic grade school humor...Bill: take a good look at yourself in
the mirror after a shower, you are SOOOO safe from the gay masses.
But I gotta say for a country that has basically been run by the Catholic church for oh...say...HUNDREDS of years, there are plenty of homosexuals in
Mexico and they have been there from the very very very first days.
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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5912
Registered: 7-18-2011
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajadogs
Back to the topic-
I've been watching this thread because it hits home for reasons that are nobody's business. Thank you Doug for not throwing this into the gutter when
the old bigots flashed their colors.
I think it would be cool if the gays and lesbians who use "nomads" could openly participate and share their experiences. Has there been an openly gay
"Nomad"? A new perspective would put us beyond the bronze age. And the old bigots will be gone not soon enough.
edit italics error
[Edited on 2-2-2013 by bajadogs] |
Yes, Thanks Doug for not throwing it into the OT.
There are 8000 Baja Nomad "Members". Surely several hundred are gay/lesbian, and the lack of them being "out" proves the point of this thread that
homosexuals are discriminated against, bullied and often face physical threats.
What gay Nomad would want to deal with the likes of (insert bigoted Nomad name) on a day to day basis? It's bad enough as it is!!!!! This is
probably what (insert bigoted Nomad name) likes to do to homosexuals -- keep them in the closet -- so he doesn't have to change his lazy, rigid views.
Peace, love and fish tacos everyone. I'm headed to Anza Borrego.....
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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5912
Registered: 7-18-2011
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| Quote: | Originally posted by redhilltown
Interesting thread...and for the most part pretty respectful outside of Bill M's marooonic grade school humor...Bill: take a good look at yourself in
the mirror after a shower, you are SOOOO safe from the gay masses.
But I gotta say for a country that has basically been run by the Catholic church for oh...say...HUNDREDS of years, there are plenty of homosexuals in
Mexico and they have been there from the very very very first days. |
Exactamante!! Many may even be in the hierarchy of the church!!
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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5912
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Islandbuilder
As a species, humans have several critical short comings. We ALL suffer from periodic outbreaks of greed, lust, laziness, selfishness and hatred. We
know this is true because we can easily see these failures in people we don't care for. Of course, they see the same weaknesses in us.
We put a great deal of energy into shifting and re-weighing "facts" that prove that our group (and therefore, we as individuals) are better than that
other group. We ignor or excuse our groups failures, and enlarge those of that other group.
It doesn't matter what your group is, or who the others might be.
This is what has brought us historic and contemporary bigotries, sexism, racism, religious strife and every war since the beginning of our time on
this planet.
As long as we accept that lies that the powerful hand us; that "we", and it doesn't matter who "we" are, are superior to "them", and it doesn't matter
who "they" are, and allow ourselves to be pitted against one another based on some arbitrary and superficial criteria, we will NEVER have peace, or be
able to climb past our constant bickering.
We need to get over ourselves, and our need to be right. Because in our "rightness" we are totally wrong.
A bit of humility, self-awareness, and forgiveness will go a very long way to move us along.
I have to give myself this talk regularly, and I still do and say stuff that I regret. |
We are a very tribal species. Totally agree with "a bit of humility, self awareness, and forgiveness goes a long way".
I think you may agree with this quote:
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
- George Carlin
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13048
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
Member Is Offline
Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Islandbuilder
As a species, humans have several critical short comings. We ALL suffer from periodic outbreaks of greed, lust, laziness, selfishness and hatred. We
know this is true because we can easily see these failures in people we don't care for. Of course, they see the same weaknesses in us.
We put a great deal of energy into shifting and re-weighing "facts" that prove that our group (and therefore, we as individuals) are better than that
other group. We ignor or excuse our groups failures, and enlarge those of that other group.
It doesn't matter what your group is, or who the others might be.
This is what has brought us historic and contemporary bigotries, sexism, racism, religious strife and every war since the beginning of our time on
this planet.
As long as we accept that lies that the powerful hand us; that "we", and it doesn't matter who "we" are, are superior to "them", and it doesn't matter
who "they" are, and allow ourselves to be pitted against one another based on some arbitrary and superficial criteria, we will NEVER have peace, or be
able to climb past our constant bickering.
We need to get over ourselves, and our need to be right. Because in our "rightness" we are totally wrong.
A bit of humility, self-awareness, and forgiveness will go a very long way to move us along.
I have to give myself this talk regularly, and I still do and say stuff that I regret. |
I too thank Doug for allowing this discussion....and very much agree with Islandbuilder's quote...I particularly love the part about getting over
ourselves and in our need to be RIGHT, we are totally wrong! a real thought provoking idea all right!
and an astute observation that our own Nomad family gays are not willing to risk the bullying and silliness that coming out would provoke....perhaps a
topic for this morning's shrimp taco service?
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Islandbuilder
Senior Nomad
Posts: 555
Registered: 11-9-2011
Location: nob
Member Is Offline
Mood: bewildered
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Ateo, Carlin covered everything I rambled on and on about in a sentence. He was a genious!
Shari, I'm willing to have a long reasoned conversation about ANYTHING, as long as the shrimp tacos hold out.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
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I am all in with shrimp tacos and a large dose of humility.
Good news on the topic of this thread. Looks like GSAs will have a new benefactor! This is good news for those who are interested in creating peace
and understanding among minorities.
Thanks for the very helpful input provided by thoughtful Nomads.
Is it any wonder that Nomads would eventually focus on Gays, God and Guns! Wait, the gun posts haven't yet begun. Another thread around the Nomad
campfire.
Gracias amigos
Iflyfishcomminamadamigos
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
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Is there a difference, from a social perspective, between being Gay, and being Homosexual? I mean, is there a distinguishable connotation that
seperates the two?
Prison behavior comes to mind as I ask this question, and although the sexual activities of some prisoners would probably be classified as
"homosexual" in nature, to me it would seem inappropriate to refer to them as "Gay."
.
[Edited on 2-2-2013 by DENNIS]
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durrelllrobert
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7393
Registered: 11-22-2007
Location: Punta Banda BC
Member Is Offline
Mood: thriving in Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Islandbuilder
I became sensitized to the use of "De-Evolution" in college in 1970. The campus had the typical population cross section of the time; hippies, vets
fresh from Viet Nam, and a scattering of red necks and preppies.
In my Bio class a very buttoned down type was trying to insult us hippies by suggesting that because we had a lot of hair (ahhhhh, how I miss hair)
that perhaps it was a symptom of de-evolution.
The professor, a buttoned down fellow himself, was pretty emphatic making the point that evolution only goes forward, even if forward means to
re-visit an earlier adaptation. |
The old cradle-to-grave V. erection-to-resurection philosopy?
Bob Durrell
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
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I finally read this thread --- I avoided it because similar threads in the past have ended up with lots of gay bashing, and yes, there are members of
this forum who have pretty well quit posting here.
I just always go back to the musical, South Pacific and the song, You Have To Be Carefully Taught. They were way a head of their times, and oh so
correct.
Only when we quit identifying people by labels and stop defining who they are by their sexual orientation or ethnicity, all of this will it no longer
be a topic for conversation; and that will be a good thing.
I enjoy a good conversation about religion of any kind. The US was founded as a secular nation, so it is unbelievable how much that is distorted
today and how much tolerance has become a fading idea. JMHO --- back to just lurking around the edges of this one.
[Edited on 2-2-2013 by DianaT]
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durrelllrobert
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7393
Registered: 11-22-2007
Location: Punta Banda BC
Member Is Offline
Mood: thriving in Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Boy, you guys sure know how to push Ken Bondy's buttons.
But as to who is more discriminated, gays or atheists. My guess is that atheists will be accepted before gays. In fact it's happening in much of the
world.
As for Obama being a closet atheist. I don't think he considers himself to be one. As I see it atheists define believers to be basically
fundamentalists and everyone else falls into the category of 'closet atheists'. It's not black and white like that.
Atheists like to have the freedom to augment their beliefs as new information is uncovered. But they don't want to give believers the same right and
so judge them on 'bronze age' beliefs. Evolution comes forth in history, but you are labeled a closet atheist if you stop believing in 7day
creationism.
This whole thing about acceptance reminds me of that main character, Tevye, in Fiddler on the Roof who tells his daughter:
"Like the Good Book says - 'Each shall seek his own kind'. In other words, a bird may love a fish, but where would they build a home together?
" |
Am I an atheist if I don't believe that Mary was nailed by a "holy" ghost and remained a virgin?
Bob Durrell
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