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aster
Newbie
Posts: 24
Registered: 12-15-2013
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Baja Basura?
Just finished our first trip driving down & back from BCS - lots of beautiful sights, but one not-so-beautiful sight was the large amounts of
garbage lining the roadside and in the desert both on the outskirts of towns but also in the middle of nowhere. Thought I'd ask in here about the
dynamics of all this.
My girlfriend was particularly dismayed - she's as gringa as they come and grew up in the pristine Pacific NW. Me, I grew up in the Philly area and
also visiting family in Puerto Rico, so I'm used to poor low-infrastructure places where trash collection isn't always a given and a landscape that
shows it. The difference being that those are densely populated areas with millions of inhabitants, in Baja even I was surprised how much trash was
created and strewn by so few people.
The peak of that was after all the hard driving and seeing all that basura in the desert, descending to the Sea of Cortez and the entrance to Santa
Rosalia - trash everywhere and even a large dump that appeared to be on fire with acrid smoked hanging in the air, about the ugliest way to greet
visitors to your town I can think of. I could see my girlfriend's expectations being "adjusted" then in real-time. Fortunately our destination of
Mulege & Bahia Concepcion was a different story, no garbage there to speak of...
What's the deal? Is this just an infrastructure problem?
Or a cultural thing, i.e. the concept of being a steward of your surroundings if not the larger environment just hasn't percolated down there yet? I'm
guessing a few generations back most of their materials were biodegradable. Plastic, glass, metal, etc, don't break down so well.
I'd have thought that even without regular garbage collection, communities would get together and figure out some ad hoc fixes so the landscape isn't
dotted with midden heaps.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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I went down to Baja for some 60 years starting in the early '50's, and yes, it has ALWAYS bothered me also.
My take---------It is both a Cultural AND infrastructure situation, and I don't see it changing much. Eventually, they will get the idea that it is
hurting their economy, and maybe, just maybe, that realization will start to turn things around, but I am not holding my breath. There has been
improvement in some areas. In the mean time, one just has to over-look it and realize that it is NOT the USA.
Basura is a huge problem, in my Gringo opinion, and such a turn-off!!! (to we gringo's, anyway). I always try and do my part, and then some, in
picking it up around my camp, but it is mostly to make ME feel good, and does not impress the Natives, IMO.
Barry
[Edited on 1-27-2014 by Barry A.]
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Loretana
Senior Nomad
Posts: 825
Registered: 5-19-2006
Location: Oregon/Loreto
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Mood: alegre
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aster,
First of all, welcome to the Baja Nomad Forum.....
The last time I drove down from Oregon to my home in Loreto, I noticed how much LESS garbage there is out there, accumulated along the sides of the
road.
When we drove from Loreto to La Paz to shop and bank we remarked how that section of Mexico 1 was particularly clean, and we noticed large full trash
bags on the side of the road waiting to be picked up and disposed. So things really have improved. However..........
When you drop down off the "Hill of Hell" (Cuesta del Infierno) into Santa Rosalia it is shocking, how ugly that area is.
It is nice that you soldiered on and got to enjoy Bahia Concepcion. 
"If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration."
-Nikola Tesla
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sancho
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2524
Registered: 10-6-2004
Location: OC So Cal
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
My take---------It is both a Cultural AND infrastructure situation, and I don't see it changing much
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Barry, you more often than not, come up with valid points,
disposal ofl trash has has never been a high priority
in Mex , as pointed out, along with sparse disposal
service. I can remember when in the US trash was not
an issue either. I think it is changing in Mex, however slowly,
it is good to set an example, of sorts, to pick trash up
when you come across it, but there is a fine line in
trying to influence another culture with one's opinion
of how things should be done
[Edited on 1-27-2014 by sancho]
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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In some rural parts of the U.S. (and elsewhere of course) you might have been traveling down a paved road thru forests or grasslands and suddenly it
turns to gravel. Don't have to ask yourself why because it's pretty evident you've just gone from Johnson County to Hickam County. If you don't know
any better, as you travel Mex 1 down the peninsula, you'll think the whole thing is Johnson County. Lots of different and separate
tax/transportation/municipio pesos going every which way. The other questions can go away quickly when you see that and know politics changes all of
it every election and appointment cycle.
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Bwana_John
Nomad
Posts: 289
Registered: 10-17-2007
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I almost consider that trash lot on the north side of Santa Rosalia to be a "Modern Art Masterpiece".
The volume and distribution of the trash is really quite striking.
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vgabndo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3461
Registered: 12-8-2003
Location: Mt. Shasta, CA
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Mood: Checking-off my bucket list.
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I agree that the roadsides seem cleaner than they did 20 years ago. And I agree that it is a cultural thing. The number of times I've watched my hosts
just let trash fly into the wind is disheartening. Plastic bags and styrofoam fly best, and last a long time.
At the Sotres in Vizcaino the other day, I was proud to have remembered to take my canvas shopping bags, something I OFTEN forget in the States, at
the check out stand the muchacho bagging had to ask the cashier what the hell to do with the stupid bags the gringo brought! It seems to me that the
less developed world used to be WAY ahead of us in their use of re-usable shopping bags. Clearly it was something new to this young professional
plastic bagger.
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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LancairDriver
Super Nomad
Posts: 1592
Registered: 2-22-2008
Location: On the Road
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The section of Baja that may appear to have the least Basura appearance may have more to do with the favorable wind trash removal conditions in that
area. I believe it is more of a cultural problem although infrastructure certainly is a factor. Part of my opinion is formed by a River I fish in
Oregon that has a pocket of Hispanic people living along the shore in a certain section. This is the only area along the River littered with all
manner of trash to include used disposable diapers on an otherwise fairly pristine River. Just an observation, not a scientific poll.
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Pompano
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8194
Registered: 11-14-2004
Location: Bay of Conception and Up North
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Mood: Optimistic
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Soon after I bought my first home in Baja, I invited my mother and father to visit. I wanted to take them fishing right away. Instead, my mother
asked why was all that garbage littering the roadsides and why was I not doing something about it?
I've got down to the business at hand near my home and it has improved a lot since then. Every year the attitude spreads and it gets prettier and
less littered. Rest easy, Mom...Rome was not built in a day.
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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In my particular little pueblo I'm always glad to see my gringo neighbors keep their homes and lots and areas clean and clear but I am never pleased
to hear them prattle on about how they need to "Set an example for the Mexicans".
I do like thread like this because they remind me to do something about my own place. I think tomorrow I'll take a few truck loads of that mountain of
trash behind my house out to the dump. I have a regular routine to keep things tidy around here. I did that last year and I'll do it again this year.
[Edited on 1-27-2014 by Osprey]
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aster
Newbie
Posts: 24
Registered: 12-15-2013
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Ah, good to know it wasn't just me. That trashed Santa Rosalia panorama is something else - tourist $$$ are obviously not remotely a priority in that
town. I sorta regret not photographing the dump fire for posterity's sake, but we just wanted to get the hell outta there.
And I agree Osprey, the whole "set an example for the locals" spiel can sometimes seem like a resurrection (if it ever truly left us) of the White
Man's Burden, and it can be pretty unsavory. The irony is, us gringos are a rich enough society that we can our afford mass-scale polluting done
out-of-sight-out-of-mind while smugly patting ourselves on the back for recycling some junk mail catalogues and aluminum cans.
On the flipside, I truly believe cultures can learn a lot from each other and in this case there's absolutely no good impact or secret benefits from
throwing your trash wherever you want. In other comparably poor areas I've been (including elsewhere in MX) it's never looked that bad. Good to hear
it's getting better.
Reminds me that whenever I first arrive in Mexico, I always laugh when these two thoughts arise like clockwork:
"Man, great to be back in a place where they don't have a stick up their a-- about everything!"
followed 10 minutes later by
"Hmm, they really need to get a stick up their a-- about a few things down here..."
[Edited on 1-27-2014 by aster]
[Edited on 1-27-2014 by aster]
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13043
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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as mentioned before, it is both a cultural difference as well as a lack of infrastructure & education....as well as a wind problem.
I have seen an enormous difference in the amount of garbage in the last 20 years. There didnt used to be any garbage cans anywhere and now there are
alot more..but without proper lids, the garbage flies out, ravens & dogs pull it out and it gets caught in the bushes.
Groups like Wildcoast are coming to the towns and doing workshops and educational programs and clean ups...when people have to pick up the garbage in
their barrio I think they think twice before tossing it out...but much of it is a result of wind.
Now the dumps are being moved out of site...they used to be located for convenience just outside the villages and it really doesnt bother the locals
to see it there. Often they really dont get what all the fuss is about when gringos bring up the subject.
But it IS slowly getting better.
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Kgryfon
Senior Nomad
Posts: 624
Registered: 1-27-2009
Location: East Bay, CA
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| Quote: | Originally posted by aster
Reminds me that whenever I first arrive in Mexico, I always laugh when these two thoughts arise like clockwork:
"Man, great to be back in a place where they don't have a stick up their a-- about everything!"
followed 10 minutes later by
"Hmm, they really need to get a stick up their a-- about a few things down here..."
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Perfect, aster...  Welcome to the forum!
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woody with a view
PITA Nomad
Posts: 15939
Registered: 11-8-2004
Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
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Mood: Everchangin'
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funny thing is the govt has installed trash cans along the highway (and some dirt roads) but now the animals know where to get a free meal, that is if
the recyclers don't just toss the garbage out of the way until they get to the bottom while searching for a can.
has anyone ever seen a roadside trashcan being emptied along the hiway?
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Sandlefoot
Nomad
Posts: 219
Registered: 10-31-2011
Location: La Paz
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Mood: Home
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I have been driving Mex 1 for 15 years and see less trash now than ever. At one time there where mountains of old appliances just off the road,
there where Cars that had wrecked that were piled by the acre along the road, then of course there where the "B" trash flying around. (Boxes,
buckets, bottles, and bags). As bad as it is now it is a bunch better than it was, and I think they are working very hard at getting more of it
cleaned up. I have trash pick up twice a week here in La Paz and there is no charge for it!!!!! They are trying !!!!
Happy Trails
" Don't find fault, find a remedy; anyone can complain." Henry Ford
If you are not living on the edge...you are taking up to much space!
Just because it may not be a good idea does not mean it will not be fun!!!
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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I took a good friend of mine from Mexico fishing in British Columbia. Of course he commented on the scenery and it was interesting to get his
perspective of what he thought was going on. As you know, things get even tidier when you cross the border going north and it becomes a part of the
national obsession. As we were going through a little town with newly painted white picket fences and carefully manicured lawns he commented that he
was feeling a bit stifled and wondered if the local residents every had any fun or did they just clean their yards all day long.
I had a long discussion that it is good to visit and see how others choose to live but it is rude to make judgements about a different way of life.
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DavidE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3814
Registered: 12-1-2003
Location: Baja California México
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Mood: 'At home we demand facts and get them. In Mexico one subsists on rumor and never demands anything.' Charles Flandrau,
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I agree with Shari.
Dogs and garbage bags. Boil a handful of nasty chilies in a quart of water. Let cool. Fill empty windex bottle. Spray down bags after they have gone
into the can. You might find one punctured with teeth marks but that's as far as a dog's gonna get. Habanero chilies work best but any thermonuclear
grade will do.
A Lot To See And A Lot To Do
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
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Definitely a cultural thing. Pristine antiseptic cleanliness is not a virtue down south. My wife has a really big problem with that; she can't
understand it; it doesn't make sense to her why people won't paint the stucco, finish the construction on the house, keep their yards kempt, get rid
of vehicle carcasses, etc., etc., etc.
But, I will say that I have noticed an overt effort to clean things up: basura baskets everywhere where once there were none, signs on the highway
encouraging keeping the roads clean by telling travelers to hold onto and dispose of their trash appropriately. Other things like food handlers
wearing hair nets and wearing plastic gloves. I think that USA restaurants and markets coming in and bringing management and operation practices with
them helps to set some examples and gives local businesses competition in competing operationally similarly.
Positive changes to culture come slowly; takes time, but it is arriving.
When I visited Mexico City (just before the big 1985 earthquake), there were many things that stood out that were very counter to expectations to a
home grown Orange County Californian. Not that much graffiti (especially compared to that in Los Angeles), no visible prostitution, ALL women and
girls very conservatively and tastefully dressed everywhere at all times (especially compared to even those in Orange County), all young people were
respectful and genuinely polite. There are good and bad things in culture. These are just some of the good things.
One other thing that stood out in my memory. I toured the high rent district where politicians and wealthy successful well known personalities and
movie/TV stars lived...their yards were a mess and exterior maintenance neglected. I concluded unkemptness was part of the culture. Not sure and
still undecided if that is such a bad thing.
I think Antiseptic households, absolutely perfectly flawless yards and homes goes together with not liking your food on your dinner plate to touch
each other. I think THAT is a bad cultural obsession, but, then again, I am a fisherman. Besides, if you don't like your food to touch, you
shouldn't be eating Mexican food in the first place.
My business partner used to closely inspect his knives, forks and spoons for spotting and would send it back if they had any drying spots. Drove me
nuts. My mother in law would not let any trash accumulate in any trash can in her house. She would constantly be washing clothes because she didn't
like the clothes hamper to have much in it. Some people watch food expiration dates like hawks...if it is close to or at an expiration date they
throw good food away.
I understand that the former owner of Trader Joes is opening up a chain of food markets that stock only date expired but still safe food.
Clean Freaks like Howie Mandel and Jerry Seinfeld are obsessive about general cleanliness. Give some people a little bit of science and they go nuts
and become irrational germaphobes using antibacterial hand sanitizers frequently, refusing to shake hands and wearing face masks...that's just
ignorance. But, there you have it...extremes on both sides of the cleanliness fence. The healthy thing is actually some reasonable balance. We
humans are designed to withstand a reasonable level of dirt and germs. Over Protecting your kids and yourself is actually unhealthy and actually
hurts your immune system.
[Edited on 1-28-2014 by MitchMan]
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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5896
Registered: 7-18-2011
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I was stoked to see a trash can in the 7 sisters recently. I pulled over and put a bag of trash in it! Hopefully the birds didn't rip it to shreds
and scatter it everywhere. I usually burn my trash when in desolate regions.
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durrelllrobert
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7393
Registered: 11-22-2007
Location: Punta Banda BC
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Mood: thriving in Baja
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IMHO it's just as much infrastructure as cultural
Remember "Tin Can Beach" before it was cleaned up and became Huntington Beach in the 70s:
That was lack of infrastructure (no trash pick up) so everything got left on the beach which had nothing to do with culture.
All those new developments along Blvd 2000 heading to the Otay crossing don't have all-up trash pickup yet and I've seen people dropping off their
trash along the roadway and I don't think that's cultural either. It has to go somewhere.
Bob Durrell
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