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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by paranewbi
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajafun777
You can keep your non-christian life and I guess when you find out you were wrong it will be in a burning ring of fire....... |
Thanks for this lovely and informative post Bajafun777. It reminds me, in the immortal words of Bertrand Russell, why I am not a christian.
A god who offers absolutely no evidence for his/her existence, yet who would barbeque me in hell for eternity just for not believing in him/her, no
matter how good my life was otherwise, is just too cruel and immoral to be real. |
Interesting Ken.
Why would God deal any other way with a person who just made the statement you did. You have chosen to not take what was offered and determined your
own eternity. How more gracious could God be then to allow us to make our own choices...no matter how cruel we are to ourselves (and each other).
"But Abraham said. "If they won't listen to MOses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead."" NLT Luke 16:31
-11 others (not John) went to their death on the basis of seeing someone rise from the dead.
-Over 500 others saw a person raised from the dead.
-The prevailing government in a matter of years felt threatened by a 'religion' founded on someone rising from the dead.
I could go on and on but...'they won't listen' |
paranewbi please do not quote biblical verse to me unless you acknowledge and accept everything your god commands you in that repulsive book. Like
.....
You must kill anyone who does not worship your particular god (Deuteronomy 13:7-11)
You must kill anyone who works on weekends (Exodus 31:15, 35:2)
It is perfectly acceptable to keep slaves, as long as you buy them from neighboring countries and don't beat them so badly as to injure their eyes
(Leviticus 25:44, Exodus 21:20 and 26).
Virgin women who are raped must marry their rapist (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
You must kill your children for talking back to you (Leviticus 20:9, Exodus 21:17)
I could go on with other gems of biblical wisdom from the inerrant creator of the universe but, as you say, "they won't listen". So please make your
points without citing the biblical garbage as support. It is offensive.
Back to my point. If your god was real, and if he/she was loving, and if he/she knew that I didn't believe in him/her, don't you think he/she might
give me some type of evidence of his/her existence, some little sign, before frying me for eternity? Seems like that's the loving thing to do.
[Edited on 6-10-2012 by Ken Bondy]
carpe diem!
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Truth is less important than devotion. |
So disappointed that you could possibly say that amigo. Please reconsider. How could ANYTHING be more important than truth? What benefit accrues by
devoting yourself to something that is not true? |
Comfort. Fulfillment.
Religion has a dismal record in unearthing our universes physical laws, which I'm referring as scientific truths. The middle ages were the dark ages.
People were burned for discovering basic physical laws.
When I wrote about religious truth last night I was thinking of personal truths. Truths that are different for one individual from another and which
can't be verified and measured by man.
I still maintain that there is a place for religion in man that science can't approach. Knowing that CO2 forms covalent bonds between it's atoms is an
important truth that provides little comfort to any individual. Scientific truth is obtained in a cold world of mathematics and computer like
precision. An almost robotic like assessment.
Religious truth is all about satisfaction.
I'm going to stick this in here because it's relevant:
When Mother Theresa died they published her diaries. There they found writings that showed that she had doubts virtually her entire life. By doubts
they meant she wasn't completely sure of God's existence. But she fought these doubts with faith. She willed herself to believe in something she
wasn't sure about completely and she worked on this all her life. Such a thing is absurd in the scientific approach to truth where faith plays no role
whatsoever. So her truth was achieved through prayer and effort.
Ken, I wrote that my statements come from my observations of religious friends. I tried to understand their world.
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BajaDove
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This quote came up on my facebook the other day. Seems to fit here. I don't know who I'm miss quoting.
"Religion is like a penis. It's good to have one. Fine to be proud of it, But don't take it out and wave it around, or try to stuff it down my kid
throat."
If its not where it is, its where it isn\'t.
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Bajafun777
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Ken, God will not BBQ you in hell, however your own life choices will since you know about Jesus and his teachings but choose another path which does
not accept him. Only Jesus is the path into heaven.
Some of the religious quotes here are not from the new testament which gave everyone a path which did not allow violence on others. One quote without
taking in the entire teaching of the bible is one which only is an attempt to make people stray from the word of God.
Skipjack Joe, it should be noted that Mother Theresa saw so much pain and suffering during her years of service to Jesus that it took a toll on her in
more ways than any of us will ever understand. Even though she lived this world of pain and suffering her belief in Jesus and his teachings made
others she helped have a way to overcome their life of despair. She may have had doubts at some point but Jesus found a way to overcome those doubts
and keep her helping those much less fortunate and needing the word of God. Prayer is the way to truth and a better way to overcome those things in
life that seem to have no way out. May she rest in peace along with the being in the loving arms of Jesus.
Jesus has more than proved his being on earth and God sent him so that someone that is lost such as you Ken can be saved. Jesus paid for your sins so
enjoy his gift and truly read the new testament for a better understanding of Jesus's love of you. Christians do not want you to burn in hell and I
definately will pray for you and hoping a better loving life with Jesus will happen for you. I have traveled both paths and let me confess to you and
others that the path with Jesus has enriched my life and family. Take Care & Travel Safe----"No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777
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Pompano
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DO I NEED RELIGION? One never knows for sure, right? Until that most important time...and even then it could be
all about YOUR perception of what YOU expect it to be.
Which might not be the case!...as told here:
A Preacher Goes Hunting
A country preacher decided to skip services one Sunday and head
to the hills to do some bear hunting.
As he rounded the corner
on a perilous twist in the trail, he and a bear collided,
sending him and his rifle tumbling down the mountainside. Before
he knew it, his rifle went one way and he went the other,
landing on a rock and breaking both legs.
That was the good news.
The bad news was the ferocious bear charging at him from a
distance, and he couldn't move.
"Oh, Lord," the preacher prayed,
"I'm so sorry for skipping services today to come out here and
hunt. Please forgive me and grant me just one wish...please make
a Christian out of that bear that's coming at me. Please, Lord!"
That very instant, the bear skidded to a halt, fell to its
knees, clasped its paws together and began to pray aloud right
at the preacher's feet.
"Dear God, bless this food I am about to
receive...."
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajafun777
Some of the religious quotes here are not from the new testament which gave everyone a path which did not allow violence on others. One quote without
taking in the entire teaching of the bible is one which only is an attempt to make people stray from the word of God. |
Like most religious people, Bajafun777, you state things with certainty that you could not possibly know. Evidence please.
You need to read your bible more carefully. Jesus himself said that every word in the old testament must be obeyed "...until all things have taken
place." (Matthew 5:18). So that old, tired cherry pick religious people always use to ignore biblical evil ("oh, that's in the old testament, jesus
fixed all that") can't be used here. Sorry.
You pray for me, I will think for you.
[Edited on 6-10-2012 by Ken Bondy]
carpe diem!
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Truth is less important than devotion. |
So disappointed that you could possibly say that amigo. Please reconsider. How could ANYTHING be more important than truth? What benefit accrues by
devoting yourself to something that is not true? |
Comfort. Fulfillment.
Religion has a dismal record in unearthing our universes physical laws, which I'm referring as scientific truths. The middle ages were the dark ages.
People were burned for discovering basic physical laws.
When I wrote about religious truth last night I was thinking of personal truths. Truths that are different for one individual from another and which
can't be verified and measured by man.
I still maintain that there is a place for religion in man that science can't approach. Knowing that CO2 forms covalent bonds between it's atoms is an
important truth that provides little comfort to any individual. Scientific truth is obtained in a cold world of mathematics and computer like
precision. An almost robotic like assessment.
Religious truth is all about satisfaction.
I'm going to stick this in here because it's relevant:
When Mother Theresa died they published her diaries. There they found writings that showed that she had doubts virtually her entire life. By doubts
they meant she wasn't completely sure of God's existence. But she fought these doubts with faith. She willed herself to believe in something she
wasn't sure about completely and she worked on this all her life. Such a thing is absurd in the scientific approach to truth where faith plays no role
whatsoever. So her truth was achieved through prayer and effort.
Ken, I wrote that my statements come from my observations of religious friends. I tried to understand their world. |
You know I respect your opinion Igor, but I am bewildered at how you could possibly think that comfort and fulfillment could ever be realized from a
concept which is not true. Comfort and fulfillment comes from seeking truth, not ignoring it. Some comfort and fulfillment might be achieved
short-term by believing in an imaginary god, but it is just that, temporary.
"Religious truth" seems to me to be an oxymarooon.
I get great comfort and fulfillment from the beauty and complexity of the natural world, and the fact that through honest scientific investigation we
are learning more about it and how it came to be. The natural world is so much more beautiful than any of the religious fairy tales.
[Edited on 6-10-2012 by Ken Bondy]
carpe diem!
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bufeo
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My, my. I poked my head in here this morning to see what all the fuss was about with Skeet's "Farewell Speech".
I read the entire thread then with interest, from a non-believer's perspective, that is.
I've sure run into a lot of religious zealots during my 75 years. None has convinced me, though, to latch onto their beliefs.
Allen R
Oh, btw, my father was a Southern Presbyterian minister, so religious indoctrination I've had.
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Bajafun777
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Ken, it is your choice to do as you please but hoping for the best for you and the others that choose a different path. Again, to take things out of
the bible with one liners is not going to help anyones understanding. I do not in fact know all and never will but I do know that when reading and
being in prayer groups it helps to better understand the word of God.
Misunderstanding of bible and Gods path for us is not going to be resolved on this site. We could go back and forth with verses from the bible but
this is not the right way to share the word with you and others, however Church would best serve that purpose. I wish you the best in your quest for
truth but again it will not be found on this site regarding God. I will not preach to you or others but just let you know it has made a big change in
my life. I have been given so many oppurtunies due to prayers, along with having some very close calls of life being over my belief in Jesus has
brought me back from being taken from this life. So, my life will end in loving and accepting God's path in life.
Again, I have said a prayer for you and others here that are so set on the path which is not God's will. Every man and woman makes a choice and I
will make mine with the Lord. Hopefully some day when I am called home I will enjoy God in ways that I never even dreamed of. Take Care & Travel
Safe-----"No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777
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Iflyfish
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
Spinoza, the first vocal, open pantheist struck a tenous balance by declaring his God was nature magnified to infinity. The view represents, to me, a
massive glue that becomes very convenient. God as nature becomes as stunningly uber as any diety, all things considered and lessons learned at
nature's knee could be very humbling (as in "dead or alive", saved by the bell moments). Who/what is more powerfully grand and awful than what we
already know about nature? |
Well said, I have always felt more "spiritual" in nature where I feel great awe, hope and wonder, experience/feelings that I hope to continue to have
as long as I live on this planet. I symbolically spit when saying this word as it has been denigrated to mean something akin to an organ when it is in
actuality a mood / state of being generated by specific areas in the brain as referenced in a previous post). These “spiritual” states can be induced
by direct electrical brain stimulation in particular regions of the brain, deep meditation, intense sexual experiences, extreme pain, near death
experiences, anoxia, immersion in nature, psychedelic drugs, hypnogogic dream states, brain trauma or neurofeeback.
The great Naturalist and Transcendental writers have always seen nature as their cathedrals.
I like the way Alfred, Lord Tennyson said it.
Flower in the crannied wall,
I pluck you out of the crannies,
I hold you here, root and all, in my hand,
Little flower -but if I could understand
What you are, root and all, and all in all,
I should know what God and man is.
or the wonder of Basho the 17th Century Japanese poet.
When I look carefully
I see the nazuna blooming
by the hedge!
Ah, would that I could write with the pith of an Osprey!
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oxxo
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
A healthy resolution of this developmental issue is the conclusion that " I am good and bad and that is good" (Get along with others who are also good
and bad). Less positive resolutions of this developmental issue generate destructive conclusions such as "I am good and others are bad" (Do away with
others) or "I am bad and others are good" (Depression and Masochism), "I am bad and others are bad" (Nihilism, Sadism and Sociopathy, Do away with
them and me). |
This concept is the subject of a book, "I'm Okay, You're Okay" written by an acquaintance of mine, an academic. Honest exploration and examination of
any subject, religion for example, can lead to mutual understanding, if not agreement.
the Brazilian theologist Leonardo Boff wrote:
In a round table discussion about religion and freedom in which Dalai Lama
and myself were participating at recess, I maliciously and also with interest, asked him: “Your holiness, what is the best religion?”
I thought he would say: “The Tibetan Buddhism” or “The oriental religions, much older than Christianity.”
The Dalai Lama paused, smiled and looked me in the eyes …. which surprised me because I knew of the malice contained in my question.
He answered: “The best religion is the one that gets you closest to God. It is the one that makes you a better person.”
To get out of my embarrassment with such a wise answer, I asked: “What is it that makes me better?”
He responded:
“Whatever makes you
more compassionate,
more sensible,
more detached,
more loving,
more humanitarian,
more responsible,
more ethical.”
“The religion that will do that for you is the best religion”
I was silent for a moment, marveling and even today thinking of his wise and irrefutable response:
“I am not interested, my friend, about your religion or if you are religious or not.
“What really is important to me is your behavior in front of your peers, family, work, community, and in front of the world.
“Remember, the universe is the echo of our actions and our thoughts.”
“The law of action and reaction is not exclusively for physics. It is also of human relations. If I act with goodness, I will receive goodness. If I
act with evil, I will get evil.”
“What our grandparents told us is the pure truth. You will always have what you desire for others. Being happy is not a matter of destiny. It is a
matter of options.”
Finally he said:
“Take care of your Thoughts because they become Words.
Take care of your Words because they will become Actions.
Take care of your Actions because they will become Habits.
Take care of your Habits because they will form your Character.
Take care of your Character because it will form your Destiny,
and your Destiny will be your Life
… and …
“There is no religion higher than the Truth.”
This exchange has given me, personally, great comfort. Unfortunately, what I see around me is too many religions, specifically Christian and Muslim,
do not make many of their adherents better people. Is that the fault of the specific religion or specific people? My conclusion and answer is that
it is the fault of both. So I have taken his High, Holy Llamaness's advice. I, for one, am searching for "the Truth." I am convinced I have found
it. "The Truth" hasn't made me a perfect person, but I believe that it has made me an evolving better person. |
I marvel a this profound dialogue. Thank you so much for sharing this with us. Gives me shivers and makes me smile! So much truth in such a short
exchange, gets to the heart of it doesn't it.
“Remember, the universe is the echo of our actions and our thoughts.” I am sure one can get there by long enough pondering on this simple statement.
Gives me goosebumps. This shifts the focus from god out there to god in here and that changes everything!
Thank you oxxo.
Iflyfishingness
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Osprey
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OMG. Thanx flyguy
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Barry A.
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Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oxxo
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
A healthy resolution of this developmental issue is the conclusion that " I am good and bad and that is good" (Get along with others who are also good
and bad). Less positive resolutions of this developmental issue generate destructive conclusions such as "I am good and others are bad" (Do away with
others) or "I am bad and others are good" (Depression and Masochism), "I am bad and others are bad" (Nihilism, Sadism and Sociopathy, Do away with
them and me). |
This concept is the subject of a book, "I'm Okay, You're Okay" written by an acquaintance of mine, an academic. Honest exploration and examination of
any subject, religion for example, can lead to mutual understanding, if not agreement.
the Brazilian theologist Leonardo Boff wrote:
In a round table discussion about religion and freedom in which Dalai Lama
and myself were participating at recess, I maliciously and also with interest, asked him: “Your holiness, what is the best religion?”
I thought he would say: “The Tibetan Buddhism” or “The oriental religions, much older than Christianity.”
The Dalai Lama paused, smiled and looked me in the eyes …. which surprised me because I knew of the malice contained in my question.
He answered: “The best religion is the one that gets you closest to God. It is the one that makes you a better person.”
To get out of my embarrassment with such a wise answer, I asked: “What is it that makes me better?”
He responded:
“Whatever makes you
more compassionate,
more sensible,
more detached,
more loving,
more humanitarian,
more responsible,
more ethical.”
“The religion that will do that for you is the best religion”
I was silent for a moment, marveling and even today thinking of his wise and irrefutable response:
“I am not interested, my friend, about your religion or if you are religious or not.
“What really is important to me is your behavior in front of your peers, family, work, community, and in front of the world.
“Remember, the universe is the echo of our actions and our thoughts.”
“The law of action and reaction is not exclusively for physics. It is also of human relations. If I act with goodness, I will receive goodness. If I
act with evil, I will get evil.”
“What our grandparents told us is the pure truth. You will always have what you desire for others. Being happy is not a matter of destiny. It is a
matter of options.”
Finally he said:
“Take care of your Thoughts because they become Words.
Take care of your Words because they will become Actions.
Take care of your Actions because they will become Habits.
Take care of your Habits because they will form your Character.
Take care of your Character because it will form your Destiny,
and your Destiny will be your Life
… and …
“There is no religion higher than the Truth.”
This exchange has given me, personally, great comfort. Unfortunately, what I see around me is too many religions, specifically Christian and Muslim,
do not make many of their adherents better people. Is that the fault of the specific religion or specific people? My conclusion and answer is that
it is the fault of both. So I have taken his High, Holy Llamaness's advice. I, for one, am searching for "the Truth." I am convinced I have found
it. "The Truth" hasn't made me a perfect person, but I believe that it has made me an evolving better person. |
BINGO!!!!! You (& the Dalai Lama) nailed it, Oxxo, for me at least. Personally, I am Agnostic, but try to follow the relevant "Golden Rules".
For me, "end of story".
In answer to an above poster referencing me---------Tho I believe in the separation of Church and State in principal, I am not hung up on the concept,
and am not at all disturbed by "symbols" that historically have been on Public Lands belonging to a Country that I feel was essentially founded on
Christian/Judeo principals and beliefs from all that I have read (I was a SW USA History Minor in College).
Barry
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DianaT
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Thank you all for the great discussion about spirituality, religion, etc. It is Sunday and when we are here in Baja I miss attending our
Unitarian/Universalist Church where just about every tradition is represented including atheism, all the eastern traditions, western traditions,
ancient traditions, etc.
It is a place where the truth is not spelled with a capital T. Some people feel uncomfortable with our church because they believe in one TRUTH for
all. Thus, while not all, many of you with your search and discussion fill in for missing church today.
On edit --- Barry, the founders of the US were mostly a part of the liberal religious traditions of the time. They were Diests and children of the
enlightenment ---- they were not the fundamentalist Christians that some like to think they were. Even George Washington, while claiming to be an
Anglican did not take communion.
[Edited on 6-10-2012 by DianaT]
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paranewbi
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Hi Ken;
You do quote correctly from the Old Testament. I am glad you have read some. What you may not understand is that God chose the descendants of Abraham
to carry forth the message that came to the whole world on the sacrifice of his son Jesus Christ. The ‘laws’ as quoted by you and much more were in
place to assure to some extent that the carrying forth of the message would meet with some success as the ability of man on his own was very limited,
and actually so if you read of the tribes in the world at that time and how they conducted themselves outside of the intervention of God. (Much as
the world at this time is progressing so ‘beautifully’ and ‘naturally’ now, yahoo! [sarcasm]).
Simply stated; The Jews were chosen to carry the word of God and the subsequent “Good News” that came with the Cross and the release of the burden of
the ‘law’ as per your quotes (‘The vale was torn’). The Jews were not chosen to Salvation and yes some of them are not in heaven. The laws were
there to help the Jews to have a modicum of longevity (wow! Only civilization still here! Even though many have tried to get rid of them). If you
look at Leviticus you will find how to get rid of mold on the walls of your house without getting sick! Thank you God!
This of course is an answer to your quoting a portion of the Bible we as Christians know we are no longer held to (and by the way, yes the
admonishment to carry the laws was valid as you quote from Mathew, but please take note that most quotes out of context are deceptive and you will
find that Christ’s disciples picked grain on the Sabbath and that answer to your context can be found in many places other than the isolation you
choose to quote it as, let’s be sincere here if not in agreement please).
Your opinion is just that as mine is of course just mine. Argument is how reasonable men reason with each other. Proof is how the unreasonable are
reasoned with. Outside of that it is foolishness that causes a dialogue.
I can offer you some references to reason with you by much greater minds than mine if you need it intellectually. U2U me if you are interested.
If not, then I would like to say God Bless you Bajafun777! I hope to meet you one day!
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Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3326
Registered: 12-13-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajafun777
Ken, it is your choice to do as you please but hoping for the best for you and the others that choose a different path. Again, to take things out of
the bible with one liners is not going to help anyones understanding. I do not in fact know all and never will but I do know that when reading and
being in prayer groups it helps to better understand the word of God.
Misunderstanding of bible and Gods path for us is not going to be resolved on this site. We could go back and forth with verses from the bible but
this is not the right way to share the word with you and others, however Church would best serve that purpose. I wish you the best in your quest for
truth but again it will not be found on this site regarding God. I will not preach to you or others but just let you know it has made a big change in
my life. I have been given so many oppurtunies due to prayers, along with having some very close calls of life being over my belief in Jesus has
brought me back from being taken from this life. So, my life will end in loving and accepting God's path in life.
Again, I have said a prayer for you and others here that are so set on the path which is not God's will. Every man and woman makes a choice and I
will make mine with the Lord. Hopefully some day when I am called home I will enjoy God in ways that I never even dreamed of. Take Care & Travel
Safe-----"No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777 |
Bajafun777
There are billions of people (muslims and jews) who emphatically disagree with your religious views. They believe, just as fervently as you, in a
completely different religious story. They have exactly the same evidence you have for what you believe - none. Does this bother you? It should,
since each of the three major monotheistic religions tells its believers that non-believers must be killed (see Deuteronomy 13:7-11 for the killing
instructions to christians and jews, similar instructions are found throughout the qur'an). Killing people for believing in a different fairy tale
has largely gone out of fashion in the western world, but it is still very popular in some other parts of the world. As a religious person who
believes in one of the conflicting religions, do you think this situation is healthy for the future of human civilization?
As to biblical "one-liners", please show me where any of my biblical quotes was taken out of context or was not precisely what is stated in the bible.
You simply can't wordsmith or cherry pick these vicious, evil quotes from the "good book". The killing instructions in Deuteronomy (13:7-11) are
even prefaced by a message from god itself (Deuteronomy 13:1) telling us that his killing instructions must be taken literally (...do not add or
subtract anything from what I command you...)
carpe diem!
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajafun777
Ken, it is your choice to do as you please but hoping for the best for you and the others that choose a different path. Again, to take things out of
the bible with one liners is not going to help anyones understanding. I do not in fact know all and never will but I do know that when reading and
being in prayer groups it helps to better understand the word of God.
Misunderstanding of bible and Gods path for us is not going to be resolved on this site. We could go back and forth with verses from the bible but
this is not the right way to share the word with you and others, however Church would best serve that purpose. I wish you the best in your quest for
truth but again it will not be found on this site regarding God. I will not preach to you or others but just let you know it has made a big change in
my life. I have been given so many oppurtunies due to prayers, along with having some very close calls of life being over my belief in Jesus has
brought me back from being taken from this life. So, my life will end in loving and accepting God's path in life.
Again, I have said a prayer for you and others here that are so set on the path which is not God's will. Every man and woman makes a choice and I
will make mine with the Lord. Hopefully some day when I am called home I will enjoy God in ways that I never even dreamed of. Take Care & Travel
Safe-----"No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777 |
I have been following this exchange you are having with Ken and appreciate both of you sharing your divergent perspectives and earnest attempt to
share your thinking/beliefs. It is refreshing to see and to engage in civil dialogue about these issues on Nomad, where rancor has so often ruled the
day.
I think Ken has eloquently laid out the case for reason and science and the cherry picking of scripture to make a circular argument by those who
buttress their arguments by quoting scripture. (It is true because the bible told me so) You have laid out the case for the value of belief based upon
something other than science and reason. You have also shared with us the value of this belief system in your own life and how that belief system has
in your view literally saved your life and made you a better person.
Osprey has well presented a clear case for the resolution of the dualistic view of god/man, man/nature in laying out the case that we are an integral
part of nature and can find fulfillment and the answers to our questions in it.
Others, including myself have elaborated on the neuro/psychological/mythological underpinnings of "religious" experience.
Others have provided us with confrontations of hubris and the real experience of lightness and liberation that laughter can bring.
In my view Oxxo has presented a compelling integration of these seeming divergent perspectives in his quotes from the Dali Lama.
What a great dialogue! Viva fellow Nomads.
Iflyfishconminomadamigos
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Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3326
Registered: 12-13-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mellow
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| Quote: | Originally posted by paranewbi
Hi Ken;
You do quote correctly from the Old Testament. I am glad you have read some. What you may not understand is that God chose the descendants of Abraham
to carry forth the message that came to the whole world on the sacrifice of his son Jesus Christ. The ‘laws’ as quoted by you and much more were in
place to assure to some extent that the carrying forth of the message would meet with some success as the ability of man on his own was very limited,
and actually so if you read of the tribes in the world at that time and how they conducted themselves outside of the intervention of God. (Much as
the world at this time is progressing so ‘beautifully’ and ‘naturally’ now, yahoo! [sarcasm]).
Simply stated; The Jews were chosen to carry the word of God and the subsequent “Good News” that came with the Cross and the release of the burden of
the ‘law’ as per your quotes (‘The vale was torn’). The Jews were not chosen to Salvation and yes some of them are not in heaven. The laws were
there to help the Jews to have a modicum of longevity (wow! Only civilization still here! Even though many have tried to get rid of them). If you
look at Leviticus you will find how to get rid of mold on the walls of your house without getting sick! Thank you God!
This of course is an answer to your quoting a portion of the Bible we as Christians know we are no longer held to (and by the way, yes the
admonishment to carry the laws was valid as you quote from Mathew, but please take note that most quotes out of context are deceptive and you will
find that Christ’s disciples picked grain on the Sabbath and that answer to your context can be found in many places other than the isolation you
choose to quote it as, let’s be sincere here if not in agreement please).
Your opinion is just that as mine is of course just mine. Argument is how reasonable men reason with each other. Proof is how the unreasonable are
reasoned with. Outside of that it is foolishness that causes a dialogue.
I can offer you some references to reason with you by much greater minds than mine if you need it intellectually. U2U me if you are interested.
If not, then I would like to say God Bless you Bajafun777! I hope to meet you one day! |
Thanks paranewbi, but, like other religious people, you state things with certainty that you could not possibly know. If there was any evidence for
what you state absolutely, I would consider it. Lacking evidence for the supernatural, I will take my comfort from the natural world, which is much
more beautiful than any of the religious stories I have heard.
Spare me your blessings and your prayers, but I would enjoy meeting you sometime. We would have a spirited discussion 
carpe diem!
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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3508
Registered: 10-2-2006
Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
Member Is Offline
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I've stayed out of this fray but now wonder why anyone here needs to ARGUE and DEBATE religion or politics ANY FURTHER?
What is wrong with all of you?
Isn't there a forum somewhere where you can espouse your silliness?
Politics and religion go hand in hand: both corrupt and misguided and meant to fool the masses -- who are obviously easily fooled.
IF any of you nomads NEED to discuss either religion or politics, take it to OT or somewhere else.
Otherwise, carry on.
That is all.
And remember, HAVE FUN! Don't be so serious!
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
OMG. Thanx flyguy |
What!!?? A religious experience Osprey? Or was the OMG simply an expression of some orgasmic experience you were having at the time. I have found
myself uttering exactly the same phrase at times of mostly shared bliss, or at least when I was led to believe they were shared. How was it for you?
Your welcome, it was ok for me.
Iflyfishshakingmyheadsometimes
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