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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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Mood: Skeptical
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Wow!
My dogma just barked!
So now, after checking in, I am overwhelmed by the Littany that is The BajaNomad. Happy Sunday to y'all! 
I truly appreciate all of the thought that has gone into this discussion. Such eloquence!
For all the pages of exchange I have formed an opinion:  That's it.
Interesting the contrast between those with open minds and those whose religious constraints serve as conversation stoppers, as DianaT pointed out.
Ya know...thems in they resolve surely believe that what they believe is not open for any other possibilities. Blind Faith is Absolute! Period!
End of conversation! However, being human belies the Absolute and betrays their "not one of you" stance, and so they amble on, pedantically.
Hallelujah!
Try as I might, I cannot find Jesus on The BajaNomad. But I did meet a guy in Baja named Heysoos. 
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
My dogma just barked!
So now, after checking in, I am overwhelmed by the Littany that is The BajaNomad. Happy Sunday to y'all!
I truly appreciate all of the thought that has gone into this discussion. Such eloquence!
For all the pages of exchange I have formed an opinion: That's it.
Interesting the contrast between those with open minds and those whose religious constraints serve as conversation stoppers, as DianaT pointed out.
Ya know...thems in they resolve surely believe that what they believe is not open for any other possibilities. Blind Faith is Absolute! Period!
End of conversation! However, being human belies the Absolute and betrays their "not one of you" stance, and so they amble on, pedantically.
Hallelujah!
Try as I might, I cannot find Jesus on The BajaNomad. But I did meet a guy in Baja named Heysoos. |
Which is exactly why I remain an AGNOSTIC. 
Barry
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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Heysoos? 
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by paranewbi
Simply Illyfish we disagree. |
Indeed and I appreciate your response. Good men/women can and do disagree and this is normal and natural and is why it is dangerous for one group to
bifurcate human beings into US/Them.
I was challenging this viewpoint as a dangerous slippery slope and one mankind has slid down many, many times. Ethnocentrism is dangerous in that is
can be used to support the annihilation of other human beings by dehumanizing them as has happened through out history. One of the first steps taken
in waging war is to dehumanize the enemy, who Pogo said is us.
I appreciate your sharing so clearly your perspective on these matters and your civility in doing so. I think you have well represented a perspective
on this issue and there are a wide range of them.
I also appreciate the postings of other thoughtful people who have disagreed and challenged your views as you have challenged others perspectives.
These are very hard issues to discuss and not have the discussion devolve into some form of name calling and diatribe. I am relieved to see this
discussion in this public forum, one that I believe we have to again have as a nation if we are to climb out from under the increasingly
fundamentalist reactionary dialogue that seems to choke our public dialogue.
It is refreshing to see the postings of Diana T and vgabndo who provide us with an historical perspective on the interplay of religion and the
founding of our society. I have read the letters between Jefferson and Adams where they question "what are the real words of Jesus in the Bible" and
concluding that they were few and those that they did identify spoke of love and letting go of fear and worry. I have of course truncated their
dialogue but you might find it fascinating. I have learned from these and other postings on this thread.
Iflyfishinhopeformorecivildialogueandrespectinoursociety
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Well, Diane, that is a fair question-----------I just thought that the EVERYBODY knew of them, but then I am guilty of "assuming", a sin by my own
rantings in the past.
I do not know the answer off the top of my head, but I have seen them quoted often in e-mails and such, but I would have to research it to really give
you any cites or links. This is always a problem for me as when I am satisfied that I "know something" I ALWAYS forget the source of that info------a
huge handi-cap, for sure.
You got me, for now. 
Barry
On Edit: Well, that was easier than I thought------
Try this link:
http://religiousliberty.com/article-washington-dc-monuments....
Here is another link, tho not directly from "documents" necessarily:
http://www.shadesofgrace.org/2010/05/05/is-america-a-christi...
[Edited on 6-10-2012 by Barry A.]
[Edited on 6-10-2012 by Barry A.] |
Barry, read the first link again. Not one of the things they talk about was built during the founding of the US----some were built and influenced by
later times in the US when we were in one of the several religious revival periods, similar to today when some wanted to try and claim this is a
Christian nation---- and the quotes are NOT from the founders. This site is about religious statements made on buildings at a later time, but it is
not about the founding principles of the nation.
The second site is a typical religious revisionist history where the quotes have been edited, taken out of context and misused---a lot based on the
work of David Barton whose work has been debunked over and over. He is one of Glenn Beck's favorite people. His work, like all propaganda is full of
half truths, misquotes, and distortions. Just for starters, check out the full story about the 1782 Aitken Bible.
In so many ways I feel like the old Burnt Over District has spread over the nation, but this too shall pass. Or on second thought, maybe not since
the Burnt Over District is where Joseph Smith started his religion with a little help from the visions of Cornplanter--- OMZ --- please stop it!
[Edited on 6-10-2012 by DianaT]
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
My dogma just barked!
So now, after checking in, I am overwhelmed by the Littany that is The BajaNomad. Happy Sunday to y'all!
I truly appreciate all of the thought that has gone into this discussion. Such eloquence!
For all the pages of exchange I have formed an opinion: That's it.
Interesting the contrast between those with open minds and those whose religious constraints serve as conversation stoppers, as DianaT pointed out.
Ya know...thems in they resolve surely believe that what they believe is not open for any other possibilities. Blind Faith is Absolute! Period!
End of conversation! However, being human belies the Absolute and betrays their "not one of you" stance, and so they amble on, pedantically.
Hallelujah!
Try as I might, I cannot find Jesus on The BajaNomad. But I did meet a guy in Baja named Heysoos. |
I have met many Jesuses in Mexico and some Mary's too. most have been wonderful!
Iflyfish
Iflyfish
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
My dogma just barked!
So now, after checking in, I am overwhelmed by the Littany that is The BajaNomad. Happy Sunday to y'all!
I truly appreciate all of the thought that has gone into this discussion. Such eloquence!
For all the pages of exchange I have formed an opinion: That's it.
Interesting the contrast between those with open minds and those whose religious constraints serve as conversation stoppers, as DianaT pointed out.
Ya know...thems in they resolve surely believe that what they believe is not open for any other possibilities. Blind Faith is Absolute! Period!
End of conversation! However, being human belies the Absolute and betrays their "not one of you" stance, and so they amble on, pedantically.
Hallelujah!
Try as I might, I cannot find Jesus on The BajaNomad. But I did meet a guy in Baja named Heysoos. |
I have met many Jesuses in Mexico and some Mary's too. most have been wonderful!
Iflyfish
Iflyfish |
In Honduras many of our students were named Jesus Maria and many were named Maria Jesus ---very, very popular names! 
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
In Honduras many of our students were named Jesus Maria and many were named Maria Jesus ---very, very popular names! |
Only a name to us, but a devotion applied to the recipient in the minds of the parents.
They crossed themselves as they made their gift of naming their child, I'm sure.
How wonderful and nice.
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vgabndo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3461
Registered: 12-8-2003
Location: Mt. Shasta, CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Checking-off my bucket list.
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Rick, your use of the term "slippery slope" reminded me of this blog which comes to me every day, and this offering which may be of interest to many
in this discussion.
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/06/09/the-slippery-slope/
I found it worth reading.
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3326
Registered: 12-13-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mellow
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paranewbi I am going to post this again because you may have missed it, we both posted at about the same time. Or maybe you are not speaking to me
anymore  I am sincerely interested in your response to my request in the last
sentence:
___________________________________________
Thanks for your thoughts paranewbi. With all due respect (OMZ I love that phrase, it has so many wonderful nuances), I don't think you are saying
anything. You are simply assuming that the bible is true, and with that premise you move on to "prove" something. There is a phrase for that, "garbage
in, garbage out". The bible is true because it says it is true. Doesn't fly.
As to my understanding of the bible, my bible study didn't end with my first teenage reading more than 50 years ago. I would stack my "bible study"
library up against most trained bible scholars. I must admit that my interests have tended towards the history of the bible, which is absolutely
fascinating. It is astonishing that such a fundamentally evil book, which advocates slavery, genocide, sacrificing numerous small animals, killing
your kids for talking back to you, killing homosexuals, killing people who work on weekends, killing, killing, killing ad nauseum, has had such a
stranglehold on so many people. One thing I learned in my studies of the bible, is that there are thousands of versions in existence. I own four
copies of the "King James" version, and each is different. Some differences are substantial, others editorial. But the fact remains is that nobody
knows what the original version said, it doesn't exist. So much for "written by the creator of the universe."
Please refer me to some writings which will enlighten me on what the bible really means. I will enthusiastically pursue them.
[Edited on 6-10-2012 by Ken Bondy]
carpe diem!
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Well, Diane, that is a fair question-----------I just thought that the EVERYBODY knew of them, but then I am guilty of "assuming", a sin by my own
rantings in the past.
"I do not know the answer off the top of my head, but I have seen them quoted often in e-mails and such, but I would have to research it to really
give you any cites or links. This is always a problem for me as when I am satisfied that I "know something" I ALWAYS forget the source of that
info------a huge handi-cap, for sure.
You got me, for now.
Barry
On Edit: Well, that was easier than I thought------
Try this link:
http://religiousliberty.com/article-washington-dc-monuments....
Here is another link, tho not directly from "documents" necessarily:
http://www.shadesofgrace.org/2010/05/05/is-america-a-christi...
[Edited on 6-10-2012 by Barry A.]
[Edited on 6-10-2012 by Barry A.] |
Barry, read the first link again. Not one of the things they talk about was built during the founding of the US----some were built and influenced by
later times in the US when we were in one of the several religious revival periods, similar to today when some wanted to try and claim this is a
Christian nation---- and the quotes are NOT from the founders. This site is about religious statements made on buildings at a later time, but it is
not about the founding principles of the nation.
The second site is a typical religious revisionist history where the quotes have been edited, taken out of context and misused---a lot based on the
work of David Barton whose work has been debunked over and over. He is one of Glenn Beck's favorite people. His work, like all propaganda is full of
half truths, misquotes, and distortions. Just for starters, check out the full story about the 1782 Aitken Bible.
In so many ways I feel like the old Burnt Over District has spread over the nation, but this too shall pass. Or on second thought, maybe not since
the Burnt Over District is where Joseph Smith started his religion with a little help from the visions of Cornplanter--- OMZ --- please stop it!
[Edited on 6-10-2012 by DianaT] |
Diane-------I have no idea what the "1782 Aitken Bible" is, and have no idea what you are talking about in the last paragraph, and I have never
studied Religion (frankly, it never occurred to me to do that).
This conversation reminds me of why I NEVER have any Religious conversations with my two kids ages 52 and 48, both of which are 'born-again
Christians', both very happy, both very successful, both pretty educated (one a highschool teacher/CPA, and the other a Lawyer) and their "beliefs"
and " faith" is something I would not dream of messing with-------I never mess with success and happness in others as it is too precious!!!
Again, my personal experience trumps the so-called wisdom of others.
I choose to believe this is a God-oriented Country based on everything I see and read, not-with-standing the doubters who wish to tarnish or destroy
that "belief" for reasons only they can attempt to explain. Either way, it's just not that important to me.
Carry on.
Barry
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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5901
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
paranewbi I am going to post this again because you may have missed it, we both posted at about the same time. Or maybe you are not speaking to me
anymore I am sincerely interested in your response to my request in the last
sentence:
___________________________________________
Thanks for your thoughts paranewbi. With all due respect (OMZ I love that phrase, it has so many wonderful nuances), I don't think you are saying
anything. You are simply assuming that the bible is true, and with that premise you move on to "prove" something. There is a phrase for that, "garbage
in, garbage out". The bible is true because it says it is true. Doesn't fly.
As to my understanding of the bible, my bible study didn't end with my first teenage reading more than 50 years ago. I would stack my "bible study"
library up against most trained bible scholars. I must admit that my interests have tended towards the history of the bible, which is absolutely
fascinating. It is astonishing that such a fundamentally evil book, which advocates slavery, genocide, sacrificing numerous small animals, killing
your kids for talking back to you, killing homosexuals, killing people who work on weekends, killing, killing, killing ad nauseum, has had such a
stranglehold on so many people. One thing I learned in my studies of the bible, is that there are thousands of versions in existence. I own four
copies of the "King James" version, and each is different. Some differences are substantial, others editorial. But the fact remains is that nobody
knows what the original version said, it doesn't exist. So much for "written by the creator of the universe."
Please refer me to some writings which will enlighten me on what the bible really means. I will enthusiastically pursue them.
[Edited on 6-10-2012 by Ken Bondy] |
Pretty sure he'll refer you to Lee Strobel, or some other apologist, like he did to me.
And Ken, come on -- that bad stuff is the OLD Testament. 
When god sent himself back to earth as Jesus to die for our sins, all that negative old testament stuff got thrown out the window. God corrected his
previous mistakes.....
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ateo
When god sent himself back to earth as Jesus to die for our sins, all that negative old testament stuff got thrown out the window. God corrected his
previous mistakes..... |
What is "Original Sin?"
They say I was born with sins on my soul.
Wassup with that? I didn't do anything.
.
[Edited on 6-10-2012 by DENNIS]
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Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3326
Registered: 12-13-2002
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Mood: Mellow
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ateo
When god sent himself back to earth as Jesus to die for our sins, all that negative old testament stuff got thrown out the window. God corrected his
previous mistakes..... |
Not really ateo. Jesus said that every word of that nasty old testament stuff
must be observed until the end of the world (Matthew 5:18). Christians like to dance around that but it's right there in the bible so it must be
true.
carpe diem!
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Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3326
Registered: 12-13-2002
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Mood: Mellow
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
What is "Original Sin?"
[Edited on 6-10-2012 by DENNIS] |
Second only to the concept of "hell" as the most evil, immoral idea ever forced by christianity on the human race.
carpe diem!
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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5901
Registered: 7-18-2011
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by ateo
When god sent himself back to earth as Jesus to die for our sins, all that negative old testament stuff got thrown out the window. God corrected his
previous mistakes..... |
Not really ateo. Jesus said that every word of that nasty old testament stuff
must be observed until the end of the world (Matthew 5:18). Christians like to dance around that but it's right there in the bible so it must be
true. |
Yep, you ARE correct!!! I usually pull that one out right after I hear the "that's the old testament" statement......
and don't forget the verse before Matthew 5:18 -
Matthew 5:17...
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
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willardguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6451
Registered: 9-19-2009
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stephen hawkings "the grand design" made perfect sense to me. 
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
What is "Original Sin?"
[Edited on 6-10-2012 by DENNIS] |
Second only to the concept of "hell" as the most evil, immoral idea ever forced by christianity on the human race. |
"------forced by Christianity on the human race"?????????? Really????? Were you "forced", Ken???? I am sure that this has happened if you say so,
but I must admit I have never personally seen any examples of it happening-------just these reports by some, and lots of allegations. If you were
actually "forced" I can now sorta understand your animosity towards the organized aspects of Religion--------but not your feelings towards the
faithful who number in the millions. Much of what you have written in this thread is so far from the "Ken Bondy" that I have long read on this Board
that I am truly amazed!!!!
"forced" is truly a strong accusation--------I served in the Church as an Accolite in my youth, but certainly was never "forced" to believe anything,
and soon left the Church as not relevant to my life. There were never any repercussions for that decision, from anybody.
Barry
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paranewbi
Senior Nomad
Posts: 913
Registered: 4-15-2011
Location: San diego
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Ken I reviewed my 13 bibles including the KJV, NKJV, 21st Century KJV, and 10 others and in no version do I find the words "until the end of the
world". A check of Stongs does not include in the greek a translation for 'end of the world' in the original greek. I also reviewed several scholastic
books on the Sermon on the Mount and did not see that referance.
What I have found is 'until all is finished', '...accomplished', '...fullfilled', all of them fitting in the current teaching of addressing Jesus'
further declarations that only he can fullfill the love of sacrificing himself for attonement of man. This is well known as having occured at the
cross and the splitting of the vale that covered the Holy of Holy's in the temple. According to the Bible this gave man access to a relationship
through Jesus which was lost at man's behest when he took on the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden.
This as I state here is the circle of context that is derived from the total Bible in both a near and far analysis of further text in the Bible where
this issue is addressed.
You may be citing the further text that addresses those who refuse reconciliation to God that was made possible on the Cross and in that context are
still under the judgement of the law(s)...even if you think of murder, than you have murdered, etc...
Of course I do not share your view on the terribleness of the Old Testament and expect that you do not share my view of the above.
But to Ateo, I do agree with you in part where you say 'got thrown out the window' although not as pertaining to any 'mistake' by God. I feel a loving
God gave man the opportunity to choose just what he (man) desired.
Some have a problem with my declaration of 'not one of you' and knowing the Bible as some here do, those should be able to validate the multiple
citations of the directive that followers of Christ are not to be of this world, commune with the unbelieving, drawn into the temptations of....
Once again in the pursuit of presenting myself as consistent in my beliefs and with my declarations of following the Word of God of the Bible, surely
you would not expect me to state anything else. It does not mean I don't have compassion for non-believers and as those who know me would attest to, I
would be first to help anyone in need as I do daily.
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bufeo
Senior Nomad
Posts: 793
Registered: 11-16-2003
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS...What is "Original Sin?"
They say I was born with sins on my soul.
Wassup with that? I didn't do anything... |
I was so indoctrinated that on my first day at school (1943) when the teacher asked me what state I was born is, I replied, "I was born in the state
of sin and misery."
Allen R
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