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Ateo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
"forced" is truly a strong accusation--------I served in the Church as an Accolite in my youth, but certainly was never "forced" to believe anything,
and soon left the Church as not relevant to my life. There were never any repercussions for that decision, from anybody.
Barry |
I believe the Native Americans would be a good example of beliefs being forced upon a group of people. Not sure if the whole "Original Sin" thing was
around at that time or had yet to be invented, but there was definitely some forcing going on, forcing that ended in deaths of thousands.
Nowadays, religion in the Western world has been neutered so it no longer has the power to force beliefs, which is a step in the right direction.
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bufeo
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by paranewbi.... It does not mean I don't have compassion for non-believers and as those who know me would attest to, I
would be first to help anyone in need as I do daily. |
I know that you directed this to Ken, but I, too, have that same compassion for you believers.
Allen R
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bufeo
| Quote: | | Originally posted by paranewbi.... It does not mean I don't have compassion for non-believers and as those who know me would attest to, I
would be first to help anyone in need as I do daily. |
I know that you directed this to Ken, but I, too, have that same compassion for you believers.
Allen R |
NOW we are gettin somewhere---------compassion from both sides---------that's good. 
Barry
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Ateo
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I will also jump on the compassion bandwagon. Beliefs are deeply ingrained and while discussing them it's important to try and understand the other
persons perspective and thought process. A book I read recently sheds a ton of light on the topic of belief and how we come to those beliefs. We're
barely even conscious of the process...........kind of crazy.
The Believing Brain by Michael Shermer.
I strongly recommend it. Cut and Past from a website:
Shermer shows how dependent our beliefs are on a multitude of subjective, personal, emotional and psychological factors; how belief systems are
“formed, nourished, reinforced, changed and extinguished”; how belief systems operate ”with regard to belief in religion, the afterlife, God,
extraterrestrial, conspiracies, politics, economics and ideologies”;
And finally how we know which beliefs are true and which are false.
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
What is "Original Sin?"
[Edited on 6-10-2012 by DENNIS] |
Second only to the concept of "hell" as the most evil, immoral idea ever forced by christianity on the human race. |
"------forced by Christianity on the human race"?????????? Really????? Were you "forced", Ken???? I am sure that this has happened if you say so,
but I must admit I have never personally seen any examples of it happening-------just these reports by some, and lots of allegations. If you were
actually "forced" I can now sorta understand your animosity towards the organized aspects of Religion--------but not your feelings towards the
faithful who number in the millions. Much of what you have written in this thread is so far from the "Ken Bondy" that I have long read on this Board
that I am truly amazed!!!!
"forced" is truly a strong accusation--------I served in the Church as an Accolite in my youth, but certainly was never "forced" to believe anything,
and soon left the Church as not relevant to my life. There were never any repercussions for that decision, from anybody.
Barry |
Barry the concepts of hell and original sin have been forced by christianity on millions of innocent children for centuries. It's a form of child
abuse and has done irreparable harm.
carpe diem!
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Barry A.
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OK, Ken----I will take your word for it. I personally have NEVER seen any of it, tho I have read about it, but always had my doubts-------as I often
do about the written and stated 'word'. So many Agenda's out there, even way back when.
Barry
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paranewbi
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'Barry the concepts of hell and original sin have been forced by christianity on millions of innocent children for centuries. It's a form of child
abuse and has done irreparable harm'
You stand corrected Barry, Ken has discounted your experiance. :0
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by paranewbi
Ken I reviewed my 13 bibles including the KJV, NKJV, 21st Century KJV, and 10 others and in no version do I find the words "until the end of the
world". A check of Stongs does not include in the greek a translation for 'end of the world' in the original greek. I also reviewed several scholastic
books on the Sermon on the Mount and did not see that referance.
What I have found is 'until all is finished', '...accomplished', '...fullfilled', all of them fitting in the current teaching of addressing Jesus'
further declarations that only he can fullfill the love of sacrificing himself for attonement of man. This is well known as having occured at the
cross and the splitting of the vale that covered the Holy of Holy's in the temple. According to the Bible this gave man access to a relationship
through Jesus which was lost at man's behest when he took on the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden.
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OK paranewbi ya got me. I was paraphrasing. I might have to go to confession. I checked my four bibles and in Matthew 5:18 one says "...until all
is fulfilled...", two say "...until all be fulfilled..." and one, TNAB, says "...until all things have taken place...". Are you seriously trying to
say that those are NOT synonyms for "..until the end of the world..."??
That also detracts from the point, which was that jesus never refuted a single word of the old testament, including slavery, and here in Matthew he
emphasizes that everything in the old testament must be observed.
carpe diem!
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Ateo
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Ok. Now can anyone explain to me why this thread is titled To Doug"?
What's with the " ??
Before starting a thread that'll be seen by 7000 people, try and check your title first.
[Edited on 6-11-2012 by ateo]
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paranewbi
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Ken, Jesus did many things and as John acknowledged the recounting of them would fill many volumes. Yes I am serious when we need to have accuracy in
our dialogue.
And no, if you return to the Greek or other texts of the Bible of which there were hundreds within the first century after Christs' rising, as well as
common languages...none of the citations both you and I have validated, are synonymous with 'until the end of the world' and as I have stated does not
fit in with the near or the far context of all associated scripture.
You have made some broad statements validated only by your assurances in another post of the damage done by the forcing children to heed to their
parents teaching, yet have cited not authority other than you own to declare it to be truth...yet you protest other's who offer their experiance and
observances and sometimes quote correctly their sources.
Not to turn this thread but to counter your broad unauthoritative statement:
I would offer that the nearly 70 million babies who have been sucked out of the womb with no choice has done much more damage to our children in this
country. And you can google that statistic...as well as the reported 813,000 abortions cited on the CDC site for the year 2003 alone. That is a fact
of harm.
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
OK, Ken----I will take your word for it. I personally have NEVER seen any of it, tho I have read about it, but always had my doubts-------as I often
do about the written and stated 'word'. So many Agenda's out there, even way back when.
Barry |
Barry it was forced on me, by my parents, when I was a kid. I was told I was born a "sinner" and if I didn't believe, without evidence, in an unseen
person named jesus, who died 2000 years ago to forgive my sins (but didn't really die, i didn't really get that), my loving god would send me to a
place called "hell" where I would be tortured by fire forever. But he does love me. This was all extremely stressful and I didn't fully recover from
that until I began to seriously examine religion as a teenager, including a thorough reading of the bible, and came to realize that religion was just
a massive scam.
I don't know what to say about expressing my opinions about religion. I'm sorry to shock you. In the ten years I've been a Nomad I have, in fact,
taken the bait on religion a few times and I guess you missed those. My primary interest in the Nomad board is the love of Baja (I live vicariously
here) and photography. Nonetheless I think I have a right to express my opinion on any subject being discussed. Considering how dangerous religion
is, I believe it should be criticized at every opportunity.
carpe diem!
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by paranewbi
Not to turn this thread but to counter your broad unauthoritative statement:
I would offer that the nearly 70 million babies who have been sucked out of the womb with no choice has done much more damage to our children in this
country. And you can google that statistic...as well as the reported 813,000 abortions cited on the CDC site for the year 2003 alone. That is a fact
of harm. |
paranewbi I am not going to take your bait on abortion, except to say that I find it curious that religious people seem to have much more concern for
the life of a 150-cell blastocyst with no nervous system, than they do for the life of a fully developed human being, as in, for example, an abortion
doctor.
Sam Harris, in "The End of Faith", points out the very large number of early fetuses that are aborted naturally, often without the knowledge of the
mother. Thus god, if he/she exists, is the greatest abortionist of all.
carpe diem!
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by paranewbi
Jesus did many things |
How many things did Jesus do? Did he verifiably work? What does anybody, even today, in the Middle East do? Seems like all they do is wander around
in those stupid robes or ride around in pickups throwing rocks at one thing or another.
What do Greeks do? Why is their unemployment rate affecting the world? Is there a shortage of OUZO and METAXA? I don't think so.
What do the Spaniards do? What do they contribute to the world? Why are they causing the price of gas to rise?
My world has turned to nonsense.
Skeet....help.
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Lee
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
My world has turned to nonsense.
Skeet....help. |
Too late. Skeet can't help. Told you this would happen.
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DENNIS
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I should have listened to you, Lee. Maybe next time, amigo.
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mulegemichael
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skeet has already helped...and right now he's helping more..at least to me...thanks skeet, for not commenting.
dyslexia is never having to say you\'re yrros.
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Debra
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Wow! How ironic. Skeeter started this with a good-by and may have (I hope not) missed a really great discussion!
I was really impressed that this thread could keep a great dialog going ( for the most part, I almost stopped reading it a couple of times) without
breaking down into name calling and angry nonsence that sometimes happens. I hate to sound maternal, but, GOOD JOB NOMADS!
I'm with (I think it was Barry A.) and will keep my opions to myself, but, I have to say, though I don't agree with everything said, I did enjoy
reading this thoughful exchange, Thanks!
And in defence of Skeeter, I have exchanged (over many years) U2s and emails with him and he is a really great person at heart, he sometimes goes
abit overboard on the board and is (IMHO) misunderstood at times with somethings he says in the heat of the moment. I as a rule don't go to OT, so I
can't comment on anything that might be said there.
Mean people suck!
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paranewbi
Senior Nomad
Posts: 913
Registered: 4-15-2011
Location: San diego
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| Quote: | Originally posted by paranewbi
Ken, Jesus did many things and as John acknowledged the recounting of them would fill many volumes. Yes I am serious when we need to have accuracy in
our dialogue.
And no, if you return to the Greek or other texts of the Bible of which there were hundreds within the first century after Christs' rising, as well as
common languages...none of the citations both you and I have validated, are synonymous with 'until the end of the world' and as I have stated does not
fit in with the near or the far context of all associated scripture.
You have made some broad statements validated only by your assurances in another post of the damage done by the forcing children to heed to their
parents teaching, yet have cited not authority other than you own to declare it to be truth...yet you protest other's who offer their experiance and
observances and sometimes quote correctly their sources.
Not to turn this thread but to counter your broad unauthoritative statement:
I would offer that the nearly 70 million babies who have been sucked out of the womb with no choice has done much more damage to our children in this
country. And you can google that statistic...as well as the reported 813,000 abortions cited on the CDC site for the year 2003 alone. That is a fact
of harm. |
As my last offering and with sympathy to all of those fellow Nomads who have patiently waded through all of these postings:
Ken; You need not respond to my citation of facts and authority they were derived from. That was merely an exercise in responding to your unfounded
statements as pointed out above. I don't say this with glee or frothing at the mouth, it is a pointing out of the necessity when engaging in
discussions that are in response to stated hatred for what some feel is a valid document, there must be a foundation laid for every accusation.
You did later relate an accounting of your experience and from where you have drawn your conclusions and I will not dispute the validity of that
experience as it is your own. But to extrapolate that experience into a broad generalization (which was countered by another Nomad) and count that
generalization as fact is harmful. There can be no counter to self proclaimed statements that in themselves find validity.
I have only responded, in hopefully a scholarly way, with corrections you have acquiesced to, and citations of the material you admittedly misquoted.
A paraphrased quote based on a declared synonym relation is no quote at all. It was necessary to correct that in a clinical manner to not mislead
those who would read this and be led to accept it as true.
The posting above of mine that pointed out another false argument of yours (generalization) was finished with another commentary on your declaration
of what has harmed our children. It was merely an illustration of using factual material to bolster a counter to your claim. Other than to declare
my belief in a document supporting the existence of God, I have tried hard to keep this from a personal, tit for tat, in order to have an opportunity
to share some insight often maligned by the induction of personal (and perhaps emotional) declarations.
I have not spiritualized my statements in order to avoid the emotional and self supporting validity that imposes. I felt the requirement here was to
approach this intellectually as I sensed there was great emotion involved in dealing with a stated hatred. If we start at hatred we end at hatred.
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Ken Bondy
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paranewbi
"...your unfounded statements..."?????? Wow, what a spectacular example of the pot calling the kettle black. Your entire argument is circular,
totally based on your unfounded allegation that the bible is true (solely because it says it is), yet you call my statements "unfounded"???
And if all you've got is a nitpicking argument that "until the end of the world" is not synonomous with "until all things have taken place" or "until
all is fulfilled", well, you just don't have much ammunition. Have you noticed that there are even significant variations from bible to bible in this
verse? Is the bible misquoting itself?
Plus you conveniently ignore the main point of that discussion, that jesus never reputed, refuted, or disagreed with anything in the old testament,
including slavery. To the contrary, he says every word must be observed.
Of course my personal childhood experience about having "original sin" and "hell" forced on me can be extrapolated to children in general. Come on,
paranewbi, that's just common sense. Do you really think it's a good thing to tell a small child that he/she will be barbequed in some horrible place
if he/she doesn't believe in some imaginary person? That's simply child abuse.
I don't understand much of your last post "I have not spiritualized my statements" (what the hell does that mean???), but I would like to know more
specifically which of MY statements were "unfounded". You seem to feel that your circular arguments (the bible is true because it says it is true)
should stand unchallenged, but when I offer an opinion based upon specific citations from your bible, or other opinions based on my own personal
experience or simply common sense, they are unfounded??
Even though I could not possibly disagree with you more, I appreciate that you have kept the dialogue civil. You do a better job than most religious
apologists.
[Edited on 6-11-2012 by Ken Bondy]
carpe diem!
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by SFandH
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Plus you conveniently ignore the main point of that discussion, that jesus never reputed, refuted, or disagreed with anything in the old testament,
including slavery. To the contrary, he says every word must be observed.
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Interesting point. For the sake of discussion, let's assume Jesus the man existed.
What was available to read 2000 years ago? How many people of the carpenter variety could read 2000 years ago? If the Old Testament was available
(Dead Sea scrolls?), how does it differ from the Bible of today? Did the local Jewish scholars read the scrolls? Did Jesus listen to what the scholars
had to say?
[Edited on 6-11-2012 by SFandH] |
Not much SFandH. Very few people were literate 2000 years ago. People thought the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, and nobody knew
about the germ theory of disease. As the early christian religion was spread through the Middle East, the bible was copied manually from place to
place by "scribes", people in the local area who could read and write. These scribes made errors in their copies of the bible, intentional and
unintentional. That's why there have been literally thousands of different versions of the bible. Since the original version of the document does
not exist, no one knows what it says. So much for the bible being written by the creator of the universe. Bart Ehrman's book "Misquoting Jesus"
addresses this in fascinating detail.
carpe diem!
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