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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
So much for the bible being written by the creator of the universe. Bart Ehrman's book "Misquoting Jesus" addresses this in fascinating detail.
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In all of my years, including seven of which were spent in a Catholic school, I never heard that God wrote the bible. Inspired it...yes. Wrote
it...no.
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SFandH
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Yes, the literalists are the most ___________ (I can't think of the correct word) of all believers. But, in making your argument, you were being a
literalist.
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
So much for the bible being written by the creator of the universe. Bart Ehrman's book "Misquoting Jesus" addresses this in fascinating detail.
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In all of my years, including seven of which were spent in a Catholic school, I never heard that God wrote the bible. Inspired it...yes. Wrote
it...no. |
I've often heard it both ways DENNIS, "written" and "inspired". Those who have noticed all the errors and contradictions in the bible tend to say
"inspired", those who think it is inerrant tend to say "written". But does that REALLY change my point about the existence of thousands of different
versions of the bible over the centuries??
carpe diem!
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
But does that REALLY change my point about the existence of thousands of different versions of the bible over the centuries?? |
I'm sure not. Even within the Catholic Church, they have periodic Ecuminical Counsels to bring the Church along with the times.....something
Fundamentalist Islam will never consider. That's why they wither away in the stone ages.
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
But does that REALLY change my point about the existence of thousands of different versions of the bible over the centuries?? |
I'm sure not. Even within the Catholic Church, they have periodic Ecuminical Counsels to bring the Church along with the times.....something
Fundamentalist Islam will never consider. That's why they wither away in the stone ages. |
They might be "withering away in the stone age", but as they gain access to nuclear weapons I think they will become more noticeable.
carpe diem!
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
But does that REALLY change my point about the existence of thousands of different versions of the bible over the centuries?? |
I'm sure not. Even within the Catholic Church, they have periodic Ecuminical Counsels to bring the Church along with the times.....something
Fundamentalist Islam will never consider. That's why they wither away in the stone ages. |
They might be "withering away in the stone age", but as they gain access to nuclear weapons I think they will become more noticeable.
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Either that, or more likely they will screw-up and blow themselves up!?!?!?!?!?
Barry
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paranewbi
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It's ok Ken. I don't require a response any longer. I would say that I did find the need to refute some of what you have said and that is only why I
jumped in here. Failure to do so leads others to perhaps mistakenly accept what you advocate, much like your offering of Bart Erhman's book which has
been disputed by some scholars who have shown without Biblical intervention, and only applying the methods used by secular historical researchers
(which Erhman ignores), the fallacious arguments Bart uses to sale his book, although you would not be interested in reading them because of their
'apologists' label they are given.
I do find quizzical your passionate stance and war against something, which in your view seems to not exist (God) or perhaps in not the way you like.
Why bother if the God of the Bible does not exist? And if you simply do not wish to follow a God you acknowledge exist because of his cruelty, and
chose to war against that God, I would take care to not poke him with a stick.
As for me, yes I do exactly believe in the existence of the God of the Bible…that must be very clear. I have not forced my view on anyone and I feel
I have done well in explaining my beliefs. Whether that is accepted, really has no bearing on calling someone out when they have stated wrongly, a
subject I can clarify and feel just as passionately about as you do.
For others who wish to pursue an in depth study of the counter arguments, I did offer Lee Strobel because of his entertaining way of drawing the
reader into a subject of research he conducted because he felt much as Ken does. He does offer scholarly material to refute most of what has been
posted here that concerns the historical evidence for the existence of Jesus and declared errors/contradictions, as well as other readings that might
be hard for the average person to stay awake through, much as I struggled myself with.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Either that, or more likely they will screw-up and blow themselves up!?!?!?!?!?
Barry |
We can only hope. Some will pray as well. 
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Iflyfish
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Ken states "Do you really think it's a good thing to tell a small child that he/she will be barbequed in some horrible place if he/she doesn't believe
in some imaginary person?"
Or actually BBQ people? Who gave us the burning of the Gnostics? Who gave us the Crusades? Who gave us the Inquisition? Who gave us the witch
burnings? Who gave us the Conquest of Mexico and Latin America and it's "Mission System" where native people were enslaved, blessed by priests, and
then executed.
Much evil has been done in the name of religion and still is being done. Good has also been and is being done in the name of religion. Millions of
lives have been lost over the centuries in the name of religion, by true believers, who operated and operate with a sense of impunity because they
cherry pick and take literally their "sacred text". I personally am afraid of any "true believer" as their minds are not open and they can easily
divide the world into them/us, saved/unsaved, shia/sunni, catholic/protestant, good/bad etc. The most rigid of the "true believers" are the most
dangerous. There is no negotiating with a true believer of any stripe, its us vs. them and woe to those who are them when these true believers hold
power.
Religion is imposed upon the young by their parents and then the child has to somehow deal with that which they are given to deal with. Some are given
constraining, judgmental, cruel and abusive exposure to religion. Some are exposed in a more benign way and actually benefit from their exposure.
My early experience in church taught me about philosophy, art, music, hypocrisy, kindness, gossip, guilt and belonging in addition to what a tuna
casserole is (I went for the potato chips). I went to a Prep School and studied Theology, studied the classics, had PhD professors for my high school
classes and learned how to organize my thoughts and how to study. I learned music composition and art/music appreciation and took classes in the same.
I learned Latin which was very useful in my work in the medical field. I also learned that there are pedophiles in the midst of the clergy. I learned
that people have argued over centuries how many angels would fit on the head of a pin. I learned that a single person, Luther, could turn over the
world by challenging authority and orthodoxy and that each person had the responsibility to challenge the orthodoxy of their time and to sort out
their own relationship to the god they understood. I also learned that the Protestant Reformation created a great deal of destruction along with its
liberation from orthodoxy. I also learned that great religious ideas get codified and then institutionalized into a new orthodoxy and that the
institutions that develop around those codifications become profit centers.
I treated a woman over a couple of years. She was abandoned by her adoptive Missionary parents to a spinster woman from the church while they went off
to save the "heathens in Africa". The woman who was left in her charge was cruel and sadistic and started to inflict severe physical punishment and
torture when she hit puberty. At the end of her therapy she told me that she had been told of the love of god, in this case Jesus, nearly every day
for her entire life but never knew what that meant till she experienced love in the context of our therapeutic relationship. There is a lot to ponder
in her very compelling story. She actually gained a sense of peace and resolution and again started to go to church.
In another case I diagnosed a Catholic, the guilt was not only on the alter, she went on and on about her agonizing guilt and I said "your a Catholic,
right?" and she recoiled like I had shot her. She in that instant put together what might have taken years to unwind. I am not claiming any virtue in
recounting this, only describing the power that religious hypnotism can have on people and how that spell can be broken and another reality emerge. I
did not treat her for a prolonged time, that insight was enough to start her personal liberation from guilt.
Again, I don't think that we can separate our theology from our individual history and psychology. I think we can see this in the histories that
people have been kind enough to share with us here in this thread. Some of us are given larger bags of rocks to carry with us through life. Sometimes
rocks can also be useful. Depends doesn't it?
Iflyfish
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woody with a view
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WOW! ^^^^^^Post of the day^^^^^^
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Pompano
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Ahoy Skeet! Are you still around?
Say...would you mind changing the title of this thread?
From: "To Doug"
To: "To God"
Just saying...you might agree with the idea. 
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by paranewbi
I do find quizzical your passionate stance and war against something, which in your view seems to not exist (God) or perhaps in not the way you like.
Why bother if the God of the Bible does not exist? And if you simply do not wish to follow a God you acknowledge exist because of his cruelty, and
chose to war against that God, I would take care to not poke him with a stick. |
paranewbi (do you have a real name? That is tedious to type)
My "passionate stance" isn't so much a war against a non-existent god. Rather it is a recognition of how dangerous all religions are. I believe
religion must be criticized at every opportunity. I apologize if some of the following explanation is repeated from previous posts.
If religion didn’t have any effect on the real world, I wouldn’t care what silly nonsense you believed in. It’s all imaginary, but if you want to
fall for a scam like religion, knock yourself out. But religion does in fact affect the real world; it has an amazing stranglehold on people. It is
the single most dangerous thing in the world today. When large groups of people believe fervently in different supernatural philosophies, all
incompatible and each without a shred of evidence; and when each different philosophy requires, through its magic “holy” books, that believers in a
different supernatural philosophy must be killed, the future of civilization is at risk. Killing non-believers has largely gone out of fashion in the
more developed Western world, but in other parts of the world, where believers are told they will be lavishly rewarded in some imaginary afterlife for
such killing, it is still very popular.
I have been an atheist since I was a teenager. I decided that religion was a scam when I started seriously examining it as a kid. The silly
supernatural stories just didn’t make sense. People told me that I was born a sinner (an unimaginably evil concept), however a person named jesus
died to forgive all my prenatal sins. Yet at the same time they told me that this jesus person didn’t really die. It was all very puzzling. I also
wondered why the creator of the universe needed so much “worship”. If he/she existed, he/she seemed awfully insecure. I thought that a god who
offered not a shred of evidence for his/her existence, yet who would barbecue me for eternity just for not believing in him/her, regardless of what
other good things I did in my life, was too cruel and immoral to be real.
The major turning point in my path towards atheism, however, came when I actually sat down and read the bible, cover to cover, discovering that it was
a vicious, evil and repulsive book, full of genocide and slaughter, telling me that I should keep slaves, kill anyone who works on weekends, kill
anyone who believes in some other imaginary god, and that virgin women who are raped must marry their rapist (I’m not kidding, it’s in Deuteronomy
22:28-29). I was astonished to read that the creator of the universe got peeed at humanity (which he/she allegedly created in the first place), and
killed everyone (except one breeding pair from each species) in a great flood, including innocent children. Religious people thought all that really
happened, and that somehow it was aall good thing. I started to wonder if all the people who had been telling me how great the bible was had ever
actually read it.
So I became a lifelong atheist, but I was not an evangelistic atheist. Now I have come to realize how dangerous religion really is, and how its
existence does in fact affect you, me, and everyone else on the planet. It is time that religion is openly criticized and held to the same standards
of rationality as is every other aspect of human existence. The historical prohibition of criticizing religion must end. Only when the absurdity of
religion is exposed will it begin to lose its stranglehold on so many people.
Religion now poses the single greatest threat to the future of life on earth. It wasn’t always that way. Truly religious people have been killing
each other in the name of imaginary gods for millennia, even before the organized killings of the Crusades and the Inquisition. But in the past they
have killed on a relatively limited, finite basis using the contemporary tools available (swords, spears, burning at stakes, hangings, aggressive
torture, lions, and more recently, flying airplanes into buildings.) In the early times, and up to the first part of the 20th century, infectious
diseases such as plagues, cholera, smallpox, malaria and typhus actually posed more of a threat to the survival of human life than did religion. But
the balance of power has changed. Science has largely controlled the spread of infectious disease, and they now present much less of a threat to
society than they did in previous centuries. On the other hand, religious people now have access to nuclear weapons, and those weapons can be used to
kill on a scale unimaginable in human history. It is entirely feasible that nuclear weapons, used in the hands of the truly religious, will end all
life on earth.
I hope this will help you to better understand my "passionate stance" paranewbi. Perhaps this quotation by J. Anderson Thomson, Jr., MD, from "Why We
Believe in God(s)" will add further clarity:
"Anything we can do, no matter how small, to loosen fundamentalist religion's grasp on humanity strikes a blow for civilization and boosts the chances
for a truly global society - and perhaps even for our species' long-term survival"
carpe diem!
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Barry A.
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Ken---------Even as an Agnostic, I fear for what might replace "religion" in our world. There is an obvious "need" for something. (tho I don't
understand that)
I hope your quest for change brings about something better.
Barry
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SFandH
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Iflyfish, or anybody else,
Is the belief in the supernatural a key ingredient of 12 step programs used to overcome addictions? If so, how does it help?
[Edited on 6-11-2012 by SFandH]
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woody with a view
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i gave up on religion when i finished 6th grade (maybe earlier!) in catholic school. if i need something to believe in, well, i believe i'll have
another beer....
Ken is right. why do people have to beat themselves up in the hopes that they'll be forgiven? just live your life and treat people right. nobody is
perfect (tho i'm pretty close, just ask me!)......
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
I have been an atheist since I was a teenager. I decided that religion was a scam when I started seriously examining it as a kid. The silly
supernatural stories just didn’t make sense. |
It's not for everybody, Ken. Some people have a serious need to believe and their beliefs are an important part of their life.
I don't buy into the far-fetched mumbo Jumbo either and because of that, I hit my period of skepticism at a young age....never to overcome that. [I
didn't try, really]
I do have to say this.....a person who lives a life guided by the good tenets of a religion will have an advantage over one who has to sort it out in
this day and age.
What, for instance, would "Honesty" mean to a person who only has for a guide the daily life around us? Virtue is a learned quality and religion can
be a good teacher.
Again....it's not for everybody and everybody can take it or leave it. At least, that's the way it is in our society.
In one more hour, I'll begin my daily devotions at Our Lady of Sharky's and I'll toss back a couple to the salvation of all Nomad souls. 
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[Edited on 6-11-2012 by DENNIS]
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BajaGringo
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Always a difficult subject to comment on in open forums but since I logged on and caught up with a thread (that I thought was about skeeter saying
goodbye) that morphed into something that deeply interests me, I will add my dos centavos. I agree with Shari and others who have expressed their
gratitude that such a topic could remain fairly civil and in that light I will post my own feelings. I do so not to sway any here one way or another
but to simply express my own heartfelt beliefs.
I was raised in "organized religion" and attended religious schools through most of high school. At some point in time I began to question my faith,
mainly as an extrapolation of questions I had of religion, some of those same questions well stated by many here in this thread. At some point I
abandoned my religion. I self-interpreted that as my own questioning as to the very existence of God.
But then a funny thing happened and which runs contrary to the arguments used by some here who question God's existence. It was my education in
science - specifically nuclear physics that brought me back. There is an order to everything in this universe and I cannot explain it any other way
than by intelligent design. I accept the big bang theory as to the origins of this universe in which we exist but that does not explain away the
creation of the highly dense mass of energy that existed just moments before the big bang event. Where did that come from? It is impossible for me to
believe or accept that anything else than intelligent design was at work at that singularity.
I am not a religious man. In fact I challenge any of those here who claim to be religious to find the word religion in the Bible. It doesn't exist.
Religion was of mans creation, not God's. And man has managed to screw that up quite well on his own throughout time. To find fault with religion and
equate that with finding fault with God however, is a mistake IMHO.
Did God write the Bible? I doubt it but I do believe that it is the inspired word of God, written by man and edited throughout the centuries by
religions. As I came to understand how the Bible was put together and the process they used to include/eliminate texts, my belief in that regard was
only reenforced. That's why we don't often hear about the gospel of Saint Thomas.
Today, I believe in God with all my heart and soul. After what Cristina and I went through last year, that belief today is only stronger. One doctor
wanted to pronounce me dead and Cristina actually died on the operating table when her heart stopped. I came through that experience with a revelation
that is very personal and I would consider sharing with anyone here in person, should the opportunity present itself. My belief in God however, is not
filtered through any specific religion.
For those of you who choose not to believe, I respect that. I once walked in your shoes...
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Iflyfish
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Ken---------Even as an Agnostic, I fear for what might replace "religion" in our world. There is an obvious "need" for something. (tho I don't
understand that)
I hope your quest for change brings about something better.
Barry |
One would hope, as I gather that Ken does, that "religion" could be replaced with reason, compassion and understanding, all noble goals and qualities
evident in human beings and to be found in believers and non believers alike.
I believe that the values codified in religious doctrine human values and will continue to exist even if you eliminate religion.
I think John Lennon said it well.
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace
You, you may say
I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRhq-yO1KN8
Iflyfish
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paranewbi
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Hmmmm....Pol Pot, Stalin, Maio, Hitler (really does anybody on this board think we fought someone other than evil?...not Christian).
Another falacious argument of religions horrible suffering cast on mankind that I need to counter. The above men caused or directly influenced the
demise of 10's of millions (some say 60 million collectively) with their 'contemporary tools' in a short span of 60 some years.
It would all just be blissfull on earth if we just stopped believing in any thing other than man.
Better yet, without evil men, maybe there would be no God!
But than who amongst us has not shamed themselves in their actions or their thoughts...oops we are them.
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woody with a view
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and with that we can close this thread.....
P.S. glad you made it, God or no.
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