Originally posted by BajaGringo
Today, I believe in God with all my heart and soul. After what Cristina and I went through last year, that belief today is only stronger.
Hi Ron
Thank you for your intelligent, thoughtful post. You raise an issue that has confounded me for years, and perhaps you can shed some light on it.
In the aftermath of horrible experiences like you and Cristina went through last year, and after virtually every natural disaster (flood, fire,
tornado, hurricane, earthquake, etc.), someone always seems to state, as you did, with all sincerity and gratitude, the fact that he/she was spared
has somehow strengthened their belief in god (“…god was looking out for me…there is a god”, something like that). That is stated in spite of the fact
that god in its mercy allowed the horrible event to happen in the first place, suggesting that god, if it exists, is either impotent or evil, rather
than loving and caring. If god allows a horrible thing to occur in the first place, why would he/she/it give a damn who survived and who didn’t?
Perhaps you could shed some light on this, since you went through it. It seems to me that when a terrible thing happens to a person, and they
survive, logically it should cause one to doubt the existence of some loving and caring god, rather than strengthen the belief.
Please know, Ron, that I am not arguing with you or criticizing you in any way. You are one of my Nomad friends and I have great respect for you and
what you have done for others in need. But I need to know this.
Originally posted by paranewbi
Hmmmm....Pol Pot, Stalin, Maio, Hitler (really does anybody on this board think we fought someone other than evil?...not Christian).
Another falacious argument of religions horrible suffering cast on mankind that I need to counter. The above men caused or directly influenced the
demise of 10's of millions (some say 60 million collectively) with their 'contemporary tools' in a short span of 60 some years.
It would all just be blissfull on earth if we just stopped believing in any thing other than man.
Better yet, without evil men, maybe there would be no God!
But than who amongst us has not shamed themselves in their actions or their thoughts...oops we are them.
Originally posted by SFandH
Iflyfish, or anybody else,
Is the belief in the supernatural a key ingredient of 12 step programs used to overcome addictions? If so, how does it help?
[Edited on 6-11-2012 by SFandH]
Quote:
Originally posted by SFandH
Iflyfish, or anybody else,
Is the belief in the supernatural a key ingredient of 12 step programs used to overcome addictions? If so, how does it help?
[Edited on 6-11-2012 by SFandH]
The belief in a "higher power" is indeed a tenant of 12 step programs and has been very useful to many people. How one defines that "higher power" is
up to each individual. One's "higher power" could include what we call one's "inner voice" or conscience. That is my understanding of it, though I
claim no particular expertise in this area as I am not "in recovery". I have however spent many hours with people in 12 step programs discussing this
issue.
In my view it is harmful to take away something of value with out replacing it with something of greater value. In this case replacing the
narcissistic, self absorption and delusional thinking of addiction with some higher order thinking/feeling/experiences.
It is in my view noteworthy that psychotropic drugs have been used successfully in the treatment of alcoholism as those drugs can provide access to
"spiritual" experiences that change ones frame of reference and provide a genuine experience of transcendent that the central nervous system
depressant, alcohol, cannot provide.
There is renewed interest in the use of psychedelic drugs in the treatment of alcoholism after decades of neglect due to societal factors. You will
find some fascinating and I believe relevant information regarding the field of religious experience "higher power", in the professional literature on
Alcoholism and its treatment with Psychedelic drugs.
We should never underestimate the power of these "transcendent" experiences in changing people's lives. We see here a post from our amigo who recently
went thru a near death experience and has been kind and brave enough to share that experience with us. We are all very grateful that he and his wife
both survived their horrible experience and I am grateful that something good came out of this for them.
Originally posted by paranewbi
Hmmmm....Pol Pot, Stalin, Maio, Hitler (really does anybody on this board think we fought someone other than evil?...not Christian).
Great list of idealistic "true believers" who wished to impose their "true beliefs" on the rest of the world. I would just add them to the list of
Christian, Muslim, Jewish, ....fill in the blank..... "true believers" who have committed the same atrocities. Their religion was Communism, Fascism,
and in other cases religious backed Colonialism.
Iflyfish
And in Hitler's case, christianity, as he confirmed so often in his speeches and writing.
Originally posted by BajaGringo
I accept the big bang theory as to the origins of this universe in which we exist but that does not explain away the creation of the highly dense mass
of energy that existed just moments before the big bang event. Where did that come from? It is impossible for me to believe or accept that anything
else than intelligent design was at work at that singularity.
Now you have me interested because that's where I'm at. I'm hoping Astrobaja chimes in with his cosmological thoughts.
I disagree with your last sentence. Aren't you saying that because of the existence of some thing or observation that hasn't been explained yet, there
must exist an entity that transcends the physical universe?
My understanding is that far more people dispose of their addictive behavior without a 12 step program than those who do. Clearly, all the activity is
taking place in the brain of the addicted individual. A "belief" that there is someone to blame, or someone to automatically forgive transgressions
may make the process easier for some, but in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, nothing external/supernatural is happening to the addicted
person.
Barry: Your question is getting a lot more play, from my perspective, lately. In studying the connotation of the word "atheist", it is clear that
religion likes to put an evil spin on the word. In reality, as I've said before, it is like calling oneself a "afairy" if they don't happen to believe
in fairies.
Secular humanists recognize that the absence of a belief in the supernatural is no substitute for an understanding of morality, ethics, and a
cooperative understanding of the means for peaceful social interaction.
I think the fact that the US of A, One nation under God, has seven times more of their people (per capita) locked up in civil prisons than does
communist China is clear indication of the failure of the national religion to provide a working moral code.
"The devil made me do it, and Jesus died for my sins", simply scapegoat accountability and provide no moral framework. The ridiculous madness of
biblical rules about who has to kill whom for what do not even relate to the 21st. century and must be eliminated from our culture if we are to
survive.
I found one of the most important explanations of the bible as the word of God "word for word" in a place that helps explain why so many rational
people find this mythology pernicious.
The is from the Field Manual for the Free Militia, the instruction book for forming your own right wing Christian dominionist paramilitary army.
Quote:
To answer this question we will briefly look at what the Bible says about its own inspiration, inerrancy, sufficiency, and authority.
First, look at 2 Timothy 3:16-17: "All Scripture is God- breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, so
that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." Here the apostle Paul is teaching us that the Bible (or Scriptures) are inspired
by God or God-breathed. Take careful note of two things that Paul says are God-breathed or inspired. He says that "all Scripture is God-breathed."
Notice here that it is the actual Scriptures themselves, the words of the Bible, that are inspired (God-breathed) and not simply the authors. God gave
us the precise wording of the Bible in its original Hebrew and Greek, not just the main ideas. Paul also says that "all Scripture is God-breathed." It
is not just portions of the Bible that are inspired but all of it. We therefore say that the Bible is the word of God! This testimony that the Bible
is the word of God runs throughout the whole Bible. (See, for example, Exodus 34:27, 2 Samuel 23:2, Jeremiah 26:2, John 12:49, John 17:8, 1
Corinthians 14:37, and Revelation 2:18.)
Now to say that the entire Bible is equally inspired word-for- word does not necessarily mean that it is all of equal value or interest to us. It
simply means that word-for-word it all came from God.
The Bible is word-for-word the word of God. Therefore it is completely true or without any errors. This is what we mean by "inerrancy." Think about
it. If God knows everything (1 John 3:20) and cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18), and if the Bible's words are God's words, then there cannot be any mistakes
in the Bible. Otherwise, God would either have to be wrong himself or lying to us.
While this line of reasoning is undeniable, the Bible does not leave us to make our own conclusions about its truthfulness. The concept of
infallibility or inerrancy is clearly the Bible's own teaching about itself. Jesus said, "Not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen,
will by any means disappear from the Law" (Matthew 5:18). In other words, the Bible must be fulfilled in the smallest detail. He also taught that "the
Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35) and praying to the Father stated, "Your word is truth" (John 17:17). God's word can only be truth if it is
free from errors. Remember in school when true or false questions on tests were false if any part of them were wrong? Luke wrote his gospel "so that
you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught" (Luke 1:4). Peter wrote, "We have the word of the prophets made more certain" (2 Peter
1:19). More certain than what? Read 2 Peter 1:16-18. Peters says that the word of the prophets is more certain than his own eyewitness experience of
Jesus Christ.
Now the fact that the Bible doesn't have any mistakes is not simply "academic" truth. It is of immense practical importance. Only if it is all true
can we know for sure that any particular part of it is true. Do you want to do right by obeying a command in the Bible only to find out later that you
were wrong to do what you did? Of course not. We need a Bible that is true throughout to have any real hope of pleasing God.
There is still more you need to know about the Bible. Not only is it God's word, not only is it true, but it contains everything you need to know
about God and your relationship with him. The fact that it is everything we need to know is summed up by the word "sufficient" and is clearly taught
by Paul the apostle in 2 Timothy 3:15-17. It tells us everything we need to know for salvation (2 Timothy 3:15), truth (2 Timothy 3:16), and good
works (2 Timothy 3:17). This is why the Bible tells us over and over again never to add to it or to take away from it (Deuteronomy 4:2, Proverbs 30:6,
Revelation 22:18).
Now when we say that the Bible tells us everything we need to know, we need to realize that some things are stated directly and some indirectly. A
good algebra textbook, for instance, may not give answers to every algebra problem. Yet is does fully define the rules and principles by which every
algebra problem may be solved. The Bible likewise contains all that we need for our relationship with God even if it does not provide direct answers
for every problem or question we face. On such indirect issues we must draw valid conclusions based on what Scripture does say.
This leads us to the final point which needs to be made about the Bible: the Bible alone is authoritative meaning that it, and only it, must be
completely believed and obeyed. Since all of the Bible is God's word we cannot pick and choose what we want to obey. Since it is all true we cannot
neglect a portion of it by raising doubts about its reliability. Since it contains all we need for our Christian walks we cannot appeal to something
or someone besides the Bible as our final authority on some issue.
endquote###
This is part of the manifesto of the criminal gang that is operating openly in my neighborhood, and has the full support of my local Sheriff!
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
Ken - that is a good, valid question. Countless atrocities have occurred throughout time; perpetrated both on and by people of faith. Religion has a
very bad record in that regard and was part of the reason why I questioned my own belief in religion/God early on in my life.
I don't fault God for what happened last year; I fault the three idiots who did this to us. Personally, I don't believe that all that happens here on
earth is at God's direction or command. I think He set the system up to run pretty much on autopilot. I suppose that it was they call free will. There
are times perhaps when God may intervene but it is something I can neither explain or even begin to speculate on. It is beyond my pay grade and life
experience so far.
I can say that I know that a higher power intervened on my behalf last year and to be true to myself is to acknowledge that. To go into further
details is highly personal and simply not appropriate in a public, open forum IMHO. It is something I haven't even shared with many, even in my own
family. If we should ever have the pleasure to meet in person Ken and would like to know, I will share with you then.
As a man of science I not only understand but welcome your questions Ken (and others). I question many things in life and that includes my faith. I
believe in a God that I cannot physically see or touch, much like I believe in the love Cristina expresses for me and I feel for her. Our love is
something we cannot physically see or touch and it is often even hard to describe. But the fact that I cannot feel or touch or even prove to anyone
else my love for Cristina, I know it is there, deep in my heart. Such is my faith in God...
Originally posted by vgabndo
A "belief" that there is someone to blame, or someone to automatically forgive transgressions may make the process easier for some, but in the absence
of any evidence to the contrary, nothing external/supernatural is happening to the addicted person.
Ok thanks for explaining the role it plays in 12 step programs. I never understood its usefullness.
Originally posted by BajaGringo
In fact I challenge any of those here who claim to be religious to find the word religion in the Bible. It doesn't exist. Religion was of mans
creation, not God's. And man has managed to screw that up quite well on his own throughout time. To find fault with religion and equate that with
finding fault with God however, is a mistake IMHO.
Ron it's in Acts (Apostles) 25:19 and 26:5 and in James 1:26 and 1:27.
Really? The word "religion" didn't show up in my old Bible as I recall. Maybe it was another version that used a different term like faith or creed?
The point I was trying make was that I don't believe that religion was an invention of God but of man. More specifically an invention of man used to
manipulate other men via their faith...
The 12-steps program identify surrendering to a greater power than oneself as the first step to acknowledging the need for help outside oneself - in
this case God.
For the secular - it's having the "insight" that the problem is bigger than the individual. Having the awareness that one has a problem is key to
making choices and often people facing big challenges need lots of outside help. A modern view is the "transtheoretical model of change": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transtheoretical_model
...a nice umbrella for all to fit under.
When the way comes to an end, then change. Having changed, you pass through.
~ I-Ching
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Today, I believe in God with all my heart and soul. After what Cristina and I went through last year, that belief today is only stronger.
Hi Ron
Thank you for your intelligent, thoughtful post. You raise an issue that has confounded me for years, and perhaps you can shed some light on it.
In the aftermath of horrible experiences like you and Cristina went through last year, and after virtually every natural disaster (flood, fire,
tornado, hurricane, earthquake, etc.), someone always seems to state, as you did, with all sincerity and gratitude, the fact that he/she was spared
has somehow strengthened their belief in god (“…god was looking out for me…there is a god”, something like that). That is stated in spite of the fact
that god in its mercy allowed the horrible event to happen in the first place, suggesting that god, if it exists, is either impotent or evil, rather
than loving and caring. If god allows a horrible thing to occur in the first place, why would he/she/it give a damn who survived and who didn’t?
Perhaps you could shed some light on this, since you went through it. It seems to me that when a terrible thing happens to a person, and they
survive, logically it should cause one to doubt the existence of some loving and caring god, rather than strengthen the belief.
Please know, Ron, that I am not arguing with you or criticizing you in any way. You are one of my Nomad friends and I have great respect for you and
what you have done for others in need. But I need to know this.
I have been of necessity had to deal with this issue in my practice as I have worked with many people who have had the sort of experience Ron has so
generously shared with us. I have both read and heard many accounts of near and death experiences. Many are profoundly changed by these experiences.
These experiences are common, though not universal. By using the term common I don't mean in any way to discount their significance.
In another post on "higher power and AA" I cite the literature on Psychedelic transcendent experiences in the treatment of addiction. I think you will
find that literature fascinating when considering this issue.
What Ron is describing is an EXPERIENCE, not an intellectual awareness, though intellectual integration is necessary following an experience like
this. These experiences are often integrated and discussed in "spiritual" contexts, we simply have no other context in which to do so. Our language
and "normal" experience does not for most include experiences like this.
It is interesting to note that Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert, both PhD Psychologists at Harvard, working on the MMPI, the most reliable and most
used Psychological test we have, took LSD and it changed their lives. I think it is interesting to note HOW it changed their lives.
Leary was a good Catholic boy who did it all right, in a very tightly bound Irish Catholic way, took LSD and went counter script "Tune in, Turn on and
Drop out". He then lived the rest of his life in essentially a rebellion against his rather rigid, controlled, contrived upbringing.
Now Alpert on the other hand said to himself after taking LDS...hmmm... these are experiences that we have no context to integrate (he could have
talked to a Native American shaman and got some insight) so I'll go to India where I know they have had thousands of years of experience with these
matters. He went to ashram after ashram before spending a lengthy stay with a guru. He decided after this experience to come back to America and work
with dying people, as they had in his view the most immediate possibility of full aliveness as they faced their death. He was instrumental in the
development of the hospice movement.
Some religious scholars have concluded that Jesus took psychedelic mushrooms with hermit monks during his sojourn into the desert. This bastard son,
the son of Mary, a most lowly and despised status in his time, returned from his enlightenment to proclaim "there is a father in heaven and he loves
you". Again one sees the interplay between personal psychology and religious experience.
The Buddha was a Prince, son of a very rich and powerful ruler. He secrets himself out of his fathers castle, with its fine food, harem etc. and
discovers that there is poverty and suffering in the world. He sets out to right this, no doubt feeling a powerful sense of guilt over the matter. He
meditates and after his enlightenment proclaims the following "noble truths" which I paraphrase "There is suffering in the world" and "One can
overcome suffering thru meditation". Again one sees the interplay between personal psychology and religious experience.
So on the level of personal "religious" experience there is in my view no way of separating them from our own personal psychology. In saying this I am
in no way discounting the experiences nor the conclusions that people derive from these experiences, I am only pointing out that these experiences
exist in a context that is part of how they are integrated. The bone in our own nose is the hardest to see as my Anthropologist brother is want to
say.
Originally posted by BajaGringo
In fact I challenge any of those here who claim to be religious to find the word religion in the Bible. It doesn't exist. Religion was of mans
creation, not God's. And man has managed to screw that up quite well on his own throughout time. To find fault with religion and equate that with
finding fault with God however, is a mistake IMHO.
Ron it's in Acts (Apostles) 25:19 and 26:5 and in James 1:26 and 1:27.
Really? The word "religion" didn't show up in my old Bible as I recall. Maybe it was another version that used a different term like faith or creed?
The point I was trying make was that I don't believe that religion was an invention of God but of man. More specifically an invention of man used to
manipulate other men via their faith...
It's probably just different versions of this inerrant bible
I have four bibles, three online (searchable) and one hard copy (TNAB) and the word "religion" shows up in those four places in each. This is no big
deal, and just further points out that nobody really knows what's in the bible because there are so many different versions. Depends on which one you
pick. Pretty careless for something inspired or written by the creator of the universe
Originally posted by SFandH
Iflyfish, or anybody else,
Is the belief in the supernatural a key ingredient of 12 step programs used to overcome addictions? If so, how does it help?
[Edited on 6-11-2012 by SFandH]
The belief in a "higher power" is indeed a tenant of 12 step programs and has been very useful to many people. How one defines that "higher power" is
up to each individual. One's "higher power" could include what we call one's "inner voice" or conscience. That is my understanding of it, though I
claim no particular expertise in this area as I am not "in recovery". I have however spent many hours with people in 12 step programs discussing this
issue.
In my view it is harmful to take away something of value with out replacing it with something of greater value. In this case replacing the
narcissistic, self absorption and delusional thinking of addiction with some higher order thinking/feeling/experiences.
Iflyfish
Thanks. Wndgrl too. Just looking for the positive side. The negative side is well known.
The link below is to videos of who some people say is one of today's most influential atheists, Christopher Hitchens. He died recently of cancer.
Fascinating guy. Well thought out opinions on many topics.
Ron I need to apologize to you. After I posted that message about the word "religion" in the bible I realized it might be taken as confrontational,
and that wasn't my intent. I didn't want to put you on the defensive. But unfortunately before I deleted it you saw it. I apologize and I feel bad
about it. Your point (religion was invented by man) was well made regardless of whether or not the word "religion" appears in the bible. Anyway I
apologize, I wish you had never seen that post.
Sheesh, I need a vacation after this thread.......
Originally posted by SFandH
The link below is to videos of who some people say is one of today's most influential atheists, Christopher Hitchens. He died recently of cancer.
Fascinating guy. Well thought out opinions on many topics.
There are four prominent contemporary atheist authors, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and Daniel Dennett. Well, three now that
Hitch is gone but his writings will live on. Hitch's book "god is Not Great - How Religion Poisons Everything" is brilliant but very confrontational.
He has little patience for believers.
Dawkins is an eloquent evolutionary biologist who can really explain natural selection. Along with his books on evolution his "best-seller" is "The
god Delusion". I don't know much about Dennett although I have heard him speak. He is very erudite and philosophical.
My personal favorite is Sam Harris. His first two books are classic - "The End of Faith" and "Letter to a christian Nation". Sam goes right to the
jugular in pointing out the dangers and follies of religion, but he is less insulting and confrontational than Hitch (except when he receives death
threats from his christian readers, and he has received thousands).
Harris's books are definitely worth a read for those who want to understand the contemporary non-believer's positions.
Originally posted by SFandH
Iflyfish, or anybody else,
Is the belief in the supernatural a key ingredient of 12 step programs used to overcome addictions? If so, how does it help?
[Edited on 6-11-2012 by SFandH]
The belief in a "higher power" is indeed a tenant of 12 step programs and has been very useful to many people. How one defines that "higher power" is
up to each individual. One's "higher power" could include what we call one's "inner voice" or conscience. That is my understanding of it, though I
claim no particular expertise in this area as I am not "in recovery". I have however spent many hours with people in 12 step programs discussing this
issue.
In my view it is harmful to take away something of value with out replacing it with something of greater value. In this case replacing the
narcissistic, self absorption and delusional thinking of addiction with some higher order thinking/feeling/experiences.
Iflyfish
Thanks. Wndgrl too. Just looking for the positive side. The negative side is well known.
[Edited on 6-11-2012 by SFandH]
When I first entered the Program down in Texas 28 years ago they told me there was but TWO THINGS I needed to know about GOD is THERE IS ONE and
the second was IT AIN'T YOU. Works for me
Hmmmm....Pol Pot, Stalin, Maio, Hitler (really does anybody on this board think we fought someone other than evil?...not Christian).
Newbi, I can understand your confusion, but repeating the same lies will not make them true. Including A. Hitler with the list above is disingenuous.
Here are some things I've found and have not found anything to disprove them yet. In the 1930s the religious demographic of Germany was about 94%
Christian, this sect being divided about 60/40 between the Lutheran and Catholic cults, with the Lutherans predominating.
In 1934 Germany got a new constitution, and new pledges of allegiance to the Reich, and their new elected leader. The pledge for government officials
began with "By God..." and the one for civilians ended with "...so help me God." As noted earlier all of those German soldiers with "God is with me"
on their belt buckles managed to directly kill, or just starve to death, 20 million Russians before they were finally repulsed. Are you suggesting,
Newbi, that all that damage was done by the less than 10% of Germany that was NOT Christian? That won't fly, you must know, because the casualties
among the N-zi invaders far exceeded the numbers of non-Christians known to be living in Germany before they decided to take over the world...by God.
For millions of N-zi troops, Christianity was their moral code.
I believe history shows that the fact that the USSR didn't have Christianity as a state religion was part of the reason for the German invasion. (The
strike may be called pre-emptive; justification recently used by the Christian G W Bush.) That Christians would stave to death millions of women,
children, and old men over a period of years should not be any surprise.
Mine was an evil laugh when I read something earlier on this thread about the Judeo-Christian ethic. There would almost certainly be no such thing
today if the Russians hadn't kicked Hitler's butt. Christian Germany could have completed the "final solution" and there would be no judeos to have
an ethic. Sectarian warfare is historically a major part of Christian behavior.
Look at the cost in Christian lives when some of them decided to mess up corporate America's labor relations by freeing their slaves. Brother
butchered brother in the name of the God-given right to buy and sell other human beings and/or their children for about 4 years. Charles Darwin was
partly to blame for that, his recently published findings had just begun to change the world forever.
150 years of EXCELLENT science has followed and Darwin and Wallace are still revered for their revelations. From the mouth of the Christian God we
have heard nothing. I hear that it speaks to people's hearts? In the immortal words of The Church Lady, "Isn't THAT convenient?"
If you are trying to hide something.
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
"If it were lush and rich, one could understand the pull, but it is fierce and hostile and sullen.
The stone mountains pile up to the sky and there is little fresh water. But we know we must go back
if we live, and we don't know why." - Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." - Theodore Roosevelt
"You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them or to them." - Malcolm Forbes
"Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others
cry over small hurts, but not you. Let others leave their future in someone else's hands, but not you." - Jim Rohn
"The best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer." - Cunningham's Law
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