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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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Jeez! Got some real heavy thoughts being tossed back and forth here. I'm soaking it up! Learning! That's what life is all about.  Thanking all you Nomads, pro and con.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Sheesh, I need a vacation after this thread.......
++Ken+ |
True believers call it a "Retreat." Here's one at Thomas Merton's old digs:
http://www.monks.org/retreats.html
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Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3326
Registered: 12-13-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mellow
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vgabndo would you adopt me?
DENNIS I was gonna say "retreat" but I reconsidered Shoulda followed my first
instinct.
carpe diem!
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Bajafun777
Super Nomad
Posts: 1103
Registered: 9-13-2006
Location: Rosarito & California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enjoying Life with Wife In Mexico, Easy on The Easy
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I have read this thread off and on but would still say I pray for all non-believers, while at the same time praying for a better world. I know for a
fact how much good Christians are doing every day throughout the world. I know for a fact just in our small town how many of our local churches have
food kitchens to help others without enough to eat. I know of these same churches taking families to shelters and even paying for hotels until
housing could be found for them. I know for a fact how Christians have given money to help the less fortunate or others Christians in financial
problems. So, I know from personal experiences and also being involved with my church how much Christians are doing everyday for others.
I will not spend time trying to defend what soldiers did for kings, queens, or other dictators in the name of God, especially when it had nothing to
do with God. We Christians will continue to help others by being missionaries or supporting missionaries, going to countries such as Haiti to work
hard in building houses, safe water, etc. which many of our Christian brothers and sisters from just our little town have been doing faithfully for
several years now. I like being around people that care and do for the betterment of our communities and our world. I have found most Nomads also
like to help out others and have seen it on this site over and over again. I hope that giving will always be part of the Nomad experience.
So, I like being around other nomads even though I might not agree with their belief's but that is fine as long as they don't start getting
aggressive with me over it. We have all had good and bad experiences in our lives as BajaGringo gave in his writing about how he came home to Jesus
which is good to hear. I feel for those who have had bad experiences to where they have taken anger or maybe even hate towards the christian
religion. I hope all nomads and everyone else has a good life and have good times especially here in Baja and if they find the "Love Of JESUS" even
better in my hopes.
Now, Ken I have enjoyed your photos over the years and your writings of things you have experienced in Baja but your views on God I will just have to
agree to disagree with you. By the way I always like meeting Nomads, as in the past at book signing events at the Pyramids with Keri as host or in
my travels of Baja. Loved the turnout for the Nomad who traveled on foot from Tecate to Cabo, which was held at a hotel on hotel circle in San Diego.
Have shared a few "cold ones" with a number of Nomads and hope to do the same in the future. Take Care & Travel Safe--- "NO Hurry, No Worry,
Just FUN" bajafun777
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vgabndo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3461
Registered: 12-8-2003
Location: Mt. Shasta, CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Checking-off my bucket list.
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Ken, what you have shared here is unusually authentic among men I know. Naturally, the fact that we share the four, now three, horsemen as heroes does
nothing to diminish you in my eyes!
Since I killed the cable TV 18 months ago I've been gratified to find so many great video presentations and TED talks on line by the men you mention.
This is continuing education in my easy chair at the screen!
The thing I find most revealing about them and how they help me understand the debate that is going on here, is that I "believe" that none of them
would ever ask anyone to believe anything. If they don't have the data to draw a scientific conclusion, there will be no statement of fact. Further, I
judge that they would consider that any "fact" is open to constant re-evaluation in the light of new data.
This is where dogma fails the masses. By denying the sheep the right to investigate the limits of the paddock, by failing to encourage the sheep to
question the failures of their culture and mythology, the good shepherds have shortchanged a lot of good people.
Dennett has helped me understand the conflict many have between their intellect and the mind warping they received in their youth.
Thanks for your contribution. You too Rick.
idon'tflyfishbutIliketogotothehatcheryandfeedthem.
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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paranewbi
Senior Nomad
Posts: 913
Registered: 4-15-2011
Location: San diego
Member Is Offline
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Vgabndo;
Not that I have researched Hitler's 'Christian' beliefs but to maybe start with a cursory websearch: this is interesting read.
A Staff Report from the Straight Dope Science Advisory Board
Was Hitler a Christian?
October 30, 1999
I could probably find more speeches in which Hitler claims himself to be a Christian, but I think the point has been made. He said it. Now, what did
it mean?
It seems Hitler, like many modern-day politicians, spoke out of both sides of his mouth. And when he didn't, his lackeys did. It may have been
political pandering, just like many of our current politicians who invoke God's name to gain support.
Also, it seems probable that Hitler, being the great manipulator, knew that he couldn't fight the Christian churches and their members right off the
bat. So he made statements to put the church at ease and may have patronized religion as a way to prevent having to fight the Christian-based church.
In fact, Anton Gil notes in his book, An Honourable Defeat: A History of German Resistance to Hitler, 1933-1945: "For his part, Hitler naturally
wanted to bring the church into line with everything else in his scheme of things. He knew he dare not simply eradicate it: that would not have been
possible with such an international organisation, and he would have lost many Christian supporters had he tried to. His principal aim was to unify the
German Evangelical Church under a pro-N-zi banner, and to come to an accommodation with the Catholics."
In other words, while he was certainly evil, he also usually knew which wars he could win (at least until 1941) and only fought those. He knew he
could beat the Polish, French, and British armies and he allegedly counseled the Japanese against attacking the U.S.; he also requested that they open
up a front against Russia. He couldn't beat the church in open warfare--so he took control and then attacked them piecemeal while making statements to
put them at ease. Think about it--how many other times did Hitler break his word or ignore a treaty? He said whatever would make things easiest, and
then ignored it later.
Author Doug Krueger notes that "so many Germans were religious believers that Hitler, if not religious himself, at least had to pretend to be a
believer in order to gain support." He adds, "If the [Christian] message won converts, it would seem that most N-zis were probably [Christians] too.
After all, would appeal to divine mandate win more theists or atheists to the cause?" He also points out that "Even if Hitler was not a [Christian],
he could still have been a theist. Or a deist" (www.infidels.org/library /modern/doug_krueger/copin.html). Remember that being a non-Christian is not equal to being an atheist.
When all is said and done, Krueger says that anecdotal evidence from those close to him near the end of his life suggests that he was a at least a
deist, if not a theist. Krueger concludes: "So here's what evidence we have. There is a certain worldview, N-zism. Its leader, Hitler, professes on
many occasions to be religious, and he often states that he's doing the will of god. The majority of his followers are openly religious. There is no
evidence anywhere that this leader ever professed to anyone that he is an atheist. He and his followers actively campaign against atheism, even to the
point of physical force, and this leader allies himself with religious organizations and churches. This is the evidence. So where does atheism fit
in?" As Krueger notes, there seems to be no real evidence that Hitler was an atheist. On the other hand, since one could never be sure when he was
speaking his real thoughts and when he was simply riling up the masses, it's difficult to say for certain.
Continueing...
As for your chat-room experiences, well, my friend and source David Gehrig noted that Hitler still sets the gold standard for "easiest rhetorical
cheap shot." He related a comment from Usenet that there is an empirical law: As a Usenet discussion gets longer, the probability that someone in it
will compare someone else in it to Hitler asymptotically approaches 1. In other words, atheists looking for a quick cheap-shot may claim Hitler was a
Christian; similarly, Christians looking for a quick shot may claim he was an atheist. Know what? Hitler was a vegetarian! Oooh, those evil
vegetarians! He also recommended that parents give their children milk to drink instead of beer and started the first anti-smoking campaign. (So by
the "reasoning" used in these types of arguments, if you are truly anti-Hitler, you should smoke heavily and only give your baby beer!) Better watch
out, though he was an oxygen-breather, too! In other words, does it really matter whether Hitler was an atheist or a Christian or whatever? Just
because somebody may hold a particular worldview (along with other views) doesn't make him a spokesman for that view, or even remotely representative
of others who hold that view. No matter how his madness is painted, he was still evil incarnate.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1699/was-hitler-a-c...
As for Science ...recent material suggests there is a growing shift to the position that another Nomad has stated on this thread...the realization
that a Creator must be in the play.
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SFandH
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7084
Registered: 8-5-2011
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajafun777
I know for a fact how much good Christians are doing every day throughout the world. I know for a fact just in our small town how many of our local
churches have food kitchens to help others without enough to eat. I know of these same churches taking families to shelters and even paying for
hotels until housing could be found for them. I know for a fact how Christians have given money to help the less fortunate or others Christians in
financial problems. So, I know from personal experiences and also being involved with my church how much Christians are doing everyday for others.
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It's about time somebody spoke up for the charitable aspects of Christians. I'll remind folks that the same goes for all religions. The sense of
community and the responsibilities of being an upstanding member of any community are huge positive aspects that the atheists don't talk about, and I
think are really the main objectives, or certainly should be, of the common religious people worldwide.
Of course you don't need all the supernatural stuff to accomplish these objectives.
[Edited on 6-11-2012 by SFandH]
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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Hitler? He had a big problem with Jews, other than that, he was a gifted speaker. And his military wisdom contributed to the downfall of the third
reich.
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Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3326
Registered: 12-13-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mellow
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| Quote: | Originally posted by vgabndo
Ken, what you have shared here is unusually authentic among men I know. Naturally, the fact that we share the four, now three, horsemen as heroes does
nothing to diminish you in my eyes!
Since I killed the cable TV 18 months ago I've been gratified to find so many great video presentations and TED talks on line by the men you mention.
This is continuing education in my easy chair at the screen!
The thing I find most revealing about them and how they help me understand the debate that is going on here, is that I "believe" that none of them
would ever ask anyone to believe anything. If they don't have the data to draw a scientific conclusion, there will be no statement of fact. Further, I
judge that they would consider that any "fact" is open to constant re-evaluation in the light of new data.
This is where dogma fails the masses. By denying the sheep the right to investigate the limits of the paddock, by failing to encourage the sheep to
question the failures of their culture and mythology, the good shepherds have shortchanged a lot of good people.
Dennett has helped me understand the conflict many have between their intellect and the mind warping they received in their youth.
Thanks for your contribution. You too Rick.
idon'tflyfishbutIliketogotothehatcheryandfeedthem. |
Thanks vgabndo, I am flattered. Neil deGrasse Tyson is quickly becoming another hero of mine in the field of rational thinking. He is fabulous.
You didn't answer my question about adopting me.
++Ken++
carpe diem!
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Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3326
Registered: 12-13-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mellow
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| Quote: | Originally posted by SFandH
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajafun777
I know for a fact how much good Christians are doing every day throughout the world. I know for a fact just in our small town how many of our local
churches have food kitchens to help others without enough to eat. I know of these same churches taking families to shelters and even paying for
hotels until housing could be found for them. I know for a fact how Christians have given money to help the less fortunate or others Christians in
financial problems. So, I know from personal experiences and also being involved with my church how much Christians are doing everyday for others.
|
It's about time somebody spoke up for the charitable aspects of Christians. I'll remind folks that the same goes for all religions. The sense of
community and the responsibilities of being an upstanding member of any community are huge positive aspects that the atheists don't talk about, and I
think are really the main objectives, or certainly should be, of the common religious people worldwide.
Of course you don't need all the supernatural stuff to accomplish these objectives.
[Edited on 6-11-2012 by SFandH] |
Noone can deny that religious people do good things. But in my opinion they do them in spite of religion, not because of it.
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that
takes religion."
Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999
carpe diem!
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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Religion is big $$$. Many contribute and a few get rich. Sorta like the lottery! Not gonna mention any names, might get involved in a law suit, but there are a lot of people who have grown rich playing the "Jesus Saves
Game".
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
The major turning point in my path towards atheism, however, came when I actually sat down and read the bible, cover to cover, discovering that it was
a vicious, evil and repulsive book, full of genocide and slaughter, telling me that I should keep slaves, kill anyone who works on weekends, kill
anyone who believes in some other imaginary god, and that virgin women who are raped must marry their rapist (I’m not kidding, it’s in Deuteronomy
22:28-29). I was astonished to read that the creator of the universe got peeed at humanity (which he/she allegedly created in the first place), and
killed everyone (except one breeding pair from each species) in a great flood, including innocent children. Religious people thought all that really
happened, and that somehow it was aall good thing. I started to wonder if all the people who had been telling me how great the bible was had ever
actually read it.
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But, Ken, no christian believes in any of this these days. Are you saying that the only true christians are the ones who accept literally everything
that's written in that book? I'm not sure there is value in disclaiming a religion that few religious people believe in.
There was a fair amount of writing about the authorship of the bible. Above you talked about the great flood. Most people, however, are struck by the
absurdity of the story. That is the idea of fitting the gazillion species into that ark. The story reminds many of us of stories of primitive people
for their own origins, e.g. the world sits on the back of 4 sea turtles. And then there is genesis itself. So people of faith pick and choose sections
of the bible they find most inspiring. Even the churches do that. They do this because of inconsistencies and falsehoods in the bible. Yet you feel
uncomfortable with that. You refer to it as cherry picking I believe.
The biggest inconsistency seems to be between the old and new testament.
An eye for an eye vs turn the other cheek.
There is clearly a different direction that christianity has turned. It seems to me that after Christ appeared historically the teaching of humility
and meekness have replaced that of retribution in almost all of Christendom. The only people who still defend their vengeful actions are the Jewish
people, who never accepted Christ as deity anyway. I bring this up because you felt it was unreasonable that Christians don't acknowledge the old
testament sometimes. They really can't and the church since Christ has gone in a different direction.
Regarding truth and spirituality. I have to say that I've felt uncomfortable with the approaches and notions that psychologists use to get at truth.
It's all seems so soft and unstable. Conclusions based upon how a people felt after an experience. Higher power. Spirituality. Awareness without
seeing. All of these concepts that best describe religious experience.
Through your writing,Ken, it seems to me that you too feel uncomfortable in this type of world. Your approach to the bible is totally rational. You
dispute it in a very logical manner and nobody can really refute your objections.
I do, however, believe that generally speaking these 'spiritual' people, those that take liberties with reality seem to be a happier group of people.
You can often identify them on nomads by their writing style. A sort of loosey-goosey description of everything they experience. Interestingly enough,
with the exception of Baja Gringo they have not participated on this thread.
So, Ken, the bottom line is that it's not religion that is the problem, it's rationality.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
You go for a walk as I did this morning and come across an iris which delights you. You then note all of it's colors. You count it's petals and write
down. You measure it's height and size of all components. You take it to the lab and break it down to it's organic compounds and write down. You place
it into a bomb calorimeter and measure it's caloric content. Now you've got all the information that you could possibly get from this flower. Has your
experience become any richer as a result? Was your experience richer before you learned all of this?
To me, the above is somehow related to how a spiritual person experiences life vs the rest of us.
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Bajafun777
Super Nomad
Posts: 1103
Registered: 9-13-2006
Location: Rosarito & California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enjoying Life with Wife In Mexico, Easy on The Easy
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Ken correction to Weinberg opinion of his writings, It should be "for good people to do evil things, that takes corruption and bad people!" Religion
has nothing to do with it just another mis-interperated opinion from someone throwing rocks at those who are serving God.
Cypress, I do not know a lot of people growing rich off the "Jesus Saves Game" but I do know people that have tried this,however in time they lost
everything! Church is not to get rich but to enlighten yourself to live a better fullfulling life with JESUS's teachings. When one tides or gives to
the church they do so for the upkeep of the church and to help projects or missionaries in designated giving funds. Some churches have several
designated funds that helps in paying the bills for water, electricity, gas, insurance, salaries of those working at the church besides outreaching in
the community or other designated places. Most churches have elected members that meet monthly to keep up on these monies and how they are being
spent.
Most of the big churches on T.V. or Radio have some people that have gotten rich but usually through their books, c.d.s, or paid television spots.
So, some can get rich but they will be having to push their wares just like businesses do with some C.E.O.s making millions. This is not something
that is true of most churches, as most are just paying the bills and have to ask for "Love Offerings" for those special needs such as new air
conditioner, roof, etc. In our small church most of the members are willing give to help with such request,s as they see the immediate need which
benefits all in the church. Those that can give a little more do as in our church we have people from all walks of life but all try to give
something. Take Care & Travel Safe----------"No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3922
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
Member Is Offline
Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Ron I need to apologize to you. After I posted that message about the word "religion" in the bible I realized it might be taken as confrontational,
and that wasn't my intent. |
Ken - even though we have never had the pleasure to meet in person I feel that I have come to know you well enough online that I understood the intent
of your post. All is good my friend.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I do, however, believe that generally speaking these 'spiritual' people, those that take liberties with reality seem to be a happier group of people.
You can often identify them on nomads by their writing style. A sort of loosey-goosey description of everything they experience. Interestingly enough,
with the exception of Baja Gringo they have not participated on this thread.
So, Ken, the bottom line is that it's not religion that is the problem, it's rationality.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
You go for a walk as I did this morning and come across an iris which delights you. You then note all of it's colors. You count it's petals and write
down. You measure it's height and size of all components. You take it to the lab and break it down to it's organic compounds and write down. You place
it into a bomb calorimeter and measure it's caloric content. Now you've got all the information that you could possibly get from this flower. Has your
experience become any richer as a result? Was your experience richer before you learned all of this?
To me, the above is somehow related to how a spiritual person experiences life vs the rest of us. |
I am loosey-goosey? Does the fact that I even know what a bomb calorimeter is and performed analyses using one (Parr) for many years sway you???
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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Bajafun777, Those "special needs"?
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Noone can deny that religious people do good things. But in my opinion they do them in spite of religion, not because of it.
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I agree. For every Mother Theresa there many Bill Gates contributing millions to world disease.
By the same token the evil done by the church in the name of the church is not done because of religion but in spite of religion.
When the time comes that a stadium full of fans can watch an NFL football game completely dispassionately. Then there will be no more crusades.
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woody with a view
PITA Nomad
Posts: 15939
Registered: 11-8-2004
Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Everchangin'
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we are all from different clans. most clans feel superior to others. that about sums it up without invoking religion.
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Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3326
Registered: 12-13-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mellow
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Igor I have embedded some responses in your post below, they are in {{brackets}}
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
The major turning point in my path towards atheism, however, came when I actually sat down and read the bible, cover to cover, discovering that it was
a vicious, evil and repulsive book, full of genocide and slaughter, telling me that I should keep slaves, kill anyone who works on weekends, kill
anyone who believes in some other imaginary god, and that virgin women who are raped must marry their rapist (I’m not kidding, it’s in Deuteronomy
22:28-29). I was astonished to read that the creator of the universe got peeed at humanity (which he/she allegedly created in the first place), and
killed everyone (except one breeding pair from each species) in a great flood, including innocent children. Religious people thought all that really
happened, and that somehow it was aall good thing. I started to wonder if all the people who had been telling me how great the bible was had ever
actually read it.
|
But, Ken, no christian believes in any of this these days. Are you saying that the only true christians are the ones who accept literally everything
that's written in that book? I'm not sure there is value in disclaiming a religion that few religious people believe in. {{I don't see the point of
having a holy book, written or inspired by the creator of the universe, if nobody believes what it says. What's the point? paranewbi and Bajafun777
seem to believe everything in the bible. If, as you say, no Christian believes in the bible, why don't they just reject it?}}
There was a fair amount of writing about the authorship of the bible. Above you talked about the great flood. Most people, however, are struck by the
absurdity of the story. That is the idea of fitting the gazillion species into that ark. The story reminds many of us of stories of primitive people
for their own origins, e.g. the world sits on the back of 4 sea turtles. And then there is genesis itself. So people of faith pick and choose sections
of the bible they find most inspiring. Even the churches do that. They do this because of inconsistencies and falsehoods in the bible. Yet you feel
uncomfortable with that. You refer to it as cherry picking I believe.
The biggest inconsistency seems to be between the old and new testament.
An eye for an eye vs turn the other cheek.
There is clearly a different direction that christianity has turned. It seems to me that after Christ appeared historically the teaching of humility
and meekness have replaced that of retribution in almost all of Christendom. {{This is simply untrue Igor. jesus defended the old testament and said
(Matthew 5:18) that every word in the old testament must be observed. That would include slavery, genocide, and all the other killing so lovingly
advocated by god in the old testament}} The only people who still defend their vengeful actions are the Jewish people, who never accepted Christ as
deity anyway. I bring this up because you felt it was unreasonable that Christians don't acknowledge the old testament sometimes. They really can't
and the church since Christ has gone in a different direction. {{Then why does every christian bible contain an old testament?}}
Regarding truth and spirituality. I have to say that I've felt uncomfortable with the approaches and notions that psychologists use to get at truth.
It's all seems so soft and unstable. Conclusions based upon how a people felt after an experience. Higher power. Spirituality. Awareness without
seeing. All of these concepts that best describe religious experience.
Through your writing,Ken, it seems to me that you too feel uncomfortable in this type of world. Your approach to the bible is totally rational. You
dispute it in a very logical manner and nobody can really refute your objections.
I do, however, believe that generally speaking these 'spiritual' people, those that take liberties with reality seem to be a happier group of people.
You can often identify them on nomads by their writing style. A sort of loosey-goosey description of everything they experience. Interestingly enough,
with the exception of Baja Gringo they have not participated on this thread.
So, Ken, the bottom line is that it's not religion that is the problem, it's rationality.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
You go for a walk as I did this morning and come across an iris which delights you. You then note all of it's colors. You count it's petals and write
down. You measure it's height and size of all components. You take it to the lab and break it down to it's organic compounds and write down. You place
it into a bomb calorimeter and measure it's caloric content. Now you've got all the information that you could possibly get from this flower. Has your
experience become any richer as a result? Was your experience richer before you learned all of this?
To me, the above is somehow related to how a spiritual person experiences life vs the rest of us. {When I encounter a beautiful iris I am stunned by
the beauty, but I have no interest in the chemical composition. I am, however, in awe of the evolutionary process of natural selection, which in very
slow steps over millennia, each favoring the survival of the flower, made it what it is today. That, to me is a very spiritual thing, having nothing
to do with god, religion or any other superstitions, and much more beautiful than any of the silly religious fairy tales.} |
carpe diem!
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by woody with a view
we are all from different clans. most clans feel superior to others. that about sums it up without invoking religion. |
Yes. And religion is used to uphold and strengthen the clan. They establish the "True Faith" and the young men are then blessed in the battlefield
before they raise their arms.
We've got it backwards. It's not religion driving men to war. That whole third reich thing was about clanishness.
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Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3326
Registered: 12-13-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mellow
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajafun777
Ken correction to Weinberg opinion of his writings, It should be "for good people to do evil things, that takes corruption and bad people!"
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Bajafun777 I have always thought Weinberg's quote was a bit extreme, even though I use it all the time. It would have been more accurate as "religion makes it a helluva lot easier for good people to do bad things". Based
on my personal experience that is indisputably true.
carpe diem!
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