"We've got it backwards. It's not religion driving men to war. That whole third reich thing was about clanishness."
While it may be true that the Ostrogoths, Visigoths and Huns were taught to me to be barbarians, the 20th century Hun, as the Allied Powers referred
to them, was for the most part a modern Christian. Christianity didn't seem to have much of an effect on their clannish barbarian behavior.
On the subject of the great flood, I finally found my search error and located the 1970's information I'd lost that provides the first good
explanation for all the flood myths in historic middle eastern cultures. Check out the work of the Glomar Challenger. She was a sister ship to the
Glomar Explorer the sometimes CIA contract vessel. The Challenger did work on plate tectonics and did a long series of bore holes along the length of
the Mediterranean Sea. They found good evidence that the Med. had dried up and refilled repeatedly as recently as 600,000 years ago.
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Today, I believe in God with all my heart and soul. After what Cristina and I went through last year, that belief today is only stronger.
Hi Ron
Thank you for your intelligent, thoughtful post. You raise an issue that has confounded me for years, and perhaps you can shed some light on it.
In the aftermath of horrible experiences like you and Cristina went through last year, and after virtually every natural disaster (flood, fire,
tornado, hurricane, earthquake, etc.), someone always seems to state, as you did, with all sincerity and gratitude, the fact that he/she was spared
has somehow strengthened their belief in god (“…god was looking out for me…there is a god”, something like that). That is stated in spite of the fact
that god in its mercy allowed the horrible event to happen in the first place, suggesting that god, if it exists, is either impotent or evil, rather
than loving and caring. If god allows a horrible thing to occur in the first place, why would he/she/it give a damn who survived and who didn’t?
Perhaps you could shed some light on this, since you went through it. It seems to me that when a terrible thing happens to a person, and they
survive, logically it should cause one to doubt the existence of some loving and caring god, rather than strengthen the belief.
Please know, Ron, that I am not arguing with you or criticizing you in any way. You are one of my Nomad friends and I have great respect for you and
what you have done for others in need. But I need to know this.
I have been of necessity had to deal with this issue in my practice as I have worked with many people who have had the sort of experience Ron has so
generously shared with us. I have both read and heard many accounts of near and death experiences. Many are profoundly changed by these experiences.
These experiences are common, though not universal. By using the term common I don't mean in any way to discount their significance.
In another post on "higher power and AA" I cite the literature on Psychedelic transcendent experiences in the treatment of addiction. I think you will
find that literature fascinating when considering this issue.
What Ron is describing is an EXPERIENCE, not an intellectual awareness, though intellectual integration is necessary following an experience like
this. These experiences are often integrated and discussed in "spiritual" contexts, we simply have no other context in which to do so. Our language
and "normal" experience does not for most include experiences like this.
It is interesting to note that Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert, both PhD Psychologists at Harvard, working on the MMPI, the most reliable and most
used Psychological test we have, took LSD and it changed their lives. I think it is interesting to note HOW it changed their lives.
Leary was a good Catholic boy who did it all right, in a very tightly bound Irish Catholic way, took LSD and went counter script "Tune in, Turn on and
Drop out". He then lived the rest of his life in essentially a rebellion against his rather rigid, controlled, contrived upbringing.
Now Alpert on the other hand said to himself after taking LDS...hmmm... these are experiences that we have no context to integrate (he could have
talked to a Native American shaman and got some insight) so I'll go to India where I know they have had thousands of years of experience with these
matters. He went to ashram after ashram before spending a lengthy stay with a guru. He decided after this experience to come back to America and work
with dying people, as they had in his view the most immediate possibility of full aliveness as they faced their death. He was instrumental in the
development of the hospice movement.
Some religious scholars have concluded that Jesus took psychedelic mushrooms with hermit monks during his sojourn into the desert. This bastard son,
the son of Mary, a most lowly and despised status in his time, returned from his enlightenment to proclaim "there is a father in heaven and he loves
you". Again one sees the interplay between personal psychology and religious experience.
The Buddha was a Prince, son of a very rich and powerful ruler. He secrets himself out of his fathers castle, with its fine food, harem etc. and
discovers that there is poverty and suffering in the world. He sets out to right this, no doubt feeling a powerful sense of guilt over the matter. He
meditates and after his enlightenment proclaims the following "noble truths" which I paraphrase "There is suffering in the world" and "One can
overcome suffering thru meditation". Again one sees the interplay between personal psychology and religious experience.
So on the level of personal "religious" experience there is in my view no way of separating them from our own personal psychology. In saying this I am
in no way discounting the experiences nor the conclusions that people derive from these experiences, I am only pointing out that these experiences
exist in a context that is part of how they are integrated. The bone in our own nose is the hardest to see as my Anthropologist brother is want to
say.
Iflyfish
An aspiring Hindu goes to his guru for spiritual help...after some time the young man attains the stage of enlightenment that he is "also" God. Wow,
he thinks, I'm God! Full of it, he proudly walks down the main street in town...some distance away down the street a man on on elephant is coming
towards him...the young aspirant thinks to himself that now that he is God the man on the elephant can very well just get out of his way...they get
nearer and nearer to each other and finally the elephant rider is yelling at the intern to get out of the way but he doesn't step aside and gets badly
trampled by the elephant. Bruised and battered the intern makes his way back to the guru and tells him the story about the elephant. The aspirant
explains his confusion as to why the elephant didn't get out of his way, now that he was God...the guru replies----the rider on the elephant is God
too!
Always like that parable---but yes since God is as much a part of us as anything else (I'm speaking in metaphor here) its not surprising that our own
psychologies are integral to the experience, at least in part.
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Today, I believe in God with all my heart and soul. After what Cristina and I went through last year, that belief today is only stronger.
Hi Ron
Thank you for your intelligent, thoughtful post. You raise an issue that has confounded me for years, and perhaps you can shed some light on it.
In the aftermath of horrible experiences like you and Cristina went through last year, and after virtually every natural disaster (flood, fire,
tornado, hurricane, earthquake, etc.), someone always seems to state, as you did, with all sincerity and gratitude, the fact that he/she was spared
has somehow strengthened their belief in god (“…god was looking out for me…there is a god”, something like that). That is stated in spite of the fact
that god in its mercy allowed the horrible event to happen in the first place, suggesting that god, if it exists, is either impotent or evil, rather
than loving and caring. If god allows a horrible thing to occur in the first place, why would he/she/it give a damn who survived and who didn’t?
Perhaps you could shed some light on this, since you went through it. It seems to me that when a terrible thing happens to a person, and they
survive, logically it should cause one to doubt the existence of some loving and caring god, rather than strengthen the belief.
Please know, Ron, that I am not arguing with you or criticizing you in any way. You are one of my Nomad friends and I have great respect for you and
what you have done for others in need. But I need to know this.
I have been of necessity had to deal with this issue in my practice as I have worked with many people who have had the sort of experience Ron has so
generously shared with us. I have both read and heard many accounts of near and death experiences. Many are profoundly changed by these experiences.
These experiences are common, though not universal. By using the term common I don't mean in any way to discount their significance.
In another post on "higher power and AA" I cite the literature on Psychedelic transcendent experiences in the treatment of addiction. I think you will
find that literature fascinating when considering this issue.
What Ron is describing is an EXPERIENCE, not an intellectual awareness, though intellectual integration is necessary following an experience like
this. These experiences are often integrated and discussed in "spiritual" contexts, we simply have no other context in which to do so. Our language
and "normal" experience does not for most include experiences like this.
It is interesting to note that Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert, both PhD Psychologists at Harvard, working on the MMPI, the most reliable and most
used Psychological test we have, took LSD and it changed their lives. I think it is interesting to note HOW it changed their lives.
Leary was a good Catholic boy who did it all right, in a very tightly bound Irish Catholic way, took LSD and went counter script "Tune in, Turn on and
Drop out". He then lived the rest of his life in essentially a rebellion against his rather rigid, controlled, contrived upbringing.
Now Alpert on the other hand said to himself after taking LDS...hmmm... these are experiences that we have no context to integrate (he could have
talked to a Native American shaman and got some insight) so I'll go to India where I know they have had thousands of years of experience with these
matters. He went to ashram after ashram before spending a lengthy stay with a guru. He decided after this experience to come back to America and work
with dying people, as they had in his view the most immediate possibility of full aliveness as they faced their death. He was instrumental in the
development of the hospice movement.
Some religious scholars have concluded that Jesus took psychedelic mushrooms with hermit monks during his sojourn into the desert. This bastard son,
the son of Mary, a most lowly and despised status in his time, returned from his enlightenment to proclaim "there is a father in heaven and he loves
you". Again one sees the interplay between personal psychology and religious experience.
The Buddha was a Prince, son of a very rich and powerful ruler. He secrets himself out of his fathers castle, with its fine food, harem etc. and
discovers that there is poverty and suffering in the world. He sets out to right this, no doubt feeling a powerful sense of guilt over the matter. He
meditates and after his enlightenment proclaims the following "noble truths" which I paraphrase "There is suffering in the world" and "One can
overcome suffering thru meditation". Again one sees the interplay between personal psychology and religious experience.
So on the level of personal "religious" experience there is in my view no way of separating them from our own personal psychology. In saying this I am
in no way discounting the experiences nor the conclusions that people derive from these experiences, I am only pointing out that these experiences
exist in a context that is part of how they are integrated. The bone in our own nose is the hardest to see as my Anthropologist brother is want to
say.
Iflyfish
An aspiring Hindu goes to his guru for spiritual help...after some time the young man attains the stage of enlightenment that he is "also" God. Wow,
he thinks, I'm God! Full of it, he proudly walks down the main street in town...some distance away down the street a man on on elephant is coming
towards him...the young aspirant thinks to himself that now that he is God the man on the elephant can very well just get out of his way...they get
nearer and nearer to each other and finally the elephant rider is yelling at the intern to get out of the way but he doesn't step aside and gets badly
trampled by the elephant. Bruised and battered the intern makes his way back to the guru and tells him the story about the elephant. The aspirant
explains his confusion as to why the elephant didn't get out of his way, now that he was God...the guru replies----the rider on the elephant is God
too!
Always like that parable---but yes since God is as much a part of us as anything else (I'm speaking in metaphor here) its not surprising that our own
psychologies are integral to the experience, at least in part.
Thank-you for your insights Ifly--nice!
To equate this parable with my experience is demeaning and erroneous. This is exactly why I should have followed my initial gut instinct to avoid
posting at all in this thread. Have a nice day...
{{I don't see the point of having a holy book, written or inspired by the creator of the universe, if nobody believes what it says. What's the point?
paranewbi and Bajafun777 seem to believe everything in the bible. If, as you say, no Christian believes in the bible, why don't they just reject it?}}
Yes, paranewbi and bajafun777 do believe everything in the bible, but BajaGringo feels it's his right to interpret it as it makes sense to him. Most
Christians are like BajaGringo. Most Christians don't believe in the story of Noah's Ark. The people I grew up with were like BajaGringo. I never knew
any fundamentalists. I spent a year in Catholic school and 2 in a Protestant school. I can't remember a single bible passage that I memorized during
those 2 years but can remember most of the songs ("What a Friend I have in Jesus").
I never said that Christians don't believe in the bible. I said that Christians feel a certain amount of freedom to interpret it in a way that makes
sense to them. That's part of it's richness.
{When I encounter a beautiful iris I am stunned by the beauty, but I have no interest in the chemical composition. I am, however, in awe of the
evolutionary process of natural selection, which in very slow steps over millennia, each favoring the survival of the flower, made it what it is
today. That, to me is a very spiritual thing, having nothing to do with god, religion or any other superstitions, and much more beautiful than any of
the silly religious fairy tales.}
As I understand it god is a concept that is derived from spirituality. Perhaps some day you will conceive of a god in your musings about evolution.
To throw out the Old Testament is to throw out the creation story, Adam and Eve, Noah and the flood, and a whole lot more. I'm fine with it, but most
Christians aren't.
Let's call this book what it is - a compilation of beliefs from bronze age goat herders. When I summarize my feelings towards the bible I usually
narrow it down to the three major disagreements i have with it - the way the bible talks about women, the way it talks about children, and the way it
talks about homosexuals.
Originally posted by ateo
To throw out the Old Testament is to throw out the creation story, Adam and Eve, Noah and the flood, and a whole lot more. I'm fine with it, but most
Christians aren't.
Let's call this book what it is - a compilation of beliefs from bronze age goat herders. When I summarize my feelings towards the bible I usually
narrow it down to the three major disagreements i have with it - the way the bible talks about women, the way it talks about children, and the way it
talks about homosexuals.
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Today, I believe in God with all my heart and soul. After what Cristina and I went through last year, that belief today is only stronger.
Hi Ron
Thank you for your intelligent, thoughtful post. You raise an issue that has confounded me for years, and perhaps you can shed some light on it.
In the aftermath of horrible experiences like you and Cristina went through last year, and after virtually every natural disaster (flood, fire,
tornado, hurricane, earthquake, etc.), someone always seems to state, as you did, with all sincerity and gratitude, the fact that he/she was spared
has somehow strengthened their belief in god (“…god was looking out for me…there is a god”, something like that). That is stated in spite of the fact
that god in its mercy allowed the horrible event to happen in the first place, suggesting that god, if it exists, is either impotent or evil, rather
than loving and caring. If god allows a horrible thing to occur in the first place, why would he/she/it give a damn who survived and who didn’t?
Perhaps you could shed some light on this, since you went through it. It seems to me that when a terrible thing happens to a person, and they
survive, logically it should cause one to doubt the existence of some loving and caring god, rather than strengthen the belief.
Please know, Ron, that I am not arguing with you or criticizing you in any way. You are one of my Nomad friends and I have great respect for you and
what you have done for others in need. But I need to know this.
I have been of necessity had to deal with this issue in my practice as I have worked with many people who have had the sort of experience Ron has so
generously shared with us. I have both read and heard many accounts of near and death experiences. Many are profoundly changed by these experiences.
These experiences are common, though not universal. By using the term common I don't mean in any way to discount their significance.
In another post on "higher power and AA" I cite the literature on Psychedelic transcendent experiences in the treatment of addiction. I think you will
find that literature fascinating when considering this issue.
What Ron is describing is an EXPERIENCE, not an intellectual awareness, though intellectual integration is necessary following an experience like
this. These experiences are often integrated and discussed in "spiritual" contexts, we simply have no other context in which to do so. Our language
and "normal" experience does not for most include experiences like this.
It is interesting to note that Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert, both PhD Psychologists at Harvard, working on the MMPI, the most reliable and most
used Psychological test we have, took LSD and it changed their lives. I think it is interesting to note HOW it changed their lives.
Leary was a good Catholic boy who did it all right, in a very tightly bound Irish Catholic way, took LSD and went counter script "Tune in, Turn on and
Drop out". He then lived the rest of his life in essentially a rebellion against his rather rigid, controlled, contrived upbringing.
Now Alpert on the other hand said to himself after taking LDS...hmmm... these are experiences that we have no context to integrate (he could have
talked to a Native American shaman and got some insight) so I'll go to India where I know they have had thousands of years of experience with these
matters. He went to ashram after ashram before spending a lengthy stay with a guru. He decided after this experience to come back to America and work
with dying people, as they had in his view the most immediate possibility of full aliveness as they faced their death. He was instrumental in the
development of the hospice movement.
Some religious scholars have concluded that Jesus took psychedelic mushrooms with hermit monks during his sojourn into the desert. This bastard son,
the son of Mary, a most lowly and despised status in his time, returned from his enlightenment to proclaim "there is a father in heaven and he loves
you". Again one sees the interplay between personal psychology and religious experience.
The Buddha was a Prince, son of a very rich and powerful ruler. He secrets himself out of his fathers castle, with its fine food, harem etc. and
discovers that there is poverty and suffering in the world. He sets out to right this, no doubt feeling a powerful sense of guilt over the matter. He
meditates and after his enlightenment proclaims the following "noble truths" which I paraphrase "There is suffering in the world" and "One can
overcome suffering thru meditation". Again one sees the interplay between personal psychology and religious experience.
So on the level of personal "religious" experience there is in my view no way of separating them from our own personal psychology. In saying this I am
in no way discounting the experiences nor the conclusions that people derive from these experiences, I am only pointing out that these experiences
exist in a context that is part of how they are integrated. The bone in our own nose is the hardest to see as my Anthropologist brother is want to
say.
Iflyfish
An aspiring Hindu goes to his guru for spiritual help...after some time the young man attains the stage of enlightenment that he is "also" God. Wow,
he thinks, I'm God! Full of it, he proudly walks down the main street in town...some distance away down the street a man on on elephant is coming
towards him...the young aspirant thinks to himself that now that he is God the man on the elephant can very well just get out of his way...they get
nearer and nearer to each other and finally the elephant rider is yelling at the intern to get out of the way but he doesn't step aside and gets badly
trampled by the elephant. Bruised and battered the intern makes his way back to the guru and tells him the story about the elephant. The aspirant
explains his confusion as to why the elephant didn't get out of his way, now that he was God...the guru replies----the rider on the elephant is God
too!
Always like that parable---but yes since God is as much a part of us as anything else (I'm speaking in metaphor here) its not surprising that our own
psychologies are integral to the experience, at least in part.
Thank-you for your insights Ifly--nice!
To equate this parable with my experience is demeaning and erroneous. This is exactly why I should have followed my initial gut instinct to avoid
posting at all in this thread. Have a nice day...
Sorry Ron---I was responding to Ifly's insights about Leary, et al---should have taken you out of the quote, sorry for being lazy, I wasn't meaning to
comment on your beliefs at all. My bad.
Originally posted by ateo
To throw out the Old Testament is to throw out the creation story, Adam and Eve, Noah and the flood, and a whole lot more. I'm fine with it, but most
Christians aren't.
Let's call this book what it is - a compilation of beliefs from bronze age goat herders. When I summarize my feelings towards the bible I usually
narrow it down to the three major disagreements i have with it - the way the bible talks about women, the way it talks about children, and the way it
talks about homosexuals.
How about slavery?
Ok, I'll add slavery. It's now my four major disagreements......just trying to keep the list short and to be honest I'm tired of hearing the
apologists rebuttal of "oh it wasn't THAT type of slavery, it was different times back then....."
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
As I understand it god is a concept that is derived from spirituality. Perhaps some day you will conceive of a god in your musings about evolution.
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
As I understand it god is a concept that is derived from spirituality. Perhaps some day you will conceive of a god in your musings about evolution.
Don't hold your breath amigo
Yeah, evolution ain't god..........there's actually evidence for evolution!
I never said that Christians don't believe in the bible.
Not a big deal Igor but here's your direct quote:
"But, Ken, no christian believes in any of this these days."
Ken, I was referring to your statement which you ommited from the above quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Bondy
The major turning point in my path towards atheism, however, came when I actually sat down and read the bible, cover to cover, discovering that it was
a vicious, evil and repulsive book, full of genocide and slaughter, telling me that I should keep slaves, kill anyone who works on weekends, kill
anyone who believes in some other imaginary god, and that virgin women who are raped must marry their rapist (I’m not kidding, it’s in Deuteronomy
22:28-29). I was astonished to read that the creator of the universe got peeed at humanity (which he/she allegedly created in the first place), and
killed everyone (except one breeding pair from each species) in a great flood, including innocent children. Religious people thought all that really
happened, and that somehow it was aall good thing. I started to wonder if all the people who had been telling me how great the bible was had ever
actually read it.
But, Ken, no christian believes in any of this these days.
I never said that Christians don't believe in the bible.
Not a big deal Igor but here's your direct quote:
"But, Ken, no christian believes in any of this these days."
Ken, I was referring to your statement which you ommited from the above quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Bondy
The major turning point in my path towards atheism, however, came when I actually sat down and read the bible, cover to cover, discovering that it was
a vicious, evil and repulsive book, full of genocide and slaughter, telling me that I should keep slaves, kill anyone who works on weekends, kill
anyone who believes in some other imaginary god, and that virgin women who are raped must marry their rapist (I’m not kidding, it’s in Deuteronomy
22:28-29). I was astonished to read that the creator of the universe got peeed at humanity (which he/she allegedly created in the first place), and
killed everyone (except one breeding pair from each species) in a great flood, including innocent children. Religious people thought all that really
happened, and that somehow it was aall good thing. I started to wonder if all the people who had been telling me how great the bible was had ever
actually read it.
But, Ken, no christian believes in any of this these days.
I get it. I thought you were referring to the bible in general, sorry!
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Today, I believe in God with all my heart and soul. After what Cristina and I went through last year, that belief today is only stronger.
Hi Ron
Thank you for your intelligent, thoughtful post. You raise an issue that has confounded me for years, and perhaps you can shed some light on it.
In the aftermath of horrible experiences like you and Cristina went through last year, and after virtually every natural disaster (flood, fire,
tornado, hurricane, earthquake, etc.), someone always seems to state, as you did, with all sincerity and gratitude, the fact that he/she was spared
has somehow strengthened their belief in god (“…god was looking out for me…there is a god”, something like that). That is stated in spite of the fact
that god in its mercy allowed the horrible event to happen in the first place, suggesting that god, if it exists, is either impotent or evil, rather
than loving and caring. If god allows a horrible thing to occur in the first place, why would he/she/it give a damn who survived and who didn’t?
Perhaps you could shed some light on this, since you went through it. It seems to me that when a terrible thing happens to a person, and they
survive, logically it should cause one to doubt the existence of some loving and caring god, rather than strengthen the belief.
Please know, Ron, that I am not arguing with you or criticizing you in any way. You are one of my Nomad friends and I have great respect for you and
what you have done for others in need. But I need to know this.
I have been of necessity had to deal with this issue in my practice as I have worked with many people who have had the sort of experience Ron has so
generously shared with us. I have both read and heard many accounts of near and death experiences. Many are profoundly changed by these experiences.
These experiences are common, though not universal. By using the term common I don't mean in any way to discount their significance.
In another post on "higher power and AA" I cite the literature on Psychedelic transcendent experiences in the treatment of addiction. I think you will
find that literature fascinating when considering this issue.
What Ron is describing is an EXPERIENCE, not an intellectual awareness, though intellectual integration is necessary following an experience like
this. These experiences are often integrated and discussed in "spiritual" contexts, we simply have no other context in which to do so. Our language
and "normal" experience does not for most include experiences like this.
It is interesting to note that Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert, both PhD Psychologists at Harvard, working on the MMPI, the most reliable and most
used Psychological test we have, took LSD and it changed their lives. I think it is interesting to note HOW it changed their lives.
Leary was a good Catholic boy who did it all right, in a very tightly bound Irish Catholic way, took LSD and went counter script "Tune in, Turn on and
Drop out". He then lived the rest of his life in essentially a rebellion against his rather rigid, controlled, contrived upbringing.
Now Alpert on the other hand said to himself after taking LDS...hmmm... these are experiences that we have no context to integrate (he could have
talked to a Native American shaman and got some insight) so I'll go to India where I know they have had thousands of years of experience with these
matters. He went to ashram after ashram before spending a lengthy stay with a guru. He decided after this experience to come back to America and work
with dying people, as they had in his view the most immediate possibility of full aliveness as they faced their death. He was instrumental in the
development of the hospice movement.
Some religious scholars have concluded that Jesus took psychedelic mushrooms with hermit monks during his sojourn into the desert. This bastard son,
the son of Mary, a most lowly and despised status in his time, returned from his enlightenment to proclaim "there is a father in heaven and he loves
you". Again one sees the interplay between personal psychology and religious experience.
The Buddha was a Prince, son of a very rich and powerful ruler. He secrets himself out of his fathers castle, with its fine food, harem etc. and
discovers that there is poverty and suffering in the world. He sets out to right this, no doubt feeling a powerful sense of guilt over the matter. He
meditates and after his enlightenment proclaims the following "noble truths" which I paraphrase "There is suffering in the world" and "One can
overcome suffering thru meditation". Again one sees the interplay between personal psychology and religious experience.
So on the level of personal "religious" experience there is in my view no way of separating them from our own personal psychology. In saying this I am
in no way discounting the experiences nor the conclusions that people derive from these experiences, I am only pointing out that these experiences
exist in a context that is part of how they are integrated. The bone in our own nose is the hardest to see as my Anthropologist brother is want to
say.
Iflyfish
An aspiring Hindu goes to his guru for spiritual help...after some time the young man attains the stage of enlightenment that he is "also" God. Wow,
he thinks, I'm God! Full of it, he proudly walks down the main street in town...some distance away down the street a man on on elephant is coming
towards him...the young aspirant thinks to himself that now that he is God the man on the elephant can very well just get out of his way...they get
nearer and nearer to each other and finally the elephant rider is yelling at the intern to get out of the way but he doesn't step aside and gets badly
trampled by the elephant. Bruised and battered the intern makes his way back to the guru and tells him the story about the elephant. The aspirant
explains his confusion as to why the elephant didn't get out of his way, now that he was God...the guru replies----the rider on the elephant is God
too!
Always like that parable---but yes since God is as much a part of us as anything else (I'm speaking in metaphor here) its not surprising that our own
psychologies are integral to the experience, at least in part.
Thank-you for your insights Ifly--nice!
To equate this parable with my experience is demeaning and erroneous. This is exactly why I should have followed my initial gut instinct to avoid
posting at all in this thread. Have a nice day...
I don't discount the real life experiences of people. I in no way meant to discount what you shared of your experience. I have heard too many stories
not to have an open mind about these things. My point is that our experiences are integrated by us using the language, culture and understanding that
we have. Most people discuss these experiences using "spiritual" terms. There is a remarkable similarity between stories recorded by people with death
and near death experiences. I too have experienced going thru a tunnel toward the light, a common experience. I have not met anyone greeting me as
others report. Some people have no memory at all of their death/near death experiences. It is often very hard for people to share these experiences
with people who do not or cannot understand the significance of these experiences to them. Many people come to religion thru profound experiences that
rock their world.
I sincerely apologize to you if I said posted anything that could be read as discounting your very personal and profound experience. All of my words
could not change what you experienced and I would never wish to do so. Indeed I would be very interested in learning more about his experience, though
I doubt that this thread is the place to do so. There are more things under heaven and earth than are dreamed of in our philosophies, I believe that.
I am as open to hearing and genuinely listening to your experience as I am to a well presented presentation on string or parallel universe
presentations. The difference is that you had a genuine experience and for you this is not speculation!
Cypress, those special needs have been for glasses for some kids and adults that needed them, to help coversome burial expenses for some members that
did not have enough, clothes for some members that were homeless but we helped get into housing so they could go out for job searches, sometimes when
our members kids graduate high school and they are going to our church we get them something from the local christian church store. A number of
things like this could come into special needs as we have even helped in medical supplies for members when needed. The church board has to vote on
all of these before a dime can be used.
Take Care & Travel Safe---"No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777
I once raised my hand in 8th grade an asked sister Mary Clarenita if it's true that there had once been a female pope. It infuriated her. I know what
you're thinking, Ken: Igor, you haven't changed a bit.
Our thread also prompted me to rent Elmer Gantry last night and I learned about American Revivalism. No doubt about it. Those meetings must've been a
lot of fun. Even rivaled shari's parties.
Cmon McFez....there was an appropriate wake and memorial held in the first handful of postings for our dearly departed Skeet! (and perhaps a much more
better sendoff than I will receive when it is my time to pass on).
Then as usual the thread veered into some personal exhanges and eventually into the obligatory choice of either political, religious, sexual innuendo,
booze, David K, Toyota v. Ford, Chevy, VW, dirt, asphalt, mileage left on unpaved part of Gonzaga trail, destruction of Baja's hidden secrets, who
caught the latest biggest fish hidden in a supposed informative offering of updating the conditions for those who are following behind with their
latest fish kill equipment or recipe (I have some McFez bate festering in my garage right now!), and of course the never to missed pointing out by
someone who actually remembers...were this all started.
Now can we move on into the morphed thread of 'how many ways does a thread veer from it's point of origin'?
Because Inevitably someone will find my list lacking somewhere.
"If it were lush and rich, one could understand the pull, but it is fierce and hostile and sullen.
The stone mountains pile up to the sky and there is little fresh water. But we know we must go back
if we live, and we don't know why." - Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." - Theodore Roosevelt
"You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them or to them." - Malcolm Forbes
"Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others
cry over small hurts, but not you. Let others leave their future in someone else's hands, but not you." - Jim Rohn
"The best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer." - Cunningham's Law
Thankyou to Baja Bound
Mexico InsuranceServices for your long-term support of the BajaNomad.com Forums site.
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