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OLDFEZZYWIG
Junior Nomad
Posts: 40
Registered: 8-7-2004
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"here and started, or actually doing something to repair the country that has really gone to sh-t. You live in it."
I noticed 3 million americans trying to sneak over the border into Mexico every year ****** .
[Edited on 6-27-2005 by BajaNomad]
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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big fish, big house, big appetite
My fear is one of the past realities in the U.S. Everyone trying to outdo the other. Especially the wealthy extremists. Result: a screwed up
environment and a list of extinct animals to go with it. But hey, your grandkids could brag about it.
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gonetobaja
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Registered: 1-4-2004
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Well just got back from the south and saw the response.
Sharksbaja, by the shallows I mean between 2 and 40 feet. In gonzaga bay right in front of Alfonsinas we were catching squid by hand that were
between 1ft and 3ft. They were in schools of 20 or so and were crusing the shoreline. I dont know what they where looking for but I could stand in
the water and a squid would swim right up to me and I grabbed it by the head. We have all of that footage on video. The grouper where in the 2-40ft
range. There was a huge school of bait about 4-6inches long and the grouper school was charging into them. It was amazing. I was suprised acutualy
when the squid came out of the grouper. It was about 1ft of body with the tentacles already digested off. It stank like,...well....half rotted
digesting squid.
MC, The only business of mine you need to know is that its gonna cost you $700.00 for 4 days.....and that Im the best fu#$ing Spearfishing guide that
runs out of Gonzaga. And *********************************************! Or you can check out my website mr chuck at http://www.gonetobaja.com. And no, you cant book a trip.
How do I make my money in the states? http://www.spearfishingvideos.com I sell videos. Yes a shameless plug but you asked for it. Yep thats right Im gonna teach the whole world how
to freedive spearfish. Its easy and fun, and you get to put fresh fish on the table.
Well what now? Im gonna sharpen my speartips and head down to Gonzaga bay on the 12th of June. Im the one staring at the sea sitting on the beach.
Im gonna bring more video equipment and video the whole thing, again. Then we are going to produce a video that shows the two expeiditons so everyone
can see what Im talking about.
Pascuale, I shot my first grouper at the islands when you where 4. I dont know why you keep talking about caves. Only about 20% of the fish I have
shoot over the years have been in caves. The majority have been shot while swimming around on patrol for food. They try to find a cave after they
have been shot. I have been selective harvesting fish from the islands for years and go back to the same spots and get the same fish. In addition
there are sport fishing boats that leave from San Felipe and fish the same spots that I do. Over the years the catch has been consistant with only
the loss of Totuaba(which are rebounding) from netting being the change. The real problem is the netting. I saw this weekend fishermen unloading and
about 80%of the catch was sharks. all of them 3-5feet . Hammerheads and silky sharks. They were all sold. The catch from the panga was about 40
sharks, and a few reef fish.
check out this recent fish count
http://www.sanfelipe.com.mx/fishing/2005_reports/JA050805pic...
Oh yea, while I was getting out of the water after a nice 2 hr freedive hunitng trip where I shot nothing I found a nice 20ft piece of braided mono
hooked to a wire leader connected to a chrome and red crocodile spoon stuck in the rocks
Yes I worked it loose and disposed of it. Also a 3x4 piece of Poly net showed up on my beach in puertecitos. Nothing dead in it luckly.
When you freedive, shooting up all of the breeding population of groupers I dont think is possible. Its the more devistating combination of over
netting combined with fishermen droping live squid on 150lb test to 200ft and hog hauling up the big mammas. Freedivers are among the most
respectfull and understanding patrons of the ocean. Also the natural depth of the grouper population makes it very difficult to effectively dent
while freediving. A person on SCUBA gear at night with a light and a speargun is a complete different story. Thats poaching, and thats a whole
different problem.
Freedive spearfishing is the only manner in which a person can harvest a selected fish from the ocean without harming any other marine life. The
freedive spearfisher can make a concious decision when they see the fish if they want to take it or not. They know what type and size. They have no
tanks so the fish has all of the advantages. The freediver only gets one shot a a time by a rubber band powered speargun. Any other way you get
seafood from the ocean you are going to harm something else.
People dont like to hear me say that but its true.
However, I would never tell someone what type of fish to catch, and how to catch it. I leave that up to the goverment. People who tell other people
how to live should have a carburator shoved up their illigetimatem just like mike said.
JR, I didnt know you sold bamboo funiture, I got one for ya. Its a bamboo cage with a sliding front door on it. You put a corona with a lime inside
and call it a "tourist trap"
Sure seems to be alot of uptight stress lovers around baja lately, saw a bunch of them walk out of my friends resturant this weekend because the order
was taking too long..."I ordered the camarone asados and you sent me shrimp, now dammit I know what I ordered and this is inexcuseable!!"
Im gonna go thaw out some grouper fillets for tomorrow....now wheres that pacifico......
GTB
[Edited on 6-27-2005 by BajaNomad]
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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My God , a person who tells it as he see it....and truthfully at that. I am certainly no expert but I will have to concur on most points. I understand
that female groupers unlike most sharks reproduce at an early age. I would think that during this period most respectful spearers would have mercy on
the "mamas grandes".
The shark problem on the other hand is much more complex. The ordinary pangrero has no idea he is threatening his livelyhood and it won't take
generations to witness. The use of gillnets set in areas of large concentrations of shark populations will have a negative impact locally as other
apex predators fill the void. This imbalance although controversial can signal the increase of other predator fish as well. The squid in shallow water
seems strange although I have seen the large Humboldt variety in years past left high and dry on the rocks near L.A. a few times.
Whistler might have some good info on Baja squid behavior and habits.
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pascuale
Nomad
Posts: 224
Registered: 2-20-2005
Location: Somewhere South
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Mood: Lets fish!
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GTB
Thats cool man, from your site it seems that you spend most of your time right below Puertecitos, not Gonzaga. As it looks from your website, you cant
********** and you havent shot much either so I would guess that you havent been going to Gonzaga for long because I have never seen or heard of you
there. Bottom line, I simply have my opinion and I can express it on the World wide web if I F*&^ing want to. Why? Because i dont want a bunch of
idiots shooting grouper in Gonzaga or anywhere, thats why! Sure man, post pics of big fish and all the people who dont know how scarce they are are
gonna say, "Cool thats awesome". They dont know how fragile the grouper population is and how slow they grow, and what you are doing by showing that
is saying that its ok to do. I simply dont agree. Peace. Oh and by the way, I shot one 28lb and one 29lb leapard grouper in 1 day without a boat off
the beach. Unofficial world record I guess, but who F&*%in cares, that means nothing to me.
http://www.mexfish.com/mfn/mfn2004/mfn040920/mfn040920.htm
[Edited on 5-31-2005 by pascuale]
[Edited on 6-27-2005 by BajaNomad]
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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4863
Registered: 2-2-2003
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Pascuale
Sounds like yer saying that it's ok for you to shoot fish but nobody else can? Or just talking about it and showing pictures is bad? Or what exactly
are you saying?
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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4863
Registered: 2-2-2003
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Mike Odell
"First of all, you ruminate about the American community in
this area, to the degree we will no longer tolerate your
attitude."
Well Sr.Odell, that is a crock of dung! I understand you have been a builder down here for some time. We have mutual acquaintances and for you to
pretend that there is just the one american community going on, you must not get out much.
How many different neuter and spade brigades does LB have now? That's because you can't even get along with yourselves.
I do hear you are a good builder though so I'm not going to argue with you about what's really none of your business.
Unless of course you are somehow now a part of Mexican Immigration as well as a construction worker.
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pascuale
Nomad
Posts: 224
Registered: 2-20-2005
Location: Somewhere South
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Mood: Lets fish!
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Like I said most people dont have a clue. JR Baja, Cabrilla reproduce and grow faster than gulf grouper, sawtail grouper, or black seabass. Those fish
I shot are cabrilla or leapard grouper. I do shoot fish but not endangered ones. I was simply proving that Im not just some guy who voices his opinion
and doesnt have the credentials to do it. Either way, GTB will continue his missions to Gonzaga and i hope he has a good time. The point of this post
was to hopefully sway him from shooting any more grouper and teaching hios customers the same thing. I am just concerned that is all.
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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4863
Registered: 2-2-2003
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Seems fair enough to me!
Peoples opinions are a big part of how I form some of my own!
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gonetobaja
Nomad
Posts: 286
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Pascuale your pic dosent give you any backup for anything. Its a pic of you with two shot fish. Its good to hear you dont shoot endangered fish, are
you implying that I do? Where are these credentials you speak of? What are the endangered fish you speak of? Gulf Grouper? Here is a link on that
fish
http://www.mexfish.com/fish/ggroup/ggroup.htm
The Gulf grouper may not be swarming all over like the easy to shoot Cabrilla in your pic but it dosent mean they are endangered. In fact I have
heard nothing about Gulf grouper or any of the species you speak of as endangered in Baja. As you know there is no SCUBA spearing in Baja. There are
still Big Black Sea bass and Grouper in Baja. In California it is another story. People on tanks could sit on the bottom and wait for them to come
into range and they are now protected in American waters as a result. The policy of Mexico as you know is to only allow spearfishing while
freediving, which in my opinion has led to the continued abundance of these types of fish in the pacific and sea of cortez. If there was a real
problem with the Gulf Grouper population they would be protected like the Totuaba in my area. But as it stands the Gulf Grouper is a staple food fish
of baja. I dont hold the opinion that the mexican authorities are completely incapable. Although I would agree that some policies could use some
work.
Maybe if you could give us something other than your opinion that Gulf Grouper are endangered, or tell us you are a college taught fishologist or
something.....
Is any type of Gulf grouper harvest in your opinon bad? Or is it just me shooting them in the Gonzaga bay area? Do you feel the same way about every
person that hooks a grouper on a hook and line? If you could give me some reason that I should stop harvesting this type of fish other than the fact
that you dont like it, I would give it consideration. After all we are both freediver spearfishermen wanting the same thing as far as conservation of
the ocean. However if your Endangered Gulf Grouper poplulation is just a theory than you should clear that up. I would be happy to teach my
customers not to shoot Gulf Grouper just like I tell them not to shoot Totuaba but its got to be for more reasons other than your personal opinion.
I only know that Gulf grouper are very legal to harvest in Baja. I also know that the medium size fish that we take are not the huge deep dwelling
breeders, and year after year we get the same size, and type of selective harvested Gulf and Lepoard grouper from the same spots.
Gulf Grouper are not endangered, they are just not easy to find. You have to follow the schools of sardines and birds and dive deep. You have to
know where they are at different times of the year. They are a challange to hunt while freediving. Just because I turn my customers on to quality
once in a lifetime fish dosent mean that I am short sighted, or that I kill endangered animals. It only means that Im doing my job.
Pascuale if you need something to worry about, remember
*********************************************
*********************************************.
I also hear that the japanese my start up their operation again....Its a "BIGGER" problem than the gulf grouper if ya know what I mean...(I love the
momma jokes!)
GTB
http://www.gonetobaja.com
http://www.spearfishingvideos.com
"His spearfishing knowledge seems to be true but his momma jokes are totaly out of line..."
[Edited on 6-27-2005 by BajaNomad]
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gonetobaja
I would be happy to teach my customers not to shoot Gulf Grouper just like I tell them not to shoot Totuaba but its got to be for more reasons other
than your personal opinion. |
Tell your customers not to wait for the baja grouper to reach the state of the totuaba before practicing conservation. Tell them not to wait for the
Mexican authorities to provide stricter restrictions because they are slow to act.
Anyone who has fished the cortez for over a decade or two can see these fish have greatly declined. It takes no genius to figure out that those fish
that hero is holding will take a lifetime to replace. Each looks to be over 50 yrs old.
I haven't seen a local baja grouper brought in at Loreto in 20 years. They used to be so abundant pangeros would bring some daily from the Lobos reef
off the north end of Carmen. The supply was limitless, people said. Even Ray Cannon recognized their declining numbers forty years ago when their
populations were far greater than now.
Your self imposed fish management practices at Gonzaga are subjective and self serving. Looking into a cave to see if a fish has replaced another is
not very scientific.
Regarding your arguments whether the baja grouper is an endangered species or not. Like I said - given their lifespan and their relative absence I
know there is a problem. But I googled up the species and, not surprisingly, did find them on a threatened list:
http://www.redlist.org/search/details.php?species=14049
An old friend of mine showed me his photos of the first Tony Reyes trips in the fifties. The decks were littered with large groupers. Now, they are as
scarce as hen's teeth. Most trips - nothing. Some trips - 2 or 3 perhaps. That's for a group of 25 anglers. Let's see ... if everyone followed your
management techniques (she's holding up 2 baja groupers) or the Mexican fishing regulations that would add up to 50 groupers per trip.
Do you think that's a sustainable yield?
I am not going to spend a lot of my posts on the subject (although you've been blowing a lot of smoke, e.g. fish fecundity) but I do wish to support
FishinRich's main premise on the subject - which is correct.
Why not have your customers pursue the fast growing pelagic species? I am not a spearfisherman - but why not go after the yellowtail, dorado, or tuna?
Surely they are an equally great accomplishment.
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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new pic from Kira's site:
I sure don't see the hook and line guys getting these. Guess the divers can clean out the remaining big groupers. Including "pro" divers using the
kills to promote a personal business bringing even more divers down.
These big fish are become rarities. There is a clear trend that they are disapearing. To see one, and deliberately kill it...Go dive somewhere else.
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pascuale
Nomad
Posts: 224
Registered: 2-20-2005
Location: Somewhere South
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Mood: Lets fish!
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GTB, Black seabass used to be abundant in california but were almost wiped out in the 70's by freedivers like me and you because they didnt know the
damage that they were causing, not because they were sitting on the bottom with tanks. Just like Black Seabass, grouper are not the hardest fish to
shoot. Leapard grouper take off, but Gulfys just look at you. Saying that shooting grouper doesnt effect the population is BS. I have been fishing
that area for a long time and have personally caught only a few of those fish. To say that its ok to shoot them and they are not endangered is pure
arrogance and shows your knowledge. You went to shoot a world record Leapard grouper. My photo shows two world record leapard grouper in 1 day. Did I
send anything in to get a world record? Nope, because im not spearing for word records and giant grouper. Keep it up man, I will keep protecting every
area I can for as long as I can. I believe that most people when educated about the lifespan and rarety of those big grouper, will feel the same way.
[Edited on 6-1-2005 by pascuale]
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Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3326
Registered: 12-13-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by pascuale
Just like Black Seabass, grouper are not the hardest fish to shoot. Leapard grouper take off, but Gulfys just look at you. |
They do more than just look at you. They are actually curious about you and what you are doing underwater. About 20 years ago I was on a liveaboard
dive trip on the Baja Explorador, anchored at Isla Catalan. In the afternoon, Mike Mahlstad, the late Explorador divemaster, asked my daughter Coleen
and me to accompany him to harvest some clams for the famous Explorador Clam Pizza. The three of us, Mike, Coleen, and I were kneeling on a sand
bottom in 60fsw watching Mike fill a game bag with large "chocolates". I happened to look over my shoulder, directly into the face of a very large
gulf grouper. The fish was bigger than me, about 5 ft long, and he/she must have weighed over 300 lbs. The animal was extremely curious about what
we were doing, showed no fear, and stayed with us for at least 5 minutes until, anticipating no food, slowly moved away. If we had had an interest in
killing that fish, to say it would have been easy would have been a gross understatement.
In the years I have been diving, I have watched the decline of black sea bass in Southern California waters and gulf grouper in the Sea of Cortez. As
easy as shooting both species are, I have an impression that most of the take was on hook and line, and relatively few by spearfishing. That may not
be true in So. California where I think spearfishing on scuba has always been legal, as opposed to Mexican waters where it is not legal. It is good
to see black (and white) seabass making a comeback in Southern California where they are regularly seen now.
++Ken++
[Edited on 6-1-2005 by Ken Bondy]
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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Baja Grouper fish limit
Mexico's Baja Grouper fish limit = 5
The word limit (restriction) in this case is meaningless. Nothing is being limited. The daily restriction is greater than anything you could possibly
encounter with a rod and reel in a month. PESCA is not managing these fish at all. ...not on their radar screen, I guess.
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bajaden
Nomad
Posts: 496
Registered: 4-7-2005
Location: Ensenada
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Mood: vicarious
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Wow! What a bunch of interesting posts. I learned more than I probably ever needed to know about Baja Grouper. Since Im new here and know nothing,
this will attest to your persuasive abilities. As of now I tend to come down on the side of Joe, Jr, and Pascaule. I will say this however. I have
never convinced anyone of anything by attacking them. They will immediately go on the defensive and attack back. I realize that some of you have very
strong feelings about this subject and rightly so. The only advice I would give, is that it is better to recruit than to antagonize. By the way, I
don't think the fish really cares whether the person who kills it is a Mexican or a Gringo.
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Mexico's Baja Grouper fish limit = 5
The word limit (restriction) in this case is meaningless. Nothing is being limited. The daily restriction is greater than anything you could possibly
encounter with a rod and reel in a month. PESCA is not managing these fish at all. ...not on their radar screen, I guess. |
And what exactly do they manage and how? Since the navy is in charge of enforcing fishing violations, I am curious as to thier presence or lack
thereof. Especially in the Northern reaches of the Sea of Cortes where there is a considerably lower number of fish seeking people. Of course if the
Nautical Ladder comes to fruition the problem will be exacerbated 100 fold.
I am aware of the focus on turtles, some sailfish and whales, but I am afraid for the most part that game fish and sharks take a back seat in
importance and relevance.
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pascuale
Nomad
Posts: 224
Registered: 2-20-2005
Location: Somewhere South
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Mood: Lets fish!
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Id have to agree with you bajaden. I do have strong feelings about this subject because I really want my children to experience what I have. I also
agree in that it is better to recruit than attack, sorry for any attacks I may have made during this post, to GTB and anyone else. We all would like
to see more fish right, and protectr the ones we have, but still kill a few here and there!
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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Shaksbaja
| Quote: |
I am aware of the focus on turtles, some sailfish and whales, but I am afraid for the most part that game fish and sharks take a back seat in
importance and relevance. |
Like yourself, I thought sharks were off the list - but they are regulated. Here's the list of targeted species:
Marlin, Sailfish, Swordfish and Shark - one per day
Dorado, Roosterfish, Shad, or Tarpon - two per day
I don't know much about sharks. I even thought your quiz was too hard. But, somehow, someone has convinced someone that they need protection.
What's interesting about this list is that it seems to target the glamorous sportfish. Taken further, it seems that the fish tourists catch have a
restriction on them. All others, fall into the general category of 5 per day.
My guess is that these fish limits are not based upon any calculations of fish stocks or any assessment or projection of how the fishing restrictions
will affect them. They're simply based upon an outcry of the sportfishing industry that's concerned about losing it's customer base.
You're right Sharksbaja. Their department of fisheries is pretty pathetic. There's basically no management going on at all.
You almost can't blame the guys getting these monster groupers. You figure - if you're following regulations then what's the problem. You assume that
the authorities in charge are providing guidance to maintain a fishery. After all, that's their job.
skipjack
[Edited on 6-2-2005 by Skipjack Joe]
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
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No mo big ones where I grew up
Bravo Karl! I grew up catching BIG calicos off P.V. where I grew up. Along with all the other awesome seafood I can remember giant Black abs Green
abs, schools of big bass, gigantic bugs, huge rock scallops and halibut 50 yds offshore. YES! I remember. Sad, the last couple yrs I fished the same
area in the late 80s and yielded nada. My hope is for recovery of the bait fish in So. Cal. and the predator fish returning. I have heard positive
results are slowly being realized but 50 yrs of abuse and 30 yrs of recovery and I can say it will take decades more. A big fear shared amongst many
of us is insatiable appetite of "The weekend warrior" of which I have seen plenty.
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