| Pages:
1
2
3
4 |
Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Medina
...As one of the other posters said "progress is inevitable". We can all debate if building houses,golf courses, hotels etc is progress. However, in
many parts if the world the only means of providing work for the local population is through tourism development... |
Tourism is not being promoted here to provide work for the local people of Baja. You do not plan to build 10-20 thousand rooms (or more) to provide
jobs for a community with a population of 12,000.
|
|
|
fdt
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4059
Registered: 9-7-2003
Location: Tijuana, Baja California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Yeah, what if it all goes right
|
|
IMHMO the way I see it is that there have been numerous attempts to build all over the peninsula, from the missionaries to present day, about 500
years worth and the water factor seems to be a comon denominator always. I like watching a program on PBS called California's Gold and they did a hole
series of programs about water in California and the importance of it for the survival of the worlds 5th largest economy. I am amazed to see all of
the different ways that California has to get water from, by having hughe dams and reservoirs, using water from snow in the sierras and so on and so
on and of course the Colorado River. From what I know, we here in Baja California don't have all that, so maybe in the future there will be explorers
of Baja looking for ruins of Loreto Bay, Paraiso del Mar, etc, etc? Maybe even lost cities like looking now for lost missions? 
http://www.calgold.com/water/
A well informed Baja California traveler is a smart Baja California traveler!
|
|
|
flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: gone fishin'
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by Oso
Desalinazation plants? Yeah, right... |
I'm involved with two developments on the West coast of Baja. Desal will be used for both. It's proven technology that works.
Where you put the brine is a legitimate concern, though. |
Desal will KILL the surrounding seas. Desal on the west side of the peninsula can discharge waste into "open ocean" but the Sea of Cortez is
prectically an inland sea. Desal plants shuld not be allowed as an option to produce freshwater in this area. I see the only viable alternative
would be to build a desal plant away from the limits of Mag Bay and pipe the water to Loreto. Of course that would cost mucho dinero so won't be
likely. I'm still translatin'
|
|
|
djh
Senior Nomad
Posts: 936
Registered: 1-2-2005
Location: Earth mostly. Loreto, N. ID, Big Island
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mellow fellow, plays a yellow cello...
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Medina
This inevitably means building houses etc. There is nothing wrong with this so long as the infrastructure can support the development planned and
there are tight controls on the density and scale of the new build. |
Which is prety much what we ALL worry about... There is NOT adequate infrastructure even for LBC ! (You can already see the impacts in and around
Loreto.)
And... "Planning and controls" ? Que ?
Good discussion...
This place we all love will change over time, no doubt. We ALL simply hope to save what we love about it from the bulldozers... and hordes.
Its all just stuff and some numbers.
A day spent sailing isn\'t deducted from one\'s life.
Peace, Love, and Music
|
|
|
Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
Member Is Offline
|
|
I don't know whether to laugh or cry
I guess both. Many Nomads understand my take , when they heard me years back.
Successful capitalism doesn't necessarily translate to livability for the casualties of development.
Wal-Mart for example up till recently marched into any community and forever changed the dynamics of the surrounding area both finacially and
demographically. It can't help but happen if the green light is on and populations swell.
To them and LBC it's really all about the bottom line. When it isn't profitable anymore because of infrastructure they will move on to greener
pastures. Hey, it's what they do.
Corporate spin is a machine. It has dollars hanging from it. When this attractive machine is placed in front of a suitable target it performs
fantastically. It sways public opinion. It cozies up to officials and it reaches out to John Q.
It is a cryin' shame that the machine is more important than the host it is placed upon. People are naive and want to think rainbows and kumbaya. A
load of crap. They want their stupid condos, boutiques and the "authentic" restaurants that the machine creates.
Ignorant and greedy govt and corporations sleep together to create these machines of income. How do you put a plug in it, or rather how do you
unplug, that machine?
Pam, yer a good woman with a lot of guts. Mucho suerte
Don, you speak clearly and precisely, thanks.
Just read it again. I'll just cry.
[Edited on 3-2-2007 by Sharksbaja]
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
|
|
|
Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
Desal will KILL the surrounding seas. Desal on the west side of the peninsula can discharge waste into "open ocean" but the Sea of Cortez is
prectically an inland sea. Desal plants shuld not be allowed as an option to produce freshwater in this area. I see the only viable alternative
would be to build a desal plant away from the limits of Mag Bay and pipe the water to Loreto. Of course that would cost mucho dinero so won't be
likely. I'm still translatin' |
There are other options. The most economical would be disposal wells. Salt could be harvested, also.
Eventually, desal won't be an option but a necessity...most everywhere.
|
|
|
Oso
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2637
Registered: 8-29-2003
Location: on da border
Member Is Offline
Mood: wait and see
|
|
Just curious, salt is harvested from the sea in drying beds at GN. What detail is it that prevents the brine from desal plants being dried and
harvested in the same manner?
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
|
|
|
flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: gone fishin'
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Oso
Just curious, salt is harvested from the sea in drying beds at GN. What detail is it that prevents the brine from desal plants being dried and
harvested in the same manner? |
My guess would be level of toxicity is too high (I'll look into this). If it could be done it already would be being done. I guess the price or
winter road salt up in the snow country ought to come down.
|
|
|
Alan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1626
Registered: 4-6-2005
Location: Yucaipa, CA/La Paz
Member Is Offline
|
|
Let me start by admitting that I don't know the first darn thing about desal plants but was wondering... If you had a closed community like Loreto
Bay and required it be on sewers, then supply water with a desal plant and treat the sewage like they do here in the states to the point it is
actually potable. Once the water is to a safe level, recombine it with the salt that had been extracted and then return it to the sea. Due to
evaporation, landscaping use, etc. the final mix would have a bit higher concentration of salt than what was originally extracted from the sea but
evaporation goes on all day long in the ocean and even ground water eventually returns to the sea.
I'm not trying to justify Loreto Bay. I for one am very sad to see the changes in Loreto. Loreto had always been my favorite town on the peninsula
but due to the changes of the last several years I have decided to purchase elsewhere.
I have just been following threads on desalinization and always heard about the problems associated with the brine that is left. Perhaps developers
should be required to build water treatment plants that clarify twice as much water as their desal plant generate.
|
|
|
flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: gone fishin'
|
|
Well here is the "solution"; keep the brine inside Loreto Bay! That would solve our problem because everyone knows they plan on either dumping it
back into the sea, thus killng it and the livlihood of Loretanos, or dumping it off their prescious land onto someone else's. Maybe they could fill
the mineral pools in their spas with brine, or they could salt the edges of their margaritas with it or better yet they could make brine building
blocks to replace those adobes that aren't working.
|
|
|
Medina
Newbie
Posts: 6
Registered: 2-22-2007
Member Is Offline
|
|
Loreto
Hola Pam,
What's the problem with the adobe blocks? Also, any idea what happens with the extracted salt in desal plants elsewhere in the world? For example,can
it be sold or is it contaminated in the desal process.
Saludos,
Medina
|
|
|
Crusoe
Senior Nomad
Posts: 731
Registered: 10-14-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
Medina.......A number of years ago in much of the Middle East the brine was loaded into barges and shipped out to sea and dumped at various loctions
that where deemed " current friendly". In Loreto,s situation as in all of the Sea of Cotes, there are already large environmental problems with water
circulation( the sea flushing itself back into the Pacific Ocean) and big problems with high polution and disreagard by the Mexican Govt..Dept. of
Fisheries and all other suppossed ecoligical govt. agencies. The Sea of Cortes is, in all recent reports and studys, written by the best in their
fields,is slowly becoming a "Biological Desert Fast". Just another big dead body of water.One of many on this planet.The way to haul the big brine
barges out of the Sea Of Cortes, and far offshore into the Pacific,is by big ocean going tugs, and it is way to expensive for individual land
deveolpers and they could care less. It has to be a govt. funded endeavor along with using other modern and very expensive new technologies to just
sustain whats left of accectable water quality (beach quality)as we no it now.So far the Mexican Govt. has completely turned a blind eye to
environmental conditions on the Baja penenusula. They haven,t even addressed as yet their land based horrid sewer conditions.The largest richest city
of Tijuana is still dumping millions and millons of raw sewege each day into the Tijana River which dumps directly into The Pacifec Ocean ,which
disperses it up and down the coast as a very vile form of untreated human waste, resulting in closures of many California beaches to the noth,and to
the south,depositing debris so gross on beaches down the Baja coastline that it can really ruin your day. So why should people in Loreto hold out for
much help. The brine will come and so will all the people.If thats what all the people of Loreto want.Thats my 3 cents worth!!Sorry for going on.
|
|
|
Medina
Newbie
Posts: 6
Registered: 2-22-2007
Member Is Offline
|
|
Sea of Cortes/Loreto
Thanks for that Crusoe. From what you say I guess I can take the "official protection" afforded to the Sea of Cortes through its designation as a
Marine Park with a large - excuse the pun- pinch of salt! If so, how very sad. The attraction to me of the Baja peninsula was its supposedly virgin
environment. The more I look into this it is clear that certain parts are not the untainted wilderness I imagined.However, the problem of untreated
sewage being tipped into the oceans is not just confined to Baja. It still happens in Spain. In the small town where I live a sewage plant will be
built shortly. At the moment, the foul water just seeps into the ground. If they screw up the Sea of Cortes,who will want to visit,set up a small
business..etc?
Saludos,
Medina
|
|
|
bajabeachbabe
Nomad
Posts: 150
Registered: 9-11-2006
Location: Loreto,
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving life
|
|
Bajalife article
I thought I would repost the link to the Bajalife article on Loreto Bay.
http://www.bajalifemag.com/pdf/LoretoBay.pdf
It provided a very good discussion of the problems of such a large development, especially concerning the issues of water, waste and electricity.
I think it is very interesting that Loreto Bay wanted to utilize a wastewater garden system for their black and grey water but FONATUR rejected the
idea. Here is a link for how the systems can be built:
http://www.wastewatergardens.com/
Our plans for our property north of town (which currently has no water, electricity or sewer) include building such a garden, as well as solar
electricity and a personal desalination system. Even with a home desalination system, disposal of the salt is an issue. As mentioned in the
article, it may be possible to pump the salt underground so that it will not be directly pumped back into the sea.
The article mentions that Loreto Bay plans to build a wind farm, and we looked into wind power generation for our house. You would think with all the
wind in Loreto that wind power might work, but actually our calculations found that wind generation would be costlier and produce less power than
solar.
I really wonder where all the water is going to come from, not only for Loreto Bay, but for the Ensenada Blanca resort and Golden Beach, which I think
is at Puerto Escondido.
My only hope is that the town that my husband and I fell in love with, will still have the same "heart" when we can finally call it home. I know that
the face of Loreto will be changing, but it is the soul of the town that I hope will be preserved.
|
|
|
Paula
Super Nomad
Posts: 2219
Registered: 1-5-2006
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
|
|
Bajabeachbabe, I don't understand how putting the salt into the ground could be a good way to dispose of it. Unless it is contained, it is going into
the water table, and increasing the salinity of the ground water. Sometimes spinach or chard from Constitucion tastes salty even without the
addition of salt in preparation, and I think that this may be due to saline seep into the water table as huge amounts of water are pumped out for
irrigation. I just don't see any alternative to maintaining a balance of the amount of water used and the amount replenished. That said, I sure hope
I'm wrong.
|
|
|
Medina
Newbie
Posts: 6
Registered: 2-22-2007
Member Is Offline
|
|
Loreto Bay Development
Hole Baja Beach Babe,
Many thanks for the links. The article on sustainable development and the LB project is thought provoking.
The weakness of the adobe blocks vis a vis humidity is pretty startling. Seaside locations, anywhere in the world, are hard on building materials. You
would have thought the developer would have sussed this out.
Will be interesting to see how all of this pans out.
On a more philosophical note, I wonder if the human species will ever
manage to devise a model of economic growth which balances the need for profit with the need to protect our environment. I have recently read Diamond
Jareds book "Collapse" which narrates and analyses the failure of civilisations. Easter Island is a classic example of our species
laying waste to the local environment and destroying their society in the process. I am not suggesting this will happen in Baja but it serves as an
example of what can occur when the economic demands of mankind hinder and eventually consume the regenerative processes of the natural world.
I guess the essence of the problem is in finding an equilibrium between the short term need to create profit,which pays salaries etc.,and the longer
term need to preserve the environment so that the land will continue to support human life and economic activity for future generations.However,
society is not static and the challenge is to find a balance between the competing needs of "capital" and the preservation of all that surrounds us.
In a delicate eco-system such as Baja I would have thought it much smarter,indeed obvious, to proceed on a sequential basis. In other words, do not
give approval for multiple and competing projects before you have had the opportunity to evaluate the impact of an initial (independently evaluated
and controlled) project. It's really a case of not putting all your eggs in one basket. If we screw up in the short term the game's over.
Well, that's my 2 euros worth for Sunday morning. I don't pretend to have the answers but the discussion is worth having as this is an issue in many
parts of the globe.
Now time for a cool Cruz Campo  !!
Saludos,
Medina
|
|
|
Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
Member Is Offline
|
|
In all of the desal plants in the middle east, they were never able to locate these facilities, if I understand correctly, in the dead sea or other
areas of very high salinity. Because the Sea of Cortez is open only at one end, and no longer has a large annual influx of fresh water from the
Colorado River, the salinity is already much higher than other seas. If desal byproduct or high level brine is allowed to be put back into the Sea
then we may well see the largest ecological disaster we have ever seen. The salinity levels are already in the area of 45-50 ppm which is much higher
levels than even across the peninsula in the area of Mag Bay or Abreojos. I am sure that it is going to take someone of much higher scientific
abilities to come up with the answers to those questions, but the fear that I have is that those questions are not even being asked. I am far from
being a green liberal tree hugger and find myself having some difficulty with the idea of being a Chicken Little screaming about the sky is falling,
but the very concept of limited development and primitive conditions is what brought me to Baja and it is with a great deal of sadness that I see the
insidious black cloud of development hanging over me. I live happily for 6 months of the year in a trailer with an attached palapa with only solar
for energy and water that I carry in a barrel when I need it and so far I have been able to avoid the places full of tourists like Pam described with
silver jewelry, designer clothing, and just a little too loud voices, that seem to permeate the places like Cabo and Loreto. Even though I could
afford that lifestyle, it isn't what I was really looking for. How could I trade good fishing, having pot lucks with friends, playing guitars and
singing with others on the beach in place of TV, walks in the desert, looking at the stars that go on forever because there is no other light, or
taking time to just sit and really feel the pulse of the earth. So I don't care that there are places like Loreto and Cabo, but there does not seem
to be any borders to keep the plague from spreading.
|
|
|
wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3821
Registered: 2-9-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
You all are something. A couple years ago, you couldn't (didn't, wouldn't) consider everything that is now a reality - the lies of LB (obvious from
the start), the little town that no longer is (big surprise), the threats to the environment (toldjaso 3 years ago). Are you still preaching "it's
their country?" It may not be too late - but your passivity and complacence is part of the problem.
|
|
|
Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
Member Is Offline
|
|
amen..... tho I doubt their armchair involvement would/could/will make a ripple in the pond. The (LBC)shovel speaks louder than cautionary words from
a bunch of expats..
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
|
|
|
flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: gone fishin'
|
|
sharks and wilderone so you guess we deserve that?
Do we deserve your words?
Could I or others in business here with families help being excited after years of very slow economic growth, look forward to a better financial
future than we had? I for one was happy about LB because I knew Fonatur's plan before LB came along and LB's seemed better. I and many like me were
looking forward to having income throughout the year and not only just on a seasonal basis. I'm not a retired expat, you don't even know me. Your
words are harsh but don't throw them around like that until you really know to whom you're addressing them to. So shoot me because I was looking
forward to having a little better financial situation than before after working my a$$ off literally 365 days a year and on call 24/7. I was happy
for my neighbors to have more opportunities, for my friends, so line us up and shoot us all mr "I told you so". Now we find that we were and are
being lied to. We were never told the real "plan" and now we're finding out and we're doing something about it (in this case spreading the word).
You don't know me and you don't know those in my circle who are right now doing what we can to prevent all hell from breaking loose here. What else
can we do, sit around and moan and do nothing? Leave? Post 3,000 messages on bajanomad to become a supreme nomad know it all? Why don't you come up
with some real solutions that are constructive instead of constantly criticizing? I'm all ears.
I'll be posting the translated article this evening when I can get back on the internet.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
4 |
![[*]](images/xmbforum/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
