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danaeb
Senior Nomad
Posts: 991
Registered: 11-13-2006
Location: San Diego; El Centenario
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Mood: groovy
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I'm employed by the world's third largest oil company. If you think the oil companies don't see the writing on the wall, think again. Over the last
year, they have backed off of their opposition to human-caused global warming theory and are gradually investing more and more of their oil and gas
profits in clean technologies. Ditto the large global insurers, who have seen the same writing for the last 2-3 years and consider global warming the
number one threat the the health of their industry. When you begin to have market shifts as large as this, you will have a world-wide movement.
California's global warming initiative is going to create intense competition for new green technology investment in the state.
And I would pose a question: who here doesn't recycle? That was a movement started years ago by the evil environmentalists, that is now so much a
part of our lives it's become personal as well a public policy.
As Sculpin says, "change is good."
Experience enables you to recognize a mistake every time you repeat it.
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Osprey
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Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Don, I can't speak to the TV piece but I have read dozens of articles about brand new science about the sun and the forces of the universe that are
most convincing indeed that this is a cycle the earth has seen many times (just like the many, many ice ages). We are just now gathering (every hour
of every day) data from space probes that give us new foundations upon which to base brand new scientific conclusions -- for example we have very
recently learned sunspots are giant holes in the sun. Ask yourself what force pushes in the mantle of that big furnace. For as long as we have
studied the sun we have concluded those spots were solar flares.
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Mexitron
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The earth has seen dramatic temperature fluctuation in its history...ice core samples taken from the Greenland ice cap for the last 100,000 years show
a quite variable climate--its only in the last 10,000 years that the climate has been rather benign; coincindentally, that's when the population of
man began clearing significant amounts of grazing land with fire as well as slash and burn culture--as a Caltech professor suggested--it may even be
possible that man caused this last period to moderate by increasing the relative amount of CO2. Or it may be that the benign period allowed man to
flourish. We just don't know. But if the temps are increasing due to man or not there will be consequences. Alternative fuels are competitive with
oil at the current price so why not wean ourselves off some of that oil--as has been suggested--we can become a world leader in new technologies and
make money off of it.
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Packoderm
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Posts: 2116
Registered: 11-7-2002
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If you think about it, the ozone was eaten away at the polar regions first. Perhaps these types of environmental phenomena's effects are concentrated
at the poles of our earth which would be consequential because that's where all the ice is. Apparently, even a couple of degrees increase in global
temperature could be enough to melt enough of the polar caps to result in altered thermodynamics of our oceans which then causes all kinds of effects
such as an increase in frequency, duration, and magnitude of hurricanes, and an increase in shoreline water depths which could be problematic for
people who own property along the coastal regions of Baja.
Years before the formation of radical polarization of ideologies concerning global warming, I remember scientists predicting that the warming of our
earth would result in some areas that would actually have lower temperatures due to altered marine layers. As a whole, I would lean toward practicing
caution in mankind's actions concerning the environment unless I had a vested interest to do otherwise, or if my ideologies rested on aiding those who
have such vested interests lest I appear to favor the idle rather than the industrious. There are distinct examples in our history where factions,
especially ruling and societally privileged factions, disfavor the opinion of the scientific community. This is nothing new.
Maybe as a worst case strategy, it would be prudent to invest in land that will become shore front property in the future while it is still
inexpensive because once ice reaches a melting temperature, it melts relatively rapidly from that point forward.
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bancoduo
Banned
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Registered: 10-3-2005
Location: el carcel publico mazatlan sin.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Packoderm
If you think about it, the ozone was eaten away at the polar regions first. Perhaps these types of environmental phenomena's effects are concentrated
at the poles of our earth which would be consequential because that's where all the ice is. Apparently, even a couple of degrees increase in global
temperature could be enough to melt enough of the polar caps to result in altered thermodynamics of our oceans which then causes all kinds of effects
such as an increase in frequency, duration, and magnitude of hurricanes, and an increase in shoreline water depths which could be problematic for
people who own property along the coastal regions of Baja.
Years before the formation of radical polarization of ideologies concerning global warming, I remember scientists predicting that the warming of our
earth would result in some areas that would actually have lower temperatures due to altered marine layers. As a whole, I would lean toward practicing
caution in mankind's actions concerning the environment unless I had a vested interest to do otherwise, or if my ideologies rested on aiding those who
have such vested interests lest I appear to favor the idle rather than the industrious. There are distinct examples in our history where factions,
especially ruling and societally privileged factions, disfavor the opinion of the scientific community. This is nothing new.
Maybe as a worst case strategy, it would be prudent to invest in land that will become shore front property in the future while it is still
inexpensive because once ice reaches a melting temperature, it melts relatively rapidly from that point forward. |
Check with Capt. Mike. I understand he is developing a container ship terminal and marina just outside of Phoenix. THE FUTURE IS
NOW! 
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Packoderm
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I didn't think that anybody was going to actually read all that. Thanks.
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bancoduo
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It was well worth reading. Good points.
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woody with a view
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| Quote: |
And I would pose a question: who here doesn't recycle?
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i turned 7 trashcans full of cans, plastics, and glass into $67 today.
[Edited on 4-8-2007 by woody in ob]
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bancoduo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by woody in ob
| Quote: |
And I would pose a question: who here doesn't recycle?
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i turned 7 trashcans full of cans, plastics, and glass into $67 today.
[Edited on 4-8-2007 by woody in ob] |
Typical OB. Congrats. from the armpit of the world.
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
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Anyone know if they make a Baja Hybrid? Are they able to tow your boats?
if you think "man" (you) are the cause of this Global Warming...what are you doing with all the toys you have?? get rid of em, now! ya really want it both ways don't ya? Sorry it don't work that way.
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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The Sculpin
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OK Capt. I think I get it now, and your are either trying to be funny or are clueless . It's probably the former. I think your wrong in thinking the
solution lies with an an/off switch. I can believe that "man" has a part in global warming but also not feel compelled to get rid of my "toys".
Especially if there's no available alternative. What I can do is look at my "toys" more carefully and see if I can do the same things in a different
way....and maybe even make it better (and maybe make some tidy scratch to boot)! As my momma used to say, "Don't go for perfection, go for
improvement". It's kinda like a baja rig. The more trips you take, the better you feel about the improvements you made to your rig, only to have baja
stmite you down for the dog that you are for not preparing for the most recent disaster. Hey, that's it! The solution to global warming needs to take
the same approach as improving your baja rig! We all know we'll never have the perfect baja rig, but damn...it's fun trying!!!!
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
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at 61 and all the battles I've faced in my life dealing with pseudo-environmentalists, I assure you, I am far from "clueless"...
Back in the eighties I formed an organization of over 300 members fighting the Dept of Interior/C.C.Nat'l Seashore trying to keep them from "stealing"
our beaches..long story, all bullchit! Lost it all anyway for non-scientific crap'. Lost mostly due to the lobbying power of a number of Environmental
Groups/Real Estate Tycoons.........
Wrote numerous articles, endless meetings fighting the establishment of the Florida Keys Nat'l Marine Sanctuary........"we promise we only want an
inch" another farce, another robbery of the people that actually care about the environment, the people that actually get off their asses and use
it...
Oh honey, come look at the TV, people are driving on the beaches of Cape Cod, let's send money to stop that! But dear, we've never been to Cape Cod,
we know nothing about that...Yeah, but look what Audobob says, how could they be wrong? quick Ralph, the checkbook....then please "change the
channel!"
I have a nine yr old grandaughter, born and being raised on the Cape. She will never get to see all that I have seen simply due to the phony diatribe
spewed forth by self serving phonies looking for another paycheck and pension plan...as ever, it all comes down to MONEY!
the perfect Baja rig....let the creeps get in down here and you won't being needing one anyway. good luck, I'm done! Capt George
How many battles you been in? Ever deal with the Interior Dept "Goon Squad"? Bet you don't even believe they have one. They do and they suck!
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64746
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Okay, for those of you who think man can cause (or halt) global warming, how do you explain past warming and cooling... BEFORE man was here?
How do you explain how the earth is still livable after VOLCANIC eruptions... which one can pump out MORE ozone depleting gasses than man could ever
dream of... and they have been erupting every year for eternity...???
The world may be warming or it may be cooling... it all depends on 'compared to when' in history. The world is billions of years old and we have only
been around a few thousand... and taking temperatures for a couple hundred or less... Tell me, what is normal?
Change happens... we may not like it, but don't lose your head over this silly hype.
Again, it was 30 years ago or so that the headlines said the world was going into a new ice age and they were explaing ways to warm the planet!
If you want believe it is warming (despite this year's record cold temps) and to blame CO2 or other gasses, then figure how to put a muffler on a
volcano! To say the USA isn't doing enough or paying enough or is living too well, watch out! They want to steal more of your freedom and put it in
their pocket.
New, clean technology is great... I am all for better milage vehicles and recycling... The oil companies want to take advantage of the hype and sell
'cleaner' products' to make money... It is what businesses do to stay in business... They need to do all they can since government makes 4 times or
more per gallon (via taxes) than the oil companies do.
Peace!
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
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Location: Bahia Asuncion
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Most of what we know is based upon faith. We spend 12 years of schooling accepting as fact things which hundreds of years of mankind have unraveled.
Imagine reading about Galileo's assertions in the 16th century that the earth rorates around the sun instead of the other way around. Why it's so
obvious he's wrong. Just look up and see for yourself.
Do you really think the global warming scientists aren't aware of natural global changes that occur over the centuries?
As lencho says, none of us are qualified to refute one argument or the other.
Time will tell. Things will become clearer and more obvious in the following decades. There's no need to back one side or the other. The truth will
reveal itself.
Meanwhile ... I have a sudoku to solve
[Edited on 4-9-2007 by Skipjack Joe]
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bajadogs
Super Nomad
Posts: 1064
Registered: 8-28-2006
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I side with the scientists. Thousands of scientists.
The video that inspired this thread is garbage and has been debunked by real scientists.
Move this to Off-Topic so I can say what I really think.
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Packoderm
Super Nomad
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Registered: 11-7-2002
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"Move this to Off-Topic so I can say what I really think."
But then we would get comments from only a small number of extremely polarized members. I have been impressed with the level of discussion on this
thread.
As for who to believe, I'd tend to side with the scientists who are not being spoon-fed money in order to propagate particular findings. This would
not be true science anyway.
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Taco de Baja
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I’m still waiting for the "1,000 of scientists" to tell us what caused the global warming period from 18,000 to 10,000 year ago that melted most of
the glaciers that covered what is now Canada and the United States; resulting in catastrophic seal level changes on the order of 300 feet....Can you
say coastal flooding! And did this coastal flooding wipe out the mangrove swamps? The tidal pools? The estuary nurseries?.... No!
However, All was not tea and crumpets, as this period did see mass die off of Ice Age Animals, from most continents except Africa. Why? Climate
change, of course.
Imagine, climate changing, sea level rising, some animals becoming extinct, ecosystems altering, all without mankind's help!
Climate change happens, always has, always will. And as it does, new ecosystems will set them selves up. What was once a glacial field, becomes
tundra, then a forest, and maybe next a desert. But in several 1,000 years the desert may again change into a forest then into tundra, then, once
again be beneath 500 feet of ice.
And if you notice, to get away from the naysayer, the Man-Caused-Global-Warming Crowd has changed their title to a catch all phrase: "Climate Change"
so they can blame mankind on parts of the world that are becoming both cooler and warmer; dryer, as well as wetter....etc.
Man sure has a big ego is all I can say. 
Truth generally lies in the coordination of antagonistic opinions
-Herbert Spencer
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64746
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Well said Taco!
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Frigatebird
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Location: L.A. County
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Taco de Baja
I’m still waiting for the "1,000 of scientists" to tell us what caused the global warming period from 18,000 to 10,000 year ago that melted most of
the glaciers that covered what is now Canada and the United States; resulting in catastrophic seal level changes on the order of 300 feet....Can you
say coastal flooding! |
OK, science is still working on this one, BUT:
| Quote: | | And did this coastal flooding wipe out the mangrove swamps? The tidal pools? The estuary nurseries?.... No! |
Of course it caused the destruction of the existing communities. Only a gradual rise of the waters and any adaptations the species
possessed, allowed the communities to relocate. However, some species still may have become extinct from this natural event. The rate of
the change is what should concern people today. If the consensus holds true, the time to adapt will test large numbers of creatures.
| Quote: | | However, All was not tea and crumpets, as this period did see mass die off of Ice Age Animals, from most continents except Africa. Why? Climate
change, of course. |
Do you discount the "rise of modern man" as a likely factor in the disapperance of large
animals? Man arrives in the Americas, then the megafauna disappear. Same in Australia many years before. Climate change only accelerated man's
migration into new areas.
| Quote: | | Imagine, climate changing, sea level rising, some animals becoming extinct, ecosystems altering, all without mankind's help!
|
Granted, life on earth goes on. Over 99% of all the species that have ever existed are now gone, and we
cannot take credit. The significance now is there is a growing body of evidence human activities are affecting the earth's climate,
and the rate of extinction is perhaps higher now than ever.
| Quote: | | Climate change happens, always has, always will. And as it does, new ecosystems will set them selves up. What was once a glacial field, becomes
tundra, then a forest, and maybe next a desert. But in several 1,000 years the desert may again change into a forest then into tundra, then, once
again be beneath 500 feet of ice. |
I just hope we all have time to adjust. The consequence of failure isn't
pleasant.
| Quote: | | And if you notice, to get away from the naysayer, the Man-Caused-Global-Warming Crowd has changed their title to a catch all phrase: "Climate Change"
so they can blame mankind on parts of the world that are becoming both cooler and warmer; dryer, as well as wetter....etc. |
I noticed that as well. More politics than concern, at least from those with their hat in the ring.
| Quote: | | Man sure has a big ego is all I can say. |
This same ego tells a man that a woman half is age loves him for who he is; that his shortness of breath is nothing to worry about;
that the earth is the center of the solar system; that the sun is the center of the universe; that denial is a river in Egypt.
[Edited on 4-9-2007 by Frigatebird]
Avatar courtesy of Herb 
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The Sculpin
Nomad
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Registered: 9-3-2002
Location: Back in the Saddle
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Mood: Riding into the Sunset, looking for a sunrise.
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I'm really perplexed. I find it very, very difficult to believe the arguement that man has had absolutely no impact on the rate of change in the
climate of th earth. As frigate said....man wipes out the entire european forest..man dams large rivers..man eats spieces to the verge of extinction,
and all this has no impact?!? It's like saying a rock thrown into a pond does not dreate ripples. OK..I understand the counterpoint....the pond
naturally has much larger stones thrown in all the time, so man's tiny pebbles have very little effect. Well, I fear that mans pebbles are now the
size of rocks, and are getting bigger much quicker than we realize. The other counterpoint is what good would all our efforts be if one volcano can
just push the whole thing over the edge? Hmmm...it's a rather specious arguement to delay doing something based on the probability of a catastrophic
event. We don't accept that arguement from our kids, why would we accept them from adults?
I still marvel at the fact that many countries who are at odds with each other came together to support and agree on a position paper to deal with
this issue.
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