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Paula
Super Nomad
Posts: 2219
Registered: 1-5-2006
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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Well, Dennis-- there are things I know, and things I think I know, and things I think I think and things I know I think, and when it all comes down to
it....
.... no.... I'm not sure...
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
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Well, as long as you know for sure that you're not sure, that's something.........for sure.
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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3508
Registered: 10-2-2006
Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
Member Is Offline
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I have no answers
| Quote: | Originally posted by fishbuck
Well GrassFire states on their emails that it costs $3 in government services for every $1 collected from the illegals in taxes. Guess who pays it
Lee.
As far as plenty of room? I guess you haven't been to SoCal for a while. Now if you want to invite them all to Boulder I'm all for that.
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The politics and economics of immigration is lost on me. How about a higher wall? How about building prisons on the US side of the border with
viewing holes in the wall so Mexicans can see they're families on the other side? It's all ridiculous.
I don't think the Mexicans are clogging up the I-5 or 405 and I spend as much time in SoCal as I do in Boulder.
I don't mind funneling some of my taxes and money going to that freaking war in the Middle East to provide better solutions to the border problems we
have.
I think alot of people are pi**ed off -- especially if they live in California -- and Mexicans are an easy target. The racism surfacing from the
border issues doesn't surprise me.
It does surprise me that there are Nomads who like Baja but don't really like Mexicans. Just a feeling I get. GrassFire is an example of racism.
Ask a legal Mexican what they think.
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
Member Is Offline
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I favor amnesty for everything...in advance. 
If the President really wanted to solve the illegal problem he could do it by proclamation. 
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bajadogs
Super Nomad
Posts: 1066
Registered: 8-28-2006
Member Is Offline
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“Mexicans are an easy target” - Lee
You nailed it Lee. Mexicans are the first to be taken advantage of - AND the first to be blamed.
Many fear the “illegal” migrant strawberry-pickers.
It seems pure racism to me.
bd
edit - typo
[Edited on 5-26-2007 by bajadogs]
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fishbuck
Banned
Posts: 5318
Registered: 8-31-2006
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Lee
| Quote: | Originally posted by fishbuck
Well GrassFire states on their emails that it costs $3 in government services for every $1 collected from the illegals in taxes. Guess who pays it
Lee.
As far as plenty of room? I guess you haven't been to SoCal for a while. Now if you want to invite them all to Boulder I'm all for that.
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The politics and economics of immigration is lost on me. How about a higher wall? How about building prisons on the US side of the border with
viewing holes in the wall so Mexicans can see they're families on the other side? It's all ridiculous.
I don't think the Mexicans are clogging up the I-5 or 405 and I spend as much time in SoCal as I do in Boulder.
I don't mind funneling some of my taxes and money going to that freaking war in the Middle East to provide better solutions to the border problems we
have.
I think alot of people are pi**ed off -- especially if they live in California -- and Mexicans are an easy target. The racism surfacing from the
border issues doesn't surprise me.
It does surprise me that there are Nomads who like Baja but don't really like Mexicans. Just a feeling I get. GrassFire is an example of racism.
Ask a legal Mexican what they think.
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Ya I'm with you on that I don't know the answer.
But the walls do work sort of. The poor desparate mexicans are funneled away from certain areas and then try to cross where it's more dangerous. And
yes we will probably need more prisons as a deterent for breaking the law by entering illegally.
Of the 12 million illegal mexicans how many are in Socal. 2,3,or 5 million? I could live without them and I'm sure it would be noticeable.
Don't even get started on the war.
I've never noticed anything racist in GrassFire. It's about illegal immigration. I think it would be the same if the illegals were from Canada, or
Eastern Europe. You know, white people. Illegal is illegal no matter what race you are.
I think alot of people who go to baja don't care about the local population. That's not what they are going there for.
I've met alot of Baja Californios who I've liked and a few I didn't.
But that happens everywhere you go even in the good ole US of A.
But that's life isn't it?
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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Bajafun777
Super Nomad
Posts: 1103
Registered: 9-13-2006
Location: Rosarito & California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enjoying Life with Wife In Mexico, Easy on The Easy
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Racism and illegal immigration are not the same!! I get tired of hearing this B.S. Illegal is Illegal and if we are not going to follow the law then
change it or enforce it, two choices. I still think we need a level playing field and if Mexico is pushing the U.S.A. to accept all illegals and make
immigration easier then let them do the same!!! Don't hold another Country to lesser standard than your own Country that is creating the problem to
begin with. It's not right wing or left wing to stand up for the law, it is the American thing. Right should still be Right and Wrong should still
be Wrong. I do not hate any race or culture but I do respect what their laws are and play by their rules when in their Country. I do not try to
force my own wants above what the Country I am entering into has. If I do not want to follow their laws or abide by them then I need to get out or
better yet stay out. I love going to Mexico and have more Mexican friends than I do anglo friends. However, that doesn't mean I have to give a free
pass to any other Country's Nationals that deliberately seek to violate my Country's laws and openly challenge my Country's laws by Marching with
flags not of my Country and continually challenging my Country's laws. Try that in Mexico if you dare as a group and in fact try burning a Mexican
Flag in your March in Mexico. Now quick be honest what's going to happen to you? Our immigration laws are not the best but until our Congress and
President do something different then what is in place should be followed. Now, let the finger pointing begin but all I know is "No Hurry, No Worry,
Just Fun," as life is just to short for all of this high intense thinking. Since in reality all of this means nothing, unfortunately. Dennis and
Paula will you both pop another cold one for me too?? bajafun777
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bajadogs
Super Nomad
Posts: 1066
Registered: 8-28-2006
Member Is Offline
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So, when do we start building a wall from Vancouver to Nova Scotia?
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amir
Senior Nomad
Posts: 559
Registered: 5-4-2007
Location: Todos Santos, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: chiropractic
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The US benefits from illegal immigration. They can then wage a war on illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants provide cheap slave labor for
capitalism. There was a time when slavers kidnapped Africans and ferried them across the ocean at great expense. Now the slaves are sneaking in
themselves across the border at their own expense. This saves money that can be invested in other wars.
War on illegal immigrants. War on poverty. War on drugs. War on terrorism. Wars are profitable, very profitable. If there was no profit in illegal
immigration, it wouldn't exist. Those that are benefitting don't want to change the status quo. What I hear from them is doublespeak.
--Amir
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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Have not even read the new immigration law, if it's anything like the US Income Tax Codes, wouldn't be able to understand it anyway. If you have a law and it isn't enforced, what good is it? Get a high-tech national ID that's hard to counterfit. If an employer has folks on
the job that don't have 'em, put the owner/manager/employer in jail, not the worker. Amnesty? It might be a step in the right direction. If
they're criminals, deport 'em. This problem isn't gonna solve itself.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
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Higher insurance rates can be just as much a deterrent as the unseen officer.
[Edited on 5-26-2007 by DENNIS]
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Mexitron
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3397
Registered: 9-21-2003
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by fishbuck
| Quote: | Originally posted by Lee
Until someone has a better solution, the Mexicans get the benefit of the doubt.
There's room for everyone. The US is a big place.
GrassFire? They REALLY don't like Mexicans.
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Well GrassFire states on their emails that it costs $3 in government services for every $1 collected from the illegals in taxes. Guess who pays it
Lee.
As far as plenty of room? I guess you haven't been to SoCal for a while. Now if you want to invite them all to Boulder I'm all for that.
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That may be true but don't forget the money saved by being able to pay less for wages...I imagine we still come out ahead or we wouldn't be hiring
them.
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Bajalover
Nomad
Posts: 227
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: The Cottage at Ocotillo Hills
Member Is Offline
Mood: Strongly - Missing Baja
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Amnesty? It isn't that easy. There really isn't any other choice, if you rationally think about it. Yet, IF WASHINGTON changes only 1 rule it
would make a big difference. The USA is the only country where a baby born to foreign parents is "auto" a US Citizen (this opens a BARN door really
wide). Whether it's Brazil, Germany, Italy, Japan, or India - a baby born to non country citizens gets the parents citizenship until he or she is of
voting age when the choice of nationality made. This is a hot topic and whether it's Bush or Kennedy - neither will tackle this because it costs
votes. Okay, that's my ten cents. Baja is a better place. Keep me there and let me have some more fish tacos and Pacificos. Cheers!
Sometimes you really do question; why you are and where you are.
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fishbuck
Banned
Posts: 5318
Registered: 8-31-2006
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexitron
| Quote: | Originally posted by fishbuck
| Quote: | Originally posted by Lee
Until someone has a better solution, the Mexicans get the benefit of the doubt.
There's room for everyone. The US is a big place.
GrassFire? They REALLY don't like Mexicans.
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Well GrassFire states on their emails that it costs $3 in government services for every $1 collected from the illegals in taxes. Guess who pays it
Lee.
As far as plenty of room? I guess you haven't been to SoCal for a while. Now if you want to invite them all to Boulder I'm all for that.
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That may be true but don't forget the money saved by being able to pay less for wages...I imagine we still come out ahead or we wouldn't be hiring
them. |
Ya, I keep hearing that. But I haven't saved or made any money from them being here. If fact it's a big pain in the a$$.
So if gas was cheaper with them here or housing more affordable then maybe I wouldn't mind.
So what exactly is cheaper from them being here? It costs us more not saves us money. Sure some business owners might benefit but the average Joe
(like me) get stuck holding the bill. If those business owners who profit from illegal immigration/workers were passing along the savings maybe it
would be ok. But they don't. They still charge whatever the market will bear for their goods and services and keep their illegal profits to
themselves.
And all the Joe Q Publics that play by the rules end up paying higher taxes and higher insurance costs and higher everything costs.
It will be cheaper when they are gone!
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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bajalou
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4459
Registered: 3-11-2004
Location: South of the broder
Member Is Offline
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If SS payments aren't made into the system, it's the employer that is breaking the law. If no income tax is withheld and paid to IRS and others, it's
the employer who is breaking the law.
But we sure wouldn't want to bother any patriotic American employer with legal action for these crimes, would we - that wouldn't be the American way -
so blame someone else for their crimes.
The labor costs always get passed on to the end user. If the company pays $10 per hour or $100 per hour, you, the consumer of his product will pay
the cost - there is no other way to stay in business.
[Edited on 5-26-2007 by bajalou]
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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bajalou! You've pretty much simplified the issue. Thanks.
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fishbuck
Banned
Posts: 5318
Registered: 8-31-2006
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajalou
If SS payments aren't made into the system, it's the employer that is breaking the law. If no income tax is withheld and paid to IRS and others, it's
the employer who is breaking the law.
But we sure wouldn't want to bother any patriotic American employer with legal action for these crimes, would we - that wouldn't be the American way -
so blame someone else for their crimes.
The labor costs always get passed on to the end user. If the company pays $10 per hour or $100 per hour, you, the consumer of his product will pay
the cost - there is no other way to stay in business.
[Edited on 5-26-2007 by bajalou] |
Free market capitalism chargers whatever the market will bear.
So whether he pays $10 or $100 for his labor the market value of the product or service is the same.
That's why they hire they illigal immigrant/worker. They get to keep that $90 difference as profit. When in reality it may cost $100 for the worker to
live within society.
We the public end up paying that difference.
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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amir
Senior Nomad
Posts: 559
Registered: 5-4-2007
Location: Todos Santos, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: chiropractic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajalou
The labor costs always get passed on to the end user. If the company pays $10 per hour or $100 per hour, you, the consumer of his product will pay
the cost - there is no other way to stay in business. |
But if the company was paying $100 per hour before, and then they hire illegals and only pay $10 per hour after, they will not pass on the savings to
the end user! The problem is GREED. And to show increased profits to their investors, businesses will even break the law. There are laws to curtail
illegal activities, but often these laws are not enforced, or they are legislated without teeth for the sole purpose of benefitting business.
--Amir
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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3508
Registered: 10-2-2006
Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
Member Is Offline
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The blame game
| Quote: | Originally posted by fishbuck
Ya, I keep hearing that. But I haven't saved or made any money from them being here. If fact it's a big pain in the a$$.
So if gas was cheaper with them here or housing more affordable then maybe I wouldn't mind.
So what exactly is cheaper from them being here? It costs us more not saves us money. Sure some business owners might benefit but the average Joe
(like me) get stuck holding the bill. If those business owners who profit from illegal immigration/workers were passing along the savings maybe it
would be ok. But they don't. They still charge whatever the market will bear for their goods and services and keep their illegal profits to
themselves.
And all the Joe Q Publics that play by the rules end up paying higher taxes and higher insurance costs and higher everything costs.
It will be cheaper when they are gone! |
This reads like you aren't making ''money'' from undocumented Mexicans being in the US -- and that's a pain to you. If housing or gas was cheaper,
then it would be OK for these people to be here. Am I reading this right?
When the undocumented Mexican workers go back to Mexico, taxes and insurance in the US will drop. Is that what you mean?
What a pathetic point of view.
What bothers me is that you denigrate 12 million Mexicans (or other Latino races involved in this number) blaming them for your financial statement
and the US government's ineptitude at allowing this to happen.
Your reference to Mexican people as ''them'' says something about your attitude, generally. Us vs. them.
My impression is you don't like Mexicans, whether they are ''legal'' or not.
Blame your government -- Republicans and Democrats alikely -- for the years it took these millions to come across the border.
I don't promote anyone being here undocumented but I don't see Mexicans as terrorists and opportunists, though some might be here for opportunities.
Coming across the border illegally is a desparate act -- and I sense, these people have nothing to lose.
Blame the Mexican government while you're at it.
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elizabeth
Senior Nomad
Posts: 742
Registered: 7-30-2004
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
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The current proposed legislation doesn't offer amnesty. It offers a long, expensive, process for ultimate residency.
Contrary to popular belief, it is not a crime to be here illegally, you cannot go to jail, you can be deported. (There are exeptions if you have
previously been convicted of a crime and deported.)
No one agrees about the cost of undocumented immigrants. What isn't factored in, are the number of people who use phony ss numbers, and pay taxes
that they don't get back.
Another thing to think about is just how much your food would cost if it wasn't grown and processed by largely undocumented people.
How many of you employ undocumented housecleaners and gardeners? How many of you have had social interaction with people who are undocumented and
know just how much they are exploited by people who hire them and don't pay?
And just who would do the jobs? How many paradas have you seen that were white and black citizens waiting for a day job?
I believe in open borders...Is it time to start throwing those undocumented migrant picked tomatoes at me?
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