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Neal Johns
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David K and all, Great posts on my second favorite subject!
wilderone, "The Journey of the Flame" is fiction but the ECR details are very good. It was written by Walter Nordhoff, the father of historian Charles
Nordhoff (Co-author of "Mutiny on the Bounty") under the pen name Fierro Blanco.
My motto:
Never let a Dragon pass by without pulling its tail!
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jeans
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Neal Johns
David K and all, Great posts on my second favorite subject!
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Ok...I'll bite...what is your first favorite subject?
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Speedy Gonzalez
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El Camino Real
Hello everybody
Thanks for all the posts and all the research concerning the term CAMINO REAL.
| Quote: |
Originally posted by David K
I took the liberty to email Harry Crosby today and he confirms the term 'El Camino Real' was used on documents in Spain, New Spain (Mexico), and Baja
California as early as 1705!
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Alright... but on what documents relating to Baja California? Do you have any source where we could find the answer and resolve "the mistery" about
the term CAMINO REAL being used in Baja California?
Because even my history teacher in La Paz doesn't consider the term CAMINO REAL for the trails in Baja California apropriate. So if you could find any
historical source and post it, I would highly appreciate it.
However I can understand that as a common thought all trails that dates back to the colonial period could be considered CAMINO REAL.
But somehow I feel that this is like making no difference nowadays between a highway, a federal road and a mountain trail.
Saludos a todos!
Speedy Gonzalez
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Speedy Gonzalez
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Hello Eli
Nice post! Thanks!
| Quote: |
Originally posted by Eli
He also remembers from Old topographic maps, local properties being named as bordering on ?El Camino Real? in their legal description.
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Would be great if those maps could be found and posted in the forum. It would also be interesting to know when those maps were made.
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academicanarchist
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El Camino Real
Speedy. You would probably benefit from looking at Ernest BUrrus book of translations of reports from the Jesuit missions of Baja. There may be
references to it there. I have over the years gone over many of the original documents related to the Baja California missions, but not with an eye
towards references to El Camino Real. If I remember correctly, Burrus does have some of the earliest reports on the missions in the book.
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David K
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Jesuit document using 'El Camino Real'
Fr. Miguel Venegas on Nov. 7, 1739, in Book X (10), Chapter 22 of The Apostolic Endeavors of the Missionary Fathers...
(Here are the Jesuit's mention of ECR in the fourth paragraph, I capitalized Camino Real)
"First of all, they had a main highway CAMINO REAL built through the center of the mission district extending through its entire area and running
lengthwise from south to north, for it was a common advantage to them all. Then each rancheria assumed responsibilty for building a special road
leading from its settlement and joining the CAMINO REAL which was, so to speak, the main trunk-line in which all the seperate roads from the
rancherias terminated."
The Finding El Camino Real article is at http://vivabaja.com/ECR
[Edited on 5-16-2004 by David K]
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Speedy Gonzalez
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Hola David
Thanks for your post. But as you probably know your source Venegas never set a foot on the peninsula. He got all his informations about California
from letters and documents in the archives of the capital.
His manuscript "Empressas apostolicas" of 1739 was sent to Spain but only published 18 years later. But before beeing published the manuscript of
Venegas was re-edited by Padre Burriel because Venegas' manuscript was considered incomplete and had in many points nothing to do with the reality of
the life in California.
| Quote: |
Originally posted by David K
Fr. Miguel Venegas on Nov. 7, 1739, in Book X (10), Chapter 22 of The Apostolic Endeavors of the Missionary Fathers:
"First of all, they had a main highway CAMINO REAL built through the center of the mission district extending through its entire area and running
lengthwise from south to north, for it was a common advantage to them all. Then each rancheria assumed responsibilty...
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Only have a look at this sentences from Venegas! How can you possibly speak of a main highway from south to north in 1739??? And rancherias??? What
rancherias??? Guaycuras and Pericues didn't have rancherias.
Have a look at Miguel Barco's "Historia Natural y Cronica de la Antigua California" which in my opinion is the best testimony of that time. Miguel
Barco stayed in Baja California from 1741 to 1768 and travelled to all missions from north to south as a inspector of the missions. He doesn't use the
term CAMINO REAL for the trails that connected the missions.
Take one of the the completest book about the history of the peninsula called "Historia de Baja California" from Pablo Martinez. No mention of any
CAMINO REAL.
Who knows... you might find the term CAMINO REAL mentioned somewhere in an old source, but however... it was definitively not common to name those
small trails in Baja California CAMINO REAL.
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David K
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Good Morning Speedy,
I know Venegas never was in Baja. He was the Jesuit who compiled all the documents coming out of Baja. He drew the famous map in 1757 of the Baja
missions. The point is he was a Jesuit and used the term CAMINO REAL for the main roads in Baja.
The Venegas quote was not part of the edit by Burriel. Venegas also did his best to confirm facts by writing many letters, befor completing his
report. The Camino Real did run from Loreto to San Ignacio in that year (south to north). Indian settlements beyond the main mission, were called
rancherias. Just because these terms were not used in mainland Mexico the same way as they were in Baja does not make them untrue.
It sounds as if your teacher is on a mission to rewrite California's history to make all the Spanish efforts performed less important, for some
reason?
I had hoped this would have satisfied your desire to see that the Jesuits did call the trail Camino Real.
I now doubt if any evidence is going to change your opinion, and no matter how many hundreds of years people have called the (Baja) California mission
trail 'El Camino Real', you won't accept that. There's nothing more I guess I can do... ?
How about a new topic to discuss?
[Edited on 5-20-2004 by David K]
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Mexitron
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Re "the Journey of the Flame" author Walter Nordhoff's pen name---actually was Antonio Fierro Blanco.....great book! According to Frank
Nordhoff, Walter's grandson, the character is fictional, but the events in the book were generally true(like Michener's writings).
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academicanarchist
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Venegas
Venegas was the official historian of the Jesuit missions in Baja California, and most importantly he had access to and used reports and other
documents generated by the Jesuits stationed in the Peninsula missions. The fact that he did not set foot in Baja California is necessary to note, but
is irrelevant since he had access to reports and such from the Peninsula. Miguel del Barco wrote his text after leaving Baja California following the
Jesuit expulsion, and did so from memory. Del Barco took exception to certain things that Venegas included in his history. The fact that Del Barco did
not mention the term El Camino Real does not prove that it was not used.
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David K
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Thanks for the added details Robert, one can never have too many historical facts on Baja!
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Speedy Gonzalez
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Hi David
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It sounds as if your teacher is on a mission to rewrite California's history...
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Considering the fact that the history books used in our schools and many other documents and books about the history of our peninsula do not mention
any CAMINO REAL in Baja California I am wondering who is really trying to rewrite the history...
It should also make you think why there are no "historical landmarks" or informations to find around missions like Loreto or San Ignacio that clearly
indicates that there has been a CAMINO REAL.
There are not so many historical sites for tourists in Baja California. A CAMINO REAL would definetively be a highlight and worth mentioning.
(Or have a look in the Sierra Tarahumara in the state of Chihuahua. The road or trail from Batopilas to Chihuahua was considered a CAMINO REAL. But
the trails connecting some of the missions are not considered to be CAMINOS REALES.)
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Just because these terms were not used in mainland Mexico the same way as they were in Baja does not make them untrue.
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Baja California was part of New Spain. I therefore don't see any reason why there should have been other terms used in Baja California.
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...to rewrite California's history to make all the Spanish efforts performed less important, for some reason?
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It has nothing to do with rewriting history if you say that what happened in the northern part of New Spain and in Baja California was less
"important" or less significant than what happened in the heart of New Spain.
I can understand that an US-American and especially a Californian might consider the history from Baja California beeing important. But taking it from
a Spanish, Mexican or a global view... what happened in Baja California during the colonial period was compared to what happened in other parts of New
Spain and the world rather insignificant.
| Quote: |
...for some reason?
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My teacher is from Baja California and proud about it. Nevertheless he wouldn't consider a small trail a CAMINO REAL. He likes to stick to historical
facts and doesn't want to "pump up" the history of his peninsula.
You might think that I consider history of Baja California not important or not interesting. Not at all... the opposite is the case. I love the
history of Baja California and I have a lot of respect for the work of the Jesuits. But I like to look at it in a context with the rest of the history
of New Spain. And... if you compare with what happened in the rest of the country (exept the northern part) than you must simply admit that what
happened on our peninsula was "peanuts."
| Quote: |
How about a new topic to discuss?
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Very good idea! 
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academicanarchist
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To Speedy
I have been studying Baja California and other parts of northern Mexico for about 25 years now. I do not consider the history of the northern frontier
of Mexico to be any less important than the history of central Mexico. In terms of the issues that I consider to be important in the history of
northern Mexico during the colonial period, the use of the term El Camino Real or the non-use of El Camino Real to designate mission trails in Baja
California is not all that important. I have read many 18th century documents related to the history of Baja California, but not with the intent of
proving or disproving what the trails were called. I believe that there are far more important historical issues to address. Having said that, you
have raised a question and I have given my opinion. There are many fine Mexican historians studying the same regions that I have studied, and I accept
all historians regardless of nationality as professional colleagues. As I stated in an earlier post, the fact that there is no historical market
identifying "El Camino Real" around Loreto is irrelevant. Obviously, somebody has to puyt up the money for historical markers.
PS. You may not have seen the earlier post where I listed my publications. You tell me if, by the number of books and articles I have written on the
north Mexican Frontier, if I consider the region to be important.
Books
1.The Spanish Missions of Baja California. New York: Garland Publishing Inc., 1991.
2.Indian Demographic Decline :the Missions of Northwestern New Spain, 1687-1840. Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 1994.
3.Regional Markets and Agrarian Transformation in Bolivia: Cochabamba, 1539-1960. Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 1994.
4.Robert H. Jackson and Edward Castillo, Indians, Franciscans, and Spanish Colonization: The Impact of the Mission System on California Indians.
Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 1995.
5.Erick Langer and Robert Jackson, editors, The New Latin American Mission History. University of Nebraska Press, 1995.
6.Robert H. Jackson, ed.,Liberals, The Church, and Indian Peasants: Corporate Lands and the Challenge of Reform in Nineteenth-Century Spanish
America. Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 1997.
7.Race, Caste, and Status: Indians in Colonial Spanish America. Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 1999. Cited as an outstanding academic
book for 1999 by Choice Magazine.
8.Robert H. Jackson, ed., New Views of Borderlands History. Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 1998.
9.Robert H. Jackson, From Savages to Subjects: Missions in the History of the American Southwest. M.E. Sharpe, 2000.
Articles and Book Chapters
1."Epidemic Disease and Indian Depopulation in the Baja California Missions, 1697-1834," Southern California Quarterly 63 (1981), Pp. 308-346.
2."The Last Jesuit Censuses of the Pimeria Alta Missions, 1761 and 1766," The Kiva 46 (1981), Pp. 243-272.
3."The 1845 Villa de Branciforte Census," Antepasados 4 (1981), Pp. 45-57.
4."Causes of Indian Depopulation in the Pimeria Alta Missions of Northern Sonora," Journal of Arizona History 24 (1983), Pp. 405-429.
5."Demographic Patterns in the Missions of Northern Baja California," Journal of California and Great Basin Anthropology 5 (1983), Pp. 130-139.
6."Disease and Demographic Patterns at Santa Cruz Mission, Alta California," Journal of California and Great Basin Anthropology 5 (1983), Pp.
33-57.
7."Demographic Patterns in the Missions of Central Baja California," Journal of California and Great Basin Anthropology 6 (1984), Pp. 91-112.
8."Demographic Change in Northwestern New Spain," The Americas 41 (1985), Pp. 462-479. Reproduced in Antonine Tibesar, O.F.M., editor, Junipero
Serra and the Northwestern Mexican Frontier, 1750-1825 (Washington, D.C., 1985).
9."Gentile Recruitment and Population Movements in the San Francisco Bay Area Missions," Journal of California and Great Basin Anthropology 6
(1984), Pp. 225-239.
10.Robert H. Jackson and Peter Stern, "Vagabundaje and Settlement Patterns in Colonial Northern Sonora," The Americas 44 (1988), Pp. 461-481.
11.Robert Jackson and Erick Langer, "Colonial and Republican Missions Compared: The Cases of Alta California and Southeastern Bolivia, Comparative
Studies in Society and History 30 (1988), Pp. 286-311.
12."Patterns of Demographic Change in the Missions of Southern Baja California," Journal of California and Great Basin Anthropology 8 (1986), Pp.
273-279.
13."Patterns of Demographic Change in the Missions of Central Alta California. Journal of California and Great Basin Anthropology 9 (1987), Pp.
251-272.
14.Robert Jackson and Jose Gordillo Claure, "Mestizaje y proceso de parcelizacion en la estructura agraria de Cochabamba (El caso de SipeSipe en los
siglos XVlll-XlX)," HISLA 10 (1987), Pp. 15-37.
15."Evolucion y persistencia del colonaje en las haciendas de Cochabamba," Siglo XlX 3 (1988), Pp. 145-162.
16."Estructura agraria y mestizaje en el Canton Paredon a principios del siglo XX," Estudios-UMSS 2 (1988), 2-27.
17."Aportes para el estudio de la crisis regional a fines del siglo XlX," Estudios-UMSS 2 (1988), Pp. 110-118.
18."Markets, Peasantry, and the Formation and Fragmentation of the Cochabamba Hacienda. A Review of Larson, Brooke, Colonialism and Agrarian
Transformation in Bolivia: Cochabamba, 1550-1900," a review published in Peasant Studies 16 (1988), 39-52.
19."The Decline of the Hacienda in Cochabamba, Bolivia: The Case of the Sacaba Valley, 1870-1929," The Hispanic American Historical Review 69
(1989), 259-281.
20."The 1781-1782 Smallpox Epidemic in the Baja California Missions," Journal of California and Great Basin Anthropology 3 (1981), Pp. 138-143.
21."Intermarriage at Fort Ross: A Case From San Rafael Mission," Journal of California and Great Basin Anthropology 5 (1983), Pp. 240-241.
22."La metodologia historica," Estudios-UMSS 1 (1987), Pp. 2-8.
23."The Justiniano Roxas Hoax: The Story of the Oldest Man on Earth," The Californians 4:6 (1986), Pp. 44, 54.
24."La dinamica del desastre demografico de la poblacion india en las misiones de la bahia de San Francisco, Alta California," Historia Mexicana 40
(1990), Pp. 187-215.
25) An English language version of this article was published in American Indian Quarterly 17 (Spring 1992), 141-156.
25."La colonizacion de la Alta California: Un analisis del desarrollo de dos comunidades misionales," Historia Mexicana 41 (1991), Pp. 83-110.
26."Population and the Economic Dimension of Colonization in Alta California: Four Mission Communities," Journal of the Southwest 33 (1991), Pp.
387-439.
27. Co-editor of the Fall 1991 issue of Journal of the Southwest, a special edition with a collection of six essays on the history of northern
colonial Mexico written by younger scholars. My co-editor and I selected and edited the essays presented in the issue.
28."Repeopling The Land: The Spanish Borderlands," and 30) "Relations With the Mother Country: The Spanish Borderlands," in The Encyclopedia of
Colonial American History (New York, 1993).
29.With Erick Langer, "El liberalismo y el problema de la tierra en Bolivia (1825-1920)," Siglo XlX 5:10 (1990), Pp. 9-32.
30."The Dynamics of Indian Demographic Collapse in the Mission Communities of Northwestern New Spain: A Comparative Approach With Implications for
Popular Interpretations of Mission History," in Virginia Guedea and Jaime Rodriguez O., editors, Five Centuries of Mexican History/Cinco Siglos de
Historia de Mexico, 2 volumes (Mexico D.F., 1992), volume 1, pp. 139-156.
31."Cambios en la tenencia de la tierra en la provincia de Cliza (1860-1930) y origenes de los sindicatos campesinos bolivianos," Historia Y Cultura
[La Paz, Bolivia] 18 (1990), Pp. 99-110.
32."The Treatment or Mistreatment of Disease? Comments on Ronn Pineo's "Misery and Death in the Pearl of the Pacific: Health Care in Guayaquil,
Ecuador, 1870-1925," Hispanic American Historical Review 71 (1991), Pp. 365-368.
33."The Changing Economic Structure of the Alta California Missions: A Reinterpretation," Pacific Historical Review 61:3 (1992), Pp. 387-415.
34."The Population of the Santa Barbara Channel Missions (Alta California), 1813-1832," Journal of California and Great Basin Anthropology 12:2
(1990).
35."Patterns of Demographic Change in the Alta California Missions: The Case of Santa Ines," California History 71:3 (Fall, 1992), pp. 362-369.
36.Robert H. Jackson and Gregory Maddox, "The Creation of Identity: Colonial Society in Bolivia and Tanzania," Comparative Studies in Society and
History 35:2 (1993), 263-284.
37."The Impact of Liberal Policy on Mexico's Northern Frontier: Mission Secularization and the Development of Alta California, 1812-1846," Colonial
Latin American Historical Review 2:2 (1993), 195-225.
38.with Jose Gordillo Claure, "Formacion, crisis y transformacion de la estructura agraria de Cochabamba. El caso de la hacienda de Paucarpata y de
la comunidad del Passo, 1538-1645 y 1872-1929," Revista de Indias 53, # 199 (Sept.-Dec., 1993), 723-760.
39."Congregation and Population Change in the Mission Communities of Northern New Spain: Cases From the Californias and Texas," New Mexico
Historical Review (April, 1994), 163-183.
40."Race/Caste and the Creation and Meaning of Identity in Colonial Spanish America," Revista de Indias 55, #203 (1995), 149-173.
41."Grain Supply, Congregation, and Demographic Patterns in the Missions of Northwestern New Spain: Case Studies from Baja and Alta California,"
Journal of the West 34:1 (1997), 19-25.
42."Naissance Et Metamorphoses Du Savoir Demographique: Le Mestizaje Des Communates Indigenes de la Valle Bajo de Cochabamba, En Bolivie," Cahiers
Quebecois De Demographie 25:1 (1996).
43."Agriculture, Drought, and Chumash Congregation in the California Missions (1782-1834)," California Mission Studies Association Newsletter 16:1
(May, 1999), 3-10.
44."Agriculture, Drought, and Chumash Congregation in the California Missions (1782-1834)," Estudios de Historia Novohispana 19 (1999), 69-90.
45. ?The 1824 Chumash Uprising Reconsidered,? California Mission Studies Association Newsletter 17 (Fall 2000), 8-16.
46. ?Labor Rights and the Restructuring of Major League Baseball, 1969-1992: A Case Study of Franchise Performance and the Myth of Baseball
Management,? in William Simons, ed., The Cooperstown Symposium on Baseball and American Culture, 2001 (McFarland & Co., Jefferson, North Carolina,
2002), 336-352.
47. ?Una frustrada evangelizaci?n: las limitaciones del cambio social, cultural y religioso en los ?Pueblos Errantes? de las misiones del Desierto
Central de Baja California y la regi?n de la costa del Golfo de Texas/A Frustrated Evangelization: The Limitations to Social, Cultural and Religious
Change Among the ?Wandering Peoples? of the Missions of the Central Desert of Baja California and the Texas Gulf Coast ? Fronteras de la Historia
(Bogota, Colombia) 6 (2001), 7-40.
48. ? Demographic Patterns at Santa Clara Mission, 1777-1840,? in Russell Skowronenk, ed., Telling the Santa Clara Story (Santa Clara, 2002), 84-92.
49. "Wandering Peoples?: Seasonal Migration and Settlement Patterns in the Missions on the Northern Fringe of New Spain,? California Mission Studies
Association Boletin 19:2 (Fall, 2002), 19-34.
50. ?Han ignorado la amrosa voz del Padre?: Reconsiderando los origenes del levantamiento de los chumash en 1824 en la California mexicana,? Descatos
10 (Otono-Invierno 2002), 77-93.
51.? ?lites ind?genas y pol?tica espa?ola en Cochabamba durante la colonia,? in Blanca Tovias and David Cahill, eds., Elites indigenas en los Andes:
Nobles, Caciques, y Cabildantes bajo el Yugo Colonial (Quito, 2003), 243-247.
52. ?Missoes nas fronteiras da America Espanhola: analise comparativa,? Estudos Ibero-Americanos PUCRS 24:2 (dezembro 2003), 51-78.
53. ?A Colonization Born of Frustration: Rosario Mission and the Karankawas,? Journal of South Texas 17:1 (Spring, 2004), 31-50.
[Edited on 5-21-2004 by academicanarchist]
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David K
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Interesting debate.
Baja has never had the population of mainland Mexico, so the Jesuit trail never got the same amount of use. The automobile, starting in the 1920's,
required a different route than most of the Camino Real. So, the Camino Real (in many places) never got improved between Loreto and El Rosario. El
Rosario to San Diego is different and the Camino Real (most of the original route) is paved (Hwy. 1). In the 1960's, I remember the bells along the
route in San Diego County marking the Camino Real.
From a California-American (who loves Baja history) point of view: The school books and tourist guides barely mention the origins of California being
in Baja. If you didn't do a little research, you might think San Diego de Alcala was California's first mission, and the El Camino Real started in San
Diego and went north to San Francisco.
The truth is Baja California was California FIRST. The distant unexplored land to the north was simply called Alta California. The El Camino Real
began in Loreto and eventually connected the missions in both Californias. Even missions like Guadalupe del Norte that were not on the main Camino,
have an EL CAMINO REAL marker placed by INAH. See my photo at http://vivabaja.com/cabras/page4.html
I also highly recommend the Mexican movie 'BAJO CALIFORNIA, the limit of Time' and the El Camino Real is mentioned as it goes through San Francisco de
la Sierra where the film's character Damian seeks his roots as an Arce family member.
I have provided evidence that even the Jesuits used the name Camino Real in Baja California. In your teacher's opinion Los Camino Reales were only tax
collection routes and well maintained roads even beyond the Spanish era. In Baja California, this simply wasn't the case. Thus 'El Camino Real' didn't
resemble the Camino Reales in mainland Mexico. Is Baja California differnt? YES!
I do thank you for your input. It forced me to research the name, even more. In my first post, I even bowed to your statement that the Jesuits
probably didn't use the term Camino Real. However, I have found proof they did. I am sure Fr. Miguel Venegas wasn't the only one.
I also have the opportunity to soon meet again with Harry Crosby who I believe is the greatest living authority on El Camino Real, having explored it
since 1967 (when he was a photographer for 'The Call to California'). Some of his books that cover the topic: The King's Highway in Baja California,
Last of the Californios, Antigua California, and his new book Gateway to Alta California (intense deatail on the Camino Real from Mision San Fernando
Velicata to San Diego and the people who traveled from Baja to Alta California with Serra). I will be asking Harry about your opinion. If you would
like me to ask anything specific, please email me your question(s) before 8 am Saturday and I will ask Harry for you. My email address is in my web
site (VivaBaja.com).
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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
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On speaking Spanish
Never order Spaghetti in the Phillipines or a hamburger at the Red Lobster.
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Speedy Gonzalez
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Hola David, hola academicanarchist
The EL CAMINO REAL discussion is over for me. Otherwise we could debate for another couple of months... 
But in David's last post I found this interesting sentence...
| Quote: |
Originally posted by David K
From a California-American (who loves Baja history) point of view: The school books and tourist guides barely mention the origins of California being
in Baja. If you didn't do a little research, you might think San Diego de Alcala was California's first mission, and the El Camino Real started in San
Diego and went north to San Francisco.
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I will open a new topic with that sentence to try to find out the reasons... Maybe we will get some new ideas from other members of the forum about
the importance of Spanish colonial history in the Northern part of Mexico and in Baja California... 
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64845
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Excellent Idea!
I will look forward to that!
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