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stanburn
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whoooosh,
thanks for strengthening my argument. If everyone is pretty much in agreement that from an evolutionary standpoint (government & society, not
people) Mexico is behind the the United States, then why is so much gum flapping spent on applying the NOB standards to the Mexican society?
At least they haven't overthrown any sovereign foreign governments and then have been unable to keep basic services at the same level of the evil
government that was overthrown. Oh wait I went off topic again!
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Coatlallope
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| Quote: | Originally posted by stanburn
thanks for strengthening my argument. If everyone is pretty much in agreement that from an evolutionary standpoint (government & society, not
people) Mexico is behind the the United States, then why is so much gum flapping spent on applying the NOB standards to the Mexican society?
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I don't think I understand your comment. Having an honest and functioning police force is a standard expectation of all civilized societies, not just
NOB. It is not a NOB standard, it is a civilized standard found in all advanced societies.
I would also like to point out that society is people. Your statement defining society as something different than people is all but gibberish.
| Quote: | Originally posted by stanburn
At least they haven't overthrown any sovereign foreign governments and then have been unable to keep basic services at the same level of the evil
government that was overthrown. Oh wait I went off topic again! |
Study your history. The Spanish overthrew the Aztec empire to conquer Mexico. Along the way they wiped out 90% of the indigenous population. In a way,
the indios of Mexico are still a conquered people as they have not been incorporated into society.
You started counting Mexico's life from the revolution in the early 1900's. But Mexico is the oldest country in the Americas; it's over 500 years old,
two centuries older than the US. Mexico was not comprised of a bunch of Neanderthal's living in caves before the Revolution. The Revolution was just
about land reform. That alone does not explain the lawlessness in Mexico today. And I think you have watched a few too many Western's in your life.
The US in the 1800's was not lawless and crime was relatively low. The Wild West is just a creative fiction. The only killings were usually among
single drifters in barfights.
Mexico should be way ahead of where it is today. It's per capita GDP is only 1/4th of the US and it managed to avoid all the disasters in the 20th
Century. No WWI, no WWII, no Cold War. Take a look at Japan as an example. In 1946, after WWII, Japan was stripped down to bare metal. It had
squandered all its capital prosecuting the war. Japan had virtually nothing, it was poorer than Mexico. Look where it has come in the 60 years since
the war. Japan's per capita GDP is now three times that of Mexico.
You can apologize for Mexico all you want, it does not change the facts on the ground. Mexico has only a 9% European population, 30% pure indio and
61% mestizo, yet there has not been an indio president in 70 years. Take a look at the pictures of Mexican presidents -- al gueros.
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CaboRon
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Coatlallope
Study your history. The Spanish overthrew the Aztec empire to conquer Mexico.
Mexico is the oldest country in the Americas; it's over 500 years old, two centuries older than the US.
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Just wanted to point out what can happen during the heat of a rant .... and the lack of the preview button for screening these before publishing ...
While I agree with much of what you say, I just had to point out a couple of things from a history perspective.
BTW - IMHO:
Oldest Country in the Americas probably should go to the Incas ...
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moldyboldy
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so now the cops in cabo cant be trusted anymore.bodies all over cancun
.its not just tj anymore.its starting to happen in the resort towns.dont get drunk at cabo wabo and walk home or the cops might shake you down
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Paulina
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Moldyboldy,
Tell me that you're being facetious.
It's always been that way.
Si?
P<*)))>{
\"Well behaved women rarely make history.\" Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
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oxxo
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by moldyboldydont get drunk at cabo wabo and walk home or the cops might shake you down |
Public drunkeness is illegal in Los Cabos. I think it should be. If you want to get drunk in public, you might want to consider going someplace
else.....like downtown LA. Cops won't shake you down there, but who knows what else might happen.
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bajajudy
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From the Tribunal
Portada - 01 / 09 / 2008
Abuso de autoridad, tortura y homicidio, entre los cargos contra policías involucrados en muerte de turista
San José del Cabo.
La Procuraduría General de Justicia del Estado -PGJE-, considera que los policías municipales arraigados y relacionados con la muerte del extranjero
Sam Botner, podrían ser responsables de los delitos de: abuso de autoridad, tortura y homicidio, por lo que continúan integrando la averiguación
previa.
La PGJE que dirige Fernando González Rubio Cerecer, confirmó que ayer fueron trasladados a La Paz, bajo estrictas medidas de seguridad, los policías
municipales: José Luis Flores, Ariosto Gómez Vázquez y Francisco Javier Martínez; el Oficial de Barandilla, Emilio Ramírez Teodosio; el radio
operador, Luis Norberto Rosas Rosas y el comandante de grupo Martín Burgoin Olachea, todos los anteriores permanecerán por 30 días en la casa de
arraigo.
Un elemento de prueba más en contra de los agentes de Seguridad Pública, es la versión del médico legista de la misma institución municipal, mismo que
el día de la detención certificó a Sam Botner con sólo una lesión contusa en nariz y boca, pero al mostrarle las fotos del cuerpo encontrado ya sin
vida y las lesiones que éste presentaba, el galeno negó categóricamente que esas fueran las que llevara al momento de haberlo él auscultado la noche
del miércoles 27 de agosto.
También en la declaración de uno de los policías detenidos, éste aceptó haber golpeado al turista americano estando el hoy occiso esposado de las
manos y tirado al piso, propinándole más de una patada.
La PGJE sigue en espera por el momento de los resultados de algunas pruebas periciales muy importantes, como el dictamen histopatológico y el del
video.
Hasta el momento la PGJE, ha enfatizado que han trabajado en el marco normativo de sus facultades, investigando e
integrando la averiguación previa, para aportar al Juez todos los elementos para que determine la culpabilidad o inocencia de los policías
relacionados con la muerte del turista Sam Botner.
En las investigaciones para esclarecer las condiciones en que falleció un extranjero en las celdas de la cárcel municipal, la Dirección General de
Seguridad Pública y Tránsito Municipal ha brindado todas las facilidades y coadyuvado con las autoridades del Ministerio Público del Fuero Común para
que se aclaren los hechos y se deslinden las responsabilidades en contra de quién o quiénes resulten responsables, aunque es importante aclarar que
por derecho constitucional nadie puede ser condenado de un hecho sin antes ser oído y vencido en juicio.
El titular de la Dirección General de Seguridad Pública y Tránsito Municipal, Apolinar Ledesma Arréola, mantiene una estrecha comunicación con el
Procurador General de Justicia en la entidad, Fernando González Rubio Cerecer, para aportar toda información o documentación que se requiera para
integrar la averiguación previa en torno a las condiciones en que falleció el extranjero Sam Botner.
Prueba de ello es que la misma noche del miércoles 27 de agosto en que sucedió el lamentable suceso los 6 elementos participantes en la detención,
traslado y reclusión del extranjero, de manera voluntaria se presentaron ante el Ministerio Público del Fuero Común para declarar en torno a los
hechos y se deslindará la responsabilidad de cada uno de ellos.
De igual forma se giraron las instrucciones de cooperación y presentación de cualquier documento o indicio que esté en áreas de competencia de la
Dirección General de Seguridad Pública y Tránsito Municipal ha sido una orden reiterada a los mandos y personal que esa noche estuvieron de turno.
Contrario a los rumores que se han dejado esparcir, los expedientes de los 6 policías -presuntamente involucrados en los lamentables hechos- se
encuentran en los archivos de la Dirección General de Seguridad Pública y Tránsito Municipal y a disposición de la autoridad competente que lo
requiera, sin embargo es importante aclarar que hasta el momento ni por oficio ni de manera verbal tales documentos han sido solicitados.
Asimismo es importante precisar que las cámaras de video instaladas en el interior de la cárcel municipal su total control lo tienen las autoridades
de la Contraloría Municipal y nadie ni mandos policiacos, medios y superiores, tienen acceso a los materiales que en forma diaria se graban, por lo
que en tales condiciones la Dirección General de Seguridad Pública y Tránsito Municipal no puede acceder a la manipulación de las imágenes de video.
Como trabajadores de la corporación policiaca, los 6 elementos que se encuentran a disposición del Ministerio Público y presuntamente involucrados en
la muerte del extranjero, José Luis Flores, Ariosto Gómez Vázquez, Francisco Javier Martínez, Emilio Ramírez Teodosio, Luis Norberto Rosas Rosas y
Martín Burgoin Burgoin, han tenido todo el apoyo para su defensa jurídica sin embargo es importante precisar que si de las investigaciones que se
realizan alguno o varios resultan responsables, la Dirección General de Seguridad Pública y Tránsito Municipal refrendará su compromiso de que todo
aquel elemento que se aparte de ley debe asumir su responsabilidad a título personal y por las conductas que se desplieguen en el ejercicio de su
función.
En este X Ayuntamiento que encabeza René Núñez Cosío se han girado instrucciones precisas para que el estado de derecho no se vulnere y el actuar de
la Policía Municipal este apegado a la legalidad. No habrá disimulo ni tolerancia contra quien infrinja la ley, trátese de quién se trate.
La Dirección General de Seguridad Pública y Tránsito Municipal reitera su compromiso y disposición de brindar toda la información que se tenga al
alcance para el cabal esclarecimiento de los hechos, así como seguir trabajando para lograr tener una policía profesional y capacitada, que se
conduzca con disciplina, orden y respeto.
Es importante destacar, que en el informe de los 100 días, se destaco que en estos primeros 3 meses de la administración fueron puestos fuera de
circulación 103 presuntos distribuidores de droga, evitando que lleguen, a la población juvenil y adulta, 2,162 dosis de cocaína, marihuana y crystal,
coadyuvando con ello en la erradicación de éste cáncer social que lacera a las familias mexicanas y en particular a la de Los Cabos.
From what I can translate
The 4 policemen have been moved to La Paz, their files intact and the video tape not tampered with.
They are awaiting an autopsy, I think, and review of the video tapes.
The last paragraph is a pat on the back for all the drug dealers they have apprehended in the month of august.
Maybe someone more fluent can elaborate.
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capt. mike
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Coatlallope
very cogent. good points. you should post more, you nailed it man! good show.
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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Dave
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By "plain and simple" I meant that:
| Quote: | Originally posted by Lee
It's not plain or simple to me, and I have my own opinion. A bribe is not corruption to me. |
Offer or acceptance of a bribe is against the law.
You know what laws are, don't you? Aren't they written rules that police are sworn to uphold?
Or is that just my opinion? 
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whalemeat
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Since when is a bribe not against the law. Thats whats wrong with Mexico and other third world countries that look the other way when this
happens. Robbery and kidnapping and just one rung up the ladder for these crooks that pretend to serve the public. Its no wonder people
are concerned.
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Dave
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Exactly!!!
| Quote: | Originally posted by whalemeat
Since when is a bribe not against the law. Thats whats wrong with Mexico and other third world countries that look the other way when
this happens. Robbery and kidnapping and just one rung up the ladder for these crooks that pretend to serve the public. Its no
wonder people are concerned. |
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Lee
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When is a law not a law. When it's a bad law.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
Offer or acceptance of a bribe is against the law.
Yes, in MX and US.
| Quote: | | You know what laws are, don't you? Aren't they written rules that police are sworn to uphold?
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I'm well aware of the laws moreso from an enforcement POV. Yes to the 2nd question.
| Quote: | | Or is that just my opinion?
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A bribe in the US is a bribe. Depends on the circumstances of the ''bribe'' and who is making the bribe.
In MX, things are different. Yes, a bribe is against the law but that doesn't mean anything. If a law (bribery in MX) is unenforceable, or
selectively enforced, then it's a bad law. To me, bad laws are not laws.
If you're gringo in MX, bribery is (probably) a necessary evil. If you're MX, bribery is something else. Ask a MX if they consider bribery
''against the law'' in MX.
If my point isn't made or understood, there's little more I can say. Maybe u2u would be better.
I've already said this issue is not ''pure and simple.'' EVERYBODY here is entitled to their opinion. Including me.
I do consider the Cabo cops in this thread as corrupt. |
US Marines: providing enemies of America an opportunity to die for their country since 1775.
What I say before any important decision.
F*ck it.
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Coatlallope
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Later news in English
http://www.nwcn.com/statenews/oregon/stories/NW_090208ORN_or...
"EUGENE, Ore. - An Oregon tourist is dead after being taken to a Mexican jail, and six Mexican officers are under house arrest in the death.
Sam Botner, a crab fisherman from Yoncalla, Oregon and his wife Kim went on vacation last week in San Jose del Cabo, near Cabo San Lucas. The trip was
to celebrate Sam's return from fishing season in Alaska.
But the trip didn't go well, according to Botner's wife, who told KGW after four days they felt taken advantage of because they did not speak Spanish.
They were planning to return home early.
On August 27th, the couple had returned from dinner around 8:30 p.m. Kim Botner said they both went for a swim in the ocean. Her husband went up to
their rented condo to change while she stayed on the beach.
A short time later, she said she heard her husband shouting angrily. She ran to the parking lot and saw a man sitting on the ground. She said Sam had
gotten into a confrontation with a security officer working at the condo.
Police arrived, handcuffed Sam Botner and took him to jail.
Kim Botner said he was resisting the officers, but did not deserve to die in the Mexican jail.
“I’m sure he was resisting,” she said. " But he was handcuffed the whole time, they told me that. And within one hour after they arrested him, he was
dead. I’ve seen 29 pictures after they arrested him and they beat him to death."
"No matter what, the people know what they did. I'd like some justice, but they're going to have to live the rest of their lives knowing that they
killed somebody," said Paul Botner, victim's brother.
Six Mexican officers have been placed under house arrest on suspicion of homicide, according to Baja California Sur state deputy prosecutor Omar
Bajaras. At least one of those guards admitted kicking Botner in the face, according to authorities.
A medical examiner recorded minor bruises on Botner's face at the time of his arrest, but more were found on his body after his death, the prosecutor
said.
Barajas said the police officers gave contradictory statements about the man's incarceration. One confessed to kicking him in the face. Others said
the victim hit his face on the ground when they pushed him to the floor to subdue him.
Surveillance video and witness statements indicate that officers struck the victim, Barajas said.
The U.S. Consulate said it was working with Mexican authorities on this investigation. "
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Coatlallope
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Another article on this. The poor guy left three childred in Oregon.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/09/dead_yoncal...
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bajajudy
Elite Nomad
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Location: San Jose del Cabo,BCS
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Thanks for the update
After this thread went south, I was afraid that we would get no more details
My deepest sympathy goes out to this family.
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tripledigitken
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Coatlallope,
Clever handle! Am I correct with the translation of "to tread on snakes?" Sounds dangerous, not a hobby I hope?
Welcome to BN.
Ken
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Bajalover
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Cops - House arrest - YEAH RIGHT! Believe that and .........! A hitman should be found to take out these cops "permanently". That's the right thing
to do.
I rest my case.
Sometimes you really do question; why you are and where you are.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajalover
- House arrest - |
In my day I've been in a couple of "houses" which I was sorry I ever had to leave.
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bajajudy
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More news on this incident.
From The News:
Jailed tourist died due to spleen injury
ASSOCIATED PRESS
CABO SAN LUCAS, B.C.S. - A state prosecutor says a U.S. tourist drowned in his own blood while in police custody.
Sam Botner of Yancalla, Oregon, was arrested on Aug. 27 in the resort of San José del Cabo and was later found dead in a jail cell. Prosecutors say a
surveillance video shows officers beating Botner.
In an interview Thursday, Baja California Sur state prosecutor Fernando González said Botner suffered a ruptured spleen and then died of asphyxiation
after internal bleeding blocked his airway.
Six police officers are under house arrest in the death. Prosecutors have two weeks to determine whether they will bring charges in the case.
HOME | SECTION
From Tribuna de Los Cabos
Portada - 06 / 09 / 2008
Confía Procuraduría que Juez cuente con elementos para proceder contra policías por homicidio
San José del Cabo.
Cumplen una semana los seis elementos uniformados de arraigo en La Paz. Mientras tanto en Yoncalla, Oregón, Estados Unidos, familiares y amigos lo
despedirán en una ceremonia religiosa, donde estarán presentes sus cenizas.
A semana y media de la muerte del turista americano Sam Botner, en las instalaciones de la Dirección General de Seguridad Pública de esta ciudad, hoy
en su pueblo natal de Yoncalla, Oregon, Estados Unidos, familiares y amigos lo despedirán en una ceremonia religiosa, donde estarán presentes sus
cenizas.
Mientras esto ocurrirá hoy en Estados Unidos, en La Paz, los agentes de Seguridad Pública de Los Cabos: José Luis Flores, Ariosto Gómez Vázquez y
Francisco Javier Martínez; el Oficial de Barandilla, Emilio Ramírez Teodosio; el Radio Operador, Luis Norberto Rosas Rosas y el comandante de grupo
Martín Burgoín Olachea, cumplirán apenas una semana de arraigo autorizado por el Juez.
Por su parte la Procuraduría General de Justicia del Estado -PGJE- confirmó que la integración de la averiguación previa por la muerte del
estadounidense Sam Botner, esta por concluirse, y confían que con las pruebas aportadas, declaraciones y testimoniales, el Juez tenga los elementos
suficientes para proceder en contra de los policías.
La Dirección General de Seguridad Pública y Tránsito Municipal de Los Cabos, a cargo de Apolinar Ledesma Arreola, distribuyo entre los mandos
superiores de la corporación un Manual de Procedimientos para la Detención y Traslado de los Detenidos, esto para evitar más hechos de sangre.
"Después del niño ahogado, tapan el pozo"
Fernando Castillo Domínguez
This article is about a service in Oregon for Mr. Botner
It states that the policemen are in La Paz.
It also says that the judge has enough evidence to proceed against the policemen.
The last saying is interesting.
"After the child has drowned, they cover the well."
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cabokid
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Talked to a person that saw this man Botner running around the complex in which he was staying acting crazy yelling and screaming with a knife in his
hand . He cut or stabbed another renter and wanted to fight anyone in his path .Police were called in which Botner still having knife in hand refused
to comply with police. The poliice managed to jump on him but not without a fight first and resisted arrest.
Don't know what took place after in jail and surely he didn't deserve to die but the whole story is not what you read.
I've seen here in the states where in this situtation the police shoot first and then ask questions. I wonder if they had to do over again if they
would take a different approch
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