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Bajafun777
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Posts: 1103
Registered: 9-13-2006
Location: Rosarito & California
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Ok, it is not about legalizing drugs that solves anything but more druggies and crime. The education part is one element that is needed, counseling
is B.S. to the most part but A.A. and N.A. go to heart of the problem makes them admit it or until they do then the problem continues, jobs are the
big one and job training is a vital part of getting people away from drugs and crime. I have worked with thousands of youths, young adults, and the
26-50 range which jobs and job training turned more of them around than anything else. You still need short term incarceration to clean their system
out, to uncloud their mind for the new venture of A.A., N.A., job training, weekly drug testing, job programs even if just minimum wage, as at least
it is a start to instill some self respect and motivation to go on to better jobs with the skills they attain.
Mexico has the U.S.A. beat on the vocational training schools as when they complete their training they can go work along tradesmen in whatever field
they were trained on. Even in our own California Education Code their is a section that allows the U.S. and Mexico to utilize each others vocational
education exchange programs but we do not as we have all of these liability issues that make attorneys rich. I have seen how putting a person off the
park bench and onto a job makes a difference in someone you would cross the street to avoid before this happened. I seen the first time youths get a
check for their honest labor not their crime labor how they wait to get out the door and start jumping up and down laughing and shaking each others
hands. To be able to work gives you self respect and high school studies of history, government, etc. is not for everyone. Being totally
vocationally trained as electricians, mechanics, geothermal workers, construction workers, solar installers, wind generator installers, welders, road
crews, etc. can make them a better living than as a high school dropout that could not get the general subject studies. Now, we can debate how much
more their lives would be enriched if they had this experience but dropping out of school and society is not the answer either as we know what this
brings to society. So just because this is the way we always have done it is not the best way now. We should use our old closed military bases to
put those that have criminal arrests that continue time and time again to be forced in A.A., N.A., meaningful job training problems and then placed
out on jobs paid minimum wage by the government doing road repair, conservation in our forests to prevent fires by clearing all of the underbrush,
preparing areas to prevent or lessen flooding to low areas during storms, cleaning painting and upgrading our city, county, state, and federal park
systems. We spend millions of dollars on fires in California and the rest of the western states and taking these types of programs on would probably
reduce those fires and why not train them to help fight these kinds of forest fires while we are at it. I do not think sending a small time user to
prison is the answer but the above, in my years of work in this area, is the answer to turn a whole lot of drug problem people around. We will
always have those that will use drugs, steal you and their own families blind no matter how much help they were given, do armed robberies, rape, and
other harmful things to people and we definately need to lock their butts up for as long as the law will permit. Some people are just mean and all
the feel good behavior health counseling, blaming society for their ills, etc. is just the crutch they want as they see "kindness as weakness" and
will take you for every inch of whatever you have and still do you harm. Now, with that said Mexico is only implementing programs we also have in
place and could also utilize some of these suggested above. We release youths and adults back to Mexico that are bringing kilos of the stuff over,
believe me I don't like it but the federal judges think they have too much in their courtrooms and push what they call small amounts right back across
the border by deportation. Mexico is right in that this drug addiction is our problem but they are one of the sources that underminds our attempts to
control it with prevention by their crooks getting this poison into our Country. Later-----bajafun777
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dao45
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Do you really believe there is a solution?
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Bajafun777
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Location: Rosarito & California
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If you are asking me dao45 not a 100% solution but I believe the things I wrote in this post have a higher degree of success than running stings in
neighborhoods or drug sweeps. I have what I wrote above turn more lives around than those I dealt with going on to prison, it works and is less
expensive than prisons. I do not thing any of us resent giving a person a hand- up but we do resent giving them a lifetime hand out. Now, I do think
from time to time those things are necessary to get the 8% who want to do you, me, our friends, and family harm off the streets and back in very
secure structured environments with others of similar interests as theirs.
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Packoderm
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| Quote: | Originally posted by vandenberg
| Quote: | Originally posted by Packoderm
At the very least - just copy what Switzerland is doing. They don't seem to have drug wars raging in the streets. |
No, they have the druggies strung out all through the city parks.
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Are you talking about "needle park" which was closed in 1992?
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Eugenio
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Switzerland's situation is totally different from that of the US - it doesn't have thousands of miles of border with a corrupt third world country.
(yes - I know - the US has it's own issues with corruption - but it ain't in the league as Mexico and parts south.)
Switzerland's philosophy has been to treat and not agressivelly prosecute users. But they still go after dealers and trafficers.
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gnukid
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Eugenio, this is BS. CIA/Banks/Drugs is a profitable game. Mexico is a pawn.
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Iflyfish
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Bajafun777 and I as well as many on this board have direct experience with the positive effects of vocational intervention strategies with addict and
criminal justice populations. Addicts need ALTERNATIVES to their lifestyle that involve activities such as that Skeet proposes. If one is to change
then one must engage in other activities that substitute for those that we are stopping.
Human beings need to have fun, and engage in other activities that change their mood and consciousness. Tobacco, Alcohol, Pot, Cocaine, Pumpkin Pie,
Ice Cream, Exercise, Fishing, Sex, and Chocolate etc. all change our moods and are sources of pleasure. Human beings are addictive animals.... that
will not change. We seek pleasure and avoid pain...unless of course the two are linked.....you will have to go to other sites for info on this. (humor
folks, I digress)
I am afraid that discussions like this get off track because there are actually a number of issues being addressed at the same time. This is a
multifaceted issue and no single solution will solve all of the problems. Tobacco, marijuana, peyote, and coca are all plants that grow in the wild.
These plants will never be eradicated nor their use eliminated.
The USofA has been VERY successful with decreasing tobacco smoking. This is an indisputable fact. The use of tobacco in other countries such as China
and India is increasing, but not so in the USofA. I believe it is instructive to look carefully at how this has happened. The US Government has
supported tobacco production since the early days of it's existence. The government is intimately involved in tobacco production, regulation and
distribution. The Government is at the same time highly involved in efforts to reduce tobacco useage due to it's significant negative effect on
health, productivity and cost of providing services to the victims of its abuse.
What are the elements of this success? First there is government regulation, taxation and control of distribution of the product. There are clear laws
for the implementation of these laws. There is adequate supply of the product for those using it. There are laws that clearly address where and in
what circumstances this product can be used. There is public education about the negative effects of the use of this product. There has developed a
SOCIAL STIGMA against the offensive use of this product. There is education in the schools about the harm of this product. Young people are educated
about how tobacco decreases ones health and enjoyment of life.
Legalization only addresses the issue of production and distribution of this product. Legalization is an attempt to regulate the product, its
production and distribution in an attempt to take the criminal element out of the business. There is the potential of decreasing the open warfare that
now exists in our communities by decriminalizing and regulating this industry. This would be of social benefit to all of us.
With legalization there continues to exist the issue of how to address the problems generated by those people who abuse these drugs. I would say that
it is time that we listen to people like Bajafun777 who have personal experience with remediating the problems of people who have abused and become
addicted to drugs. There is a body of research on the subject. Part of the problem is that as a society we have denigrated the value of research in
favor of value and opinion based decisions. There are strategies that work to help people with addiction problems. These approaches must include some
sort of REAL opportunity for education, training and jobs in addition to psychological support of the sort offered by AA, NA etc. It is important to
understand that no single approach will solve this problem. We will need a multifaceted approach to dealing with abuse and addiction REGARDLESS of
legalization or not. Simply jailing people does not work. Increasing the War on Drugs does not work. Our communities are the battle grounds for this
"War".
(On a personal note I would take a hundred "needle parks" over one incident of a grenade being thrown into a crowd of innocent people. Such acts of
violence are terrorism. These acts violate the freedom of us all. I know others will disagree with this value, but that's ok, it is not my major point
here. Unfortunately this might be one of the choices we will be making as it it true that addicts usually need to "hit bottom" before changing their
behavior. However creating a legitimate supply for their addictions keeps these folks from breaking into my car or house to steal my electronic
equipment etc.)
We must accept the fact that there will always be people who use and abuse tobacco. We cannot completely eliminate the use of a weed by those who want
to use it. We should also not use arguments against parts of the solution to a multifaceted problem because it does not solve the ENTIRE problem.
I am pleased that this dialogue is happening in a public forum and appreciates the thoughtful responses. I am relieved that Calderon is looking at
alternatives to the self defeating “War on Drugs”; let’s hope that the USofA is not far behind.
Iflyfish
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Skeet/Loreto
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uflyfish:
That is one othe best Post on the Drug Problem that I have ever read.
Have any of you Posters ever visited Culican MX? It is a very interesting place.
Are any of you aware of any small Town or Community in the States whose residents have "Kicked the Druggies out" ??
Does our dependence on our Goverment, Fear instilled by Teachers, TV, caused our Culture become a Culture of Escape??
After Prohibition, this Country Grew with no bounds,fought several Wars, produced like no other Country, then, and this is my opinion, the 60's came
along producing the "If it feels good, just do it", whereby People Felt better when they used Drugs.
Escapeism, Fear, Lack of Control for ones Actions,Lack of Punishment for Wrongdoing,.
No having used Drugs I cannot relate to a users Feelings, I just know that My Highs come from the Natural World such as The Sea, The Sunrise and
Sunsets, an Eagle Soaring, a Frog Hoping, a Child Laughing etc.
Skeet
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Cypress
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Solution to the drug war? Surrender! Yep! Legalize 'em. In 6 weeks the drug "problem" will be history. There'll be some PO'd drug dealers etc., but they'll get over it.
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Iflyfish
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Skeet
I am pleased that you found my post on the Drug Problem the best that you have ever read on the subject. Sometimes it is worth it I guess to express
one's point of view. I would love to fish with you one day, you have had thrilling adventures in Baja and continue to do so.
You have frequently posted that you "don't get it" related to drug use, you pose lost of possible reasons for drug use i.e. " Escapeism, Fear, Lack of
Control for ones Actions,Lack of Punishment for Wrongdoing". I am going to take what you say at face value, that you really don't get it and that you
are not just trying to apply your values to the issue.
Have you ever considered that the wonder you feel on the sea and the thrill you feel with the hook up and release are ways that you change your
consciousness and provide your body pleasure? You put a lot of time, energy, effort and dare I say money into your habit. This is why people take
drugs, it feels good. It just feels good. It is important to recognize and acknowledge this if one is to address changing ones source of feeling good.
If drugs did not feel good people would not use them to the extent that they are. I believe that it is important to move beyond blaming people for
their abuse of substances and look at what they are really providing for people. They provide pleasure......I know that after one becomes addicted
that one uses to feel "normal", however the motivation is to feel pleasure. It is human nature......think about this, simply human nature.
Once one recognizes that it is simply human nature to seek pleasure and not a moral issue, then one can start to think about solutions that provide
the pleasure and minimize the harm. We aught to be thinking about how to minimize harm rather than how to stomp out the pleasure. I hope that you can
better empathize with the drug user, maybe understand him/her better, so that you can start to help those people rather than condemn them. How can you
ever offer a real solution to people who you say you do not understand?
I am neither condemning fishing nor drug use here, only making the point that both are engaged in for fun....to change the feeling in the body....to
engage in behavior that is designed to provide pleasure. If we understand the problem, then we may be better equiped to provide a solution.
I once met a guy in Barre de Navidad, where I used to fish for Marlin (268lb) and Dorado (68lb), and I met a German who would come annually to fish
for the Marlin. He totally ignored his current girlfriend, he seemed to have a different one each year. He would trash his intimate relationships to
fish for Marlin. He alienated me and many more with his highly competative behavior and demeanor. My point is that he was in my view addicted to the
goal of beating the record of anyone who had caught a bigger Marlin come hell or high water...a real addiction...he seemed joyless to me in his
pursuit and I never saw him smile. I helped save his life and he expressed ZERO gratitute, just pimped my friend to take him fishing. I think that
drugs are this way...like a fine cigar, a hot dorado, a good bottle of wine, a nice fresh joint etc. in moderation a real pleasure, used to obsession
a real problem. Have you heard the term Hunting and Fishing widows? Have you seen the problems created when the husband returns and the truth outs?
Damage.....relationship and brain damage. Apply this to drugs and you might start to "get it".
I have been to Culiacán, great Chinese food there! What is your point? Is it the fact that it is home to major drug trafficers that has you mentioning
this beautiful city? Are you suggesting that Culiacán has "kicked the druggies out"? They have not.
Are you linking Prohibition with the growth of the USofA economy? It thought it was the end of the era of the Robber Barons/ Trusts and the New
Deal/WWII and the period of peace after it that ushered us into so much growth. Maybe it was Prohibition?? (sarcasm, irony, humor, another aside), I
doubt it, timing is off a bit.
Thanks for your thoughtful post.
Iflyfish
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JaraHurd
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Man a lot of you folks seem to have an abundance of free time (Iflyfish..etc.). Maybe I should just be a liberal and give up on everything. The war on
drugs, the war in Iraq..etc. Just give up. You know what the libs like to stick on their cars.."War is Not the Answer" Wow. Problem is..they have NO
IDEA what the answer is...just like being mouthy I guess. No, some things are worth fighting over and for. I support the "stupid" war on drugs. I
don't find it too hard to obey laws like not shooting up herion or selling coke or meth. I know a lot of liberals who love to smoke pot. You should
meet their children...scary.....
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
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JaraHurd,
It does take time to read, think and write. I have the honor of retirement from a long career and I guess still a need to express my thoughts. Writing
in this way is my way NOT to give up on everything. It is not easy at times to express complex ideas or to face the inevitable ire that ones opinions
can inspire, particularly on a subject as laden with feelings as this one. I also beleive that it is my responsibility as a person to share my
knowledge and experience with others as others on this site do with me and you. This is how we form community. We are part of this community called
BajaNomads and we share a lot with eachother that relates to our love of Baja. Baja and the rest of Mexico are struggling with some very serious
problems that this topic involves and having some experience in the matter I believe that I might be able to shed some light on some possible
solutions.
If one has only a hammer then all problems become nails. Applying the hammer to glass does not have a good outcome. I know that it is frustrating to
think beyond reactions....just bomb the crap out of them....fill in the blank...however war is a failure, always a failure....in the case of
nations...a failure of diplomacy. Read the great Chinese book Art of War....very old and very wise.....it advocates first and foremost diplomacy. Have
you read that Iraq wants us to leave?? Odd isn't it??? They want us to leave. That is what this latest negotiation is about...they want us to leave.
We are in the process of negotiating HOW to leave, not whether or not we are leaving.
As to the children of Liberals, you have to be joking. Can you imagine discussing your problems with Rush Limbaugh if he were your father? How about
old Bill O'Reilly, I am sure he would listen just as well....Savage, now there is someone who a kid would really love! Give me a break.
IflyfishreadandwriteintheleasuretimethatIhaveearnedbymygoodeducationandveryhardworkformanymanyyears
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JaraHurd
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To each his own I guess. Having been intimately close to many stories in my local news, I know that what I read or watch or listen to in the media is
RARELY accurate. I can imagine how distorted news about issues overseas is.
I have neither the time nor desire to discuss this at length because I am tired having spent another 14 hour day battling crime and drugs. I am tired
about hearing about how drug users are nonviolent and in need of help. Who actually writes stuff like that? Maybe the pot smokers you know are
nonviolent (or so u think..) but the speed freaks I deal with are frequently violent with each other and sometimes strangers.
I imagine that the average person would rather have me for a neighbor than a pot smoker any day. I dont make a lot of noise, never steal from anyone
and dont smoke anything. I have never been on welfare and actually pay taxes. I fish a little, bbq a little and often help marooons in my community
who have had too much to drink and crash into fixed objects (I live on a busy street). I have had a full time job since I was 17 years old. I don't
know what kind of career you had but I am not hardened or insensitive. I don't even know for sure which presidential candidate I am voting for for
sure (although I will probably vote for the one who won't nominate ultra liberal justices to our Supreme Court....) But I do know that in my 46th year
of life I am very tired of irresponsible people who simply want to pleasure themselves. I am all for people with a sense of responsibility and
accountablilty. And my first name is Jon.
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Skeet/Loreto
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Jon: Very well said!
Most of you Posters are very good with the Written word, I am very lacking in that skill so must go to my Experiences to relate .
NATURE;If, as some beleive, that we are descended from Animals then why do not animals seek an Unatural Substance for Pleasure??
Where does this overlying desire for PLEASURE come about to regulate Life itself to the Bottom of the Pile??
"Circumscribe my Desires and keep my Passions within Due Bounds"
thanks to all
Skeet
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k-rico
Super Nomad
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Location: Playas de Tijuana
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Some really interesting posts. It's Sunday morning and I'm sitting here feeding two of my three chemical addictions, caffeine and nicotine. Later
today I'll probably drink some alcohol. A few beers while watching football on the garage TV while I'm turning perfectly good wood into sawdust is a
regular thing.
Legalizing harder drugs, harder to control consumption, harder on your physical and mental well being seems to me to be a bad idea. Addicts of meth,
coke, and heroin are in for a sorry, short, useless life, that damages not only themselves but all too often innocent others.
The war on drugs has been successful at turning organized crime into disorganized crime with orders of magnitude more violence. It hasn't stopped the
crime, it has increased it. I don't know how the numbers of drug users has changed, I suspect it depends upon locality and the type of drugs.
Years ago qualudes (sp?) were a popular street pill. Not anymore because the government was successful at eliminating the manufacture of the precursor
chemicals. The same could be done with meth. I read that Mexico imports/manufactures twice as many cold pills that are used in its manufacture than
could possibly be used for treating colds/allergies. The pharmaceutical companies know what's going on and are profiting. There are just a handful of
chemical companies that make ephedra, the basic stuff these pills are made from and meth is made from. They sell it by the 50 gallon drum. They know
it is being bought for meth manufacture and profit from it. They will sell it to just about anybody. There is a company in India that is a big
culprit.
For meth, a huge problem and a very nasty drug, the "war on drugs" could at least go after the legal, "respectable" pharmaceutical and chemical
businesses that make its existence possible.
[Edited on 10-19-2008 by k-rico]
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JaraHurd
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Skeet. Your written communications seem fine to me. I also don't consider myself much of a writer. But I do contribute in my own way. I try to be a
good person. I TRY to keep an open mind. But I am SO TIRED of hearing about how we need to give more aid to people who put themselves in the
situations that they find themselves. I am much more open to aid to people who can't help their circumstance..such as developmentally disable persons.
I moved into my current neighborhood four years ago. The house across the street was formerly owned by an elderly (and very quiet...I like quiet!!!)
lady. Her nephew is a doper but I will get back to that... Anyway, she passed away about a year later. The house was either bought or inherited by her
nephew. He claims to be a "recovering" addict. So he wanted to "give back" to the community. So what he did was buy about 12-16 cots and set up the
house as a halfway house recovering addicts (parolees and probationers). Wonderful! So the City tried to start an abatement on the house after the
crime rate started to rise (you think???) and they did not feel it was a good idea to have 12-16 drug addicts who were on parole and probation living
in a nice residential neighborhood full of working people within TWO blocks of an elementary school and six blocks of a high school.
Much to the City's surprise, they found out that "recovering" addicts fall within the ADA and they could not evict ANYONE! ! Isn't that awesome! Kudos
to the ACLU!!! So about twice a year the local SWAT team wakes me up at 3 in the morning as they conduct raids on that house. I have no idea but I
will bet you some money that the Republican Party was not responsible for the loophole that allows that marooon to run that house in the midst of a
hard working middle class neighborhood. By the way, the racial make up of the house is 95% caucasian in case any liberals out there are thinking along
racial lines. Criminals are criminals, dopers are criminals (or atleast low-lifes who I do not want to live near) and that is the way I see it.
Most of my neighbors are liberals. But after this little experience some of them are scratching their collective heads. I am not a hateful person but
I admit I am not overly patient either. I just have little sympathy for dopers and drunks. I honestly think people just like to whine about the laws
that are on the books and what a drag government is. ..I understand that many of you believe the government is corrupt but honestly, that is beyond
my control. I do my part, I try to set a good example to youngster, I try not to curse in front of minor and I mostly obey traffic laws (mostly...). I
don't even keep all of the fish I catch anymore (but I do eat some!!). Jon
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JaraHurd
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Parenting
..and I believe parenting is a big part of the solution. BUT..what if a parent occasionally smokes weed..what kind of parent do u really believe that
person is???? It's ridiculous.. I am starting to beleive more and more that this is all part of God's great plan. We are just not supposed to give up.
But we aren't supposed to judge either and that is where I am falling down. A whole lot of answers out there, not a lot of solutions.
Oh..and it is obvious to me why SOME of you chose to live or visit Mexico so much. Do you really think Baja benefits from visitors who use drugs? I
think not.....
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JaraHurd
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Short Lives?
K-Rico..I am feeling you. But you would be amazed how long these people actually live...atleast some of them. I come into contact with many of them
daily. Some actually seem to be otherwise intelligent and good people. Otherwise. MUch like the gangsters I meet, I don't agree with what they are
doiong but I wonder what kind of people they would have been if their circumstances (OR PARENTS!!!) in life had been ....different.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
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Skeet
"NATURE;If, as some beleive, that we are descended from Animals then why do not animals seek an Unatural Substance for Pleasure??"
Ever seen a cat with the weed catnip? We used to eagerly await the fall and the fermenting of the pyracantha berries. The robbins love those things
and after eating enough are drunker than lords, stumble drunk, fall down drunk...we are not talking genteel drunks either....no bowel control.
Animals are easily addicted to alcohol as is well documented by animal studies.
This post started with gnukids post of an article that reports that the President of Mexico is proposing a major shift in drug policy. If enacted this
legislation will have a significant effect on all of us living on both sides of the border. My comments are not made in advocacy of drug use, but in
advocacy for a change in policy that could potentially take the war off the streets. There may indeed be unanticipated consequences and it may take a
very long time for public stigma to become attached to drug use sufficient to modify its use, as has occurred with tobacco. I don't think anyone can
truthfully say that the "War on Drugs" has been a success. I don't buy the argument that it has been successful because now there is inter gang
warfare. That is even worse. Escalation of the problem is not evidence of its resolution from my perspective.
I cast no aspersions on anyone who has posted on this site. I can understand and appreciate the discouragement and anger of someone who has had their
neighborhood blighted by a drug house. I know firsthand the horrors of drug addiction and abuse. I am no stranger to any of this. None of us are.
The choice as it appears to me is legalization which might stop the street violence that at this point risks the very existence of the Country of
Mexico vs. the development of a multi faceted approach to the difficult problem of recreational drug use as well as the other end of the continuum
that is addiction. Drug use will NEVER end and we cannot gauge success using such a criteria. People will always seek pleasure thru drug use. This is
not advocacy; this is the acknowledgement of reality.
Because I speak and write well does not negate what I am saying and I don’t like the implication that somehow articulate speech is somehow
obfuscation. I do apologize for my difficulty with brevity, I really wish I could write like Osprey or be as pithy as Skeet.
Iflyfish
I don't have much more to share on this subject.
Iflyfish
[Edited on 10-19-2008 by Iflyfish]
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Packoderm
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I might buy what JaraHurd says if he would extend it to our legal drugs today such as caffeine, nicotine, simple sugars, and alcohol. There would be
lost, violent lives to those substances if they were outlawed, stigmatized, and found only on the black market. Most of the problems with drugs center
with the illicitness of them. Sure, meth is horrible, but meth combined with an illicit meth culture is a tragedy.
Losing these theoretical wars: Is that what you guys said about abandoning the war on poverty? Did we just give up?
As far as Iraq goes, we wouldn't be so much giving up, but we would instead be re-channeling our efforts toward the Afghanistan area until we capture
Bin Ladin who has made a laughing stock out of us.
What would a head of a household do if he declared war on ants, but later found out it was actually the termites that were causing damage? Should he
"stay the course" out of principle alone?
Did we "lose" the war on alcohol or just come to our senses? If we're going to kick a nasty addiction, we need to get off the petroleum. We could
fight that war without mayhem in the streets and lost liberties.
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