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Barry A.
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Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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I find it disturbing, and pretty amazing that some of you think that "we cannot effect change"----------of course you can, and do, effect
"change"----------by voting the way you do, by living the way you do, by standing up in your local community for what you think is right, by not
turning away from what you know is wrong and simply confronting it, by dozens of ways too numerous to list------------all that "effects change", it
seems to me.
People get what the permit to happen-------I believe that with all my heart!
Did not the more liberal souls out there just effect "change" in the most recent USA election???? I think so-------tho it is not the change that I
would have wanted, it will be interesting and perhaps helpful to see what the new Administration can bring about.
I await that, with an open mind--------------
Stay tuned.
Barry
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woody with a view
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Registered: 11-8-2004
Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
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Mood: Everchangin'
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
I find it disturbing, and pretty amazing that some of you think that "we cannot effect change"----------of course you can, and do, effect
"change"----------by voting the way you do, by living the way you do, by standing up in your local community for what you think is right, by not
turning away from what you know is wrong and simply confronting it, by dozens of ways too numerous to list------------all that "effects change", it
seems to me.
People get what the permit to happen-------I believe that with all my heart!
Did not the more liberal souls out there just effect "change" in the most recent USA election???? I think so-------tho it is not the change that I
would have wanted, it will be interesting and perhaps helpful to see what the new Administration can bring about.
I await that, with an open mind--------------
Stay tuned.
Barry |
and this has nothing to do with the topic presented above....BTW, Barry how have you EFFECTED change in mexico's war on the cartel? telling a kid to
"just say no" doesn't really work when you extrapolate it to an entire culture...
just my imagination?
edit: i'm not saying that the american culture is any better...i.e. not trying to be the pot calling the kettle black. just that one person isn't big
enough to change the world.....
[Edited on 12-10-2008 by woody in ob]
[Edited on 12-10-2008 by woody in ob]
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shari
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Posts: 13048
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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what you said Tony...very articulate.
Most of us who live here have either lost someone to or have been impacted by cartel violence...it's everywhere. We are all reflecting on how to be
safer...where to eat, sleep and drink, who we associate with, how and where we recreate...and we are all being much more careful on all fronts and
truly wonder where it will all end.
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Dave
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Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
When we talk of trying legalization, we are talking about taking away the profit motive. People who resist this idea always have a
"Yes, but....." Well, none of the "buts" are as bad or as acute as what is happening in Mexico.
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If I thought that legalization would eliminate cartel profits and end the violence I would support it. In the States the end of prohibition didn't
signal the end of the mafia. Decades later it was tough law and penalties (RICO) that did the trick.
Explain it to me.
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standingwave
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Posts: 182
Registered: 11-10-2007
Location: Lytton, Canada
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| Quote: |
If I thought that legalization would eliminate cartel profits and end the violence I would support it. In the States the end of prohibition didn't
signal the end of the mafia. Decades later it was tough law and penalties (RICO) that did the trick.
Explain it to me. |
hmm... didn't the end of prohibition of the sale and consumption of alcohol lead to the mafia switching their activities to the drug trade?
\"I could not help concluding this man had the most supreme pleasure while he was driven so fast and so smoothly by the sea.\"
James Cook |
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toneart
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Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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Mood: Skeptical
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
I find it disturbing, and pretty amazing that some of you think that "we cannot effect change"----------of course you can, and do, effect
"change"----------by voting the way you do, by living the way you do, by standing up in your local community for what you think is right, by not
turning away from what you know is wrong and simply confronting it, by dozens of ways too numerous to list------------all that "effects change", it
seems to me.
People get what the permit to happen-------I believe that with all my heart!
Did not the more liberal souls out there just effect "change" in the most recent USA election???? I think so-------tho it is not the change that I
would have wanted, it will be interesting and perhaps helpful to see what the new Administration can bring about.
I await that, with an open mind--------------
Stay tuned.
Barry |
Barry,
The inability to effect change was an exchange between Woody and me, within the context of our influence here on The Nomad Board. Outside of the
confines of this board discussion, of course we can effect political change within The United States....and we did! 
I hope this doesn't get hijacked off the topic at hand.
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SunloverBaja
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Registered: 12-10-2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
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I feel for the people of Baja.My family and one of our friends had shared a vacation home since 1999 south of TJ.We were lucky enough to sell it to
one of our Mexican friends in August of this year for a lot less than what it was worth but for more than we paid for it. Since late last year,my
wife had decided that it was dangerous and somewhat irresponsible of us as parents to bring our two children down to Baja with the amount of random
violence happening.
We love Baja and love the people but it was becoming harder to convince ourselves that things would get better.We will return when authorities take
back the country and keep their promise of security and justice for all people who make Mexico their home.
We will continue to miss Mexico and her people and will follow any news we get here on this board and online . We will continue to pray for all those
left behind and hope for the good people to win this battle.
Rob and Cindy Boyd
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ELINVESTIG8R
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Registered: 11-20-2007
Location: Southern California
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I am sorry to be the one to have to say this but the only way to stop the violence in Mexico is to fight drug cartels with extreme government
violence. You cannot ask a cartel killer armed with a fully automatic rifle to please stop killing people. Legalizing drugs will not stop it, nor will
praying to Jesus or God stop it. The only solution is to be meaner and stronger than the drug cartel killers and clean their clocks.
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Dave
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Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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OK...Back on topic
| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
I hope this doesn't get hijacked off the topic at hand. |
| Quote: | David Danelo writes:
When 45,000 federal troops are outgunned and outspent by opponents of uncertain but robust size, the state's legitimacy quickly deteriorates.
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Hogwash. The Mexican armed forces are neither outgunned or outspent. Their commanders are outwilled.
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Barry A.
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Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
Barry,
The inability to effect change was an exchange between Woody and me, within the context of our influence here on The Nomad Board. Outside of the
confines of this board discussion, of course we can effect political change within The United States....and we did!
I hope this doesn't get hijacked off the topic at hand. |
Tony------My comments, to me, were completely within the parameters of the original thrust of this thread, and said in a generic way to apply to ALL
cultures and Nations.
No change will really occur until the majority of peoples "take a stand" for, or against, what they want changed.
I tend to agree with Elvester18 ----------
Barry
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Bajaboy
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Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
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I tend to agree with Barry. I hear too many people on both sides of the border talk about ending the violence. Here in San Diego, some teens were
shot and killed. There is a huge uproar about ending the violence. But my question to this group and to an extent those in Baja, what are you
prepared to do? Are you going to turn in your friend who is doing drugs? What about your brother who you know is in a gang...are you willing to turn
on him? What about the guy doing work on your house at below market rates because he got a "good deal" on some stolen supplies? What about saying no
more to the gangsta glamour that has taken over our airwaves and televisions?
Nothing will change in my opinion until we have said no more to some of these issues. It starts with each one of us. It's not the cartels, it's us
that is allowing this violence to continue.
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DianaT
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Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
I tend to agree with Barry. I hear too many people on both sides of the border talk about ending the violence. Here in San Diego, some teens were
shot and killed. There is a huge uproar about ending the violence. But my question to this group and to an extent those in Baja, what are you
prepared to do? Are you going to turn in your friend who is doing drugs? What about your brother who you know is in a gang...are you willing to turn
on him? What about the guy doing work on your house at below market rates because he got a "good deal" on some stolen supplies? What about saying no
more to the gangsta glamour that has taken over our airwaves and televisions?
Nothing will change in my opinion until we have said no more to some of these issues. It starts with each one of us. It's not the cartels, it's us
that is allowing this violence to continue. |
Some of us have turned in family gang members and drug addicts---some of us have had very personal experiences with same. Some of us have lived with
the destruction of human life and families more from the crime involved than the addiction---the crime to obtain the money for the drugs.
Addict and cartel---money and violence. Tony said it all best, but to legalize would not eliminate all crime ---but this so called war on drugs in
BOTH countries is a joke---time to go back to the time many years ago when many of the current illegal drugs were NOT illegal. Still destroyed a lot
of lives, but without the crime and violence.
Diane
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Woooosh
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Posts: 5240
Registered: 1-28-2007
Location: Rosarito Beach
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Mood: Luminescent Waves at Rosarito Beach
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
I realize this is old news but, what hope is there for a government to fight corruption when the government is most corrupt?
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Except it's not just the government. The corruption is pandemic. |
IMHO- the corruption problem has grass roots- from the bottom up. It's their way of distributing wealth because the guy on the other end is an
underpaid civil servant.
If I leave a bag of treats on the floor- I don't blame my dog for eating them all. If Mexicans have culturally accepted bribery as legitimate, you
can't blame the system for taking advantage of them. Of course eventually the dog gets used to the whole bag of treats and demands them.
"With Operation Cleanup, we will continue acting against police, agents, public ministers or any servant implicated in corruption who may have crossed
over the line to crime."
The problem extends beyond bureaucracy. A poll by the organization International Transparency shows that Mexico is one of the emerging countries where
businesses are more open to paying bribes. In all, 38 percent of Mexican businesses surveyed said they tended to use relationships with friends or
relatives to obtain public contracts, and 32 percent said they had bribed politicians and government workers.
"Clearly, this lends itself to corruption," said Jose Claudio Trevino, a senior manager with Ernst & Young in Mexico. Corruption is rampant in the
private sector, particularly in deals that involve buying or selling, he said.
According to official studies, more than 100 million acts of corruption are committed in the country each year, and the typical family spends the
equivalent of 25 percent of its income on bribes. "
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/12/09/mexico.corr...
[Edited on 12-11-2008 by Woooosh]
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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woody with a view
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Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
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| Quote: |
According to official studies, more than 100 million acts of corruption are committed in the country each year, and the typical family spends the
equivalent of 25 percent of its income on bribes. "
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sorry....
if this is true there is NO hope!!!
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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An unfair analogy
| Quote: | Originally posted by Woooosh
If I leave a bag of treats on the floor- I don't blame my dog for eating them all. |
Dogs cannot discern right from wrong.
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toneart
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Of course!
Attack all of these affronts of corruption.That is a factor in all of this. But that is a battle that will take generations to overcome. It is
ingrained into the culture. It is what makes the wheels turn in Mexico.
Turn in whomever, but only if you fully realize the potential consequences. That is up to the individual. If you have a family, those are loved ones
you have to consider. I think it is beyond that stage. The evil recriminations are too foreboding. Principle will not prevent you from ending up
headless. That would be the final chapter in your principles, your morality, your strong will and your your outrage. Don't forget; your brain gets
lopped off along with your head. Your attitude will be severely truncated.
Yes! Battle drug addiction. Intervene. Educate. Don't give up. There is no reason why all these battles can't be fought simultaneously.
All I am saying is to try something new. Prioritize. Think clearly.
Sure, these thugs will find other illicit activities if drugs are legalized, but their profit motive in drugs will be compromised. Their respective
organization will be more fragmented, rendering them weaker and more vulnerable. Easier to pick off.
First things first. Diffuse, Fragment, confuse, but stop the current momentum of violence! Then deal with what comes next. Be smart! 
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toneart
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Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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There is hope!
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Woooosh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by Woooosh
If I leave a bag of treats on the floor- I don't blame my dog for eating them all. |
Dogs cannot discern right from wrong. |
My dogs know which behaviors they get rewarded for and which behaviors they don't. Someone has to be the trainer though.
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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Barry A.
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Location: Redding, Northern CA
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toneArt------------Very well said, and I think you are on to something here.
Barry
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
First things first. Diffuse, Fragment, confuse, but stop the current momentum of violence! Then deal with what comes next. Be smart! |
Well said, Tony, very well said. Makes me wonder though.......does anybody have any idea the size of the enemy? Does anybody know their strength?
They seem to be asserting themselves in new territory lately. Between the government and the enemy, who has the most soldiers, the most guns, the
most money? Has anybody seen intel or qualified opinions in regard to these questions? I don't know that there are answers at this time but, it
seems necessary to know these things before a strategy can be formed.
Anyway, I think "Good" is going against an "Evil" the likes of which have never been seen before.
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