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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by The Gull
Can we count the number of countries who are currently destroyed because of the US drug culture? |
You're right on that, Gull, but the consumer is only part of the problem. To lay all blame on the U.S. user would be the same as attributing all of
today's bank problems to the real estate buyer. It's just not the full picture.
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Stickers
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It is simplistic to blame users.
If a bank is robbed you cant blame them for the robbery because they keep money there.
You cant blame a women when she is assaulted because she is pretty.
"We" the U.S. spends billions of dollars at the border trying to keep drugs from crossing.
I was once told by a heroin addict that if he had marijuana available he would not need to score drugs in the streets, use dirty syringes and avoid
potentially horrible diseases like Aids??
Maybe easing availability of medical marijuana can stem the demand from over the border. There already are numerous licenced legal growers in
California and that should make Mexican imported 'pot' less profitable and at least take that profit motive away from the cartels.
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Stickers
It is simplistic to blame users.
If a bank is robbed you cant blame them for the robbery because they keep money there.
You cant blame a women when she is assaulted because she is pretty.
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Apples and oranges!
The robber of Banks wants money, therefore he is the guilty one.
Those who assualt women think somehow they are entitled to do that, and want "it", therefore they are the guilty ones.
The "user" thinks he must have drugs, therefore he is the guilty one.
If none of these three types carried out their irresponsible desires there would be NO problem.
I repeat, take the users out, and there is no problem. The weight of the problem lies squarely on the shoulders of the user.
Barry
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bajajazz
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LONG BEACH PORT OF ENTRY
During his presidency Bill Clinton made what I considered a potentially disastrous mistake in permitting the sale of warehouse and docking facilities
in Long Beach to Red China.
I have always thought it highly likely that guns and the precursor chemicals used to make speed and refine heroin are being shipped by the container
load from China to Long Beach to Mexico.
I can't visualize the thousands of illegal weapons floating around Mexico being brought into the country one-by-one in the trunk or under the hood of
some hood's car. But I sure as hell find it easy to visualize containers full of cheaply made AK-47s being waved through border checkpoints by
customs officials who have had their palms greased by the cartels.
Regardless of where the guns and drugs are coming from, the only way to win this socalled "war on drugs" is to move to harm reduction policies then to
decriminalization then to legalization and taxation. As someone on this board has astutely pointed out, bootleggers like Joe Kennedy and Al Capone
weren't put out of business by Elliot Ness, but by FDR's repeal of Prohibition.
The one good thing I can see about the current economic mess we're in is that government at all levels is waking up to the fact that we simply can't
afford to incarcerate people for recreational use of drugs just as we can't afford to wage a phony "war on drugs" that hasn't worked, doesn't work and
never will. Why in hell can't we learn from experience what succeeds and what doesn't? In this case the object lesson is right before us in FDR's
repeal of Prohibition. My hunch is that too many people on both sides of the border are making too much money and want to maintain the status quo
just as it is, regardless of the consequences.
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Woooosh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Stickers
It is simplistic to blame users.
If a bank is robbed you cant blame them for the robbery because they keep money there.
You cant blame a women when she is assaulted because she is pretty.
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Apples and oranges!
The robber of Banks wants money, therefore he is the guilty one.
Those who assualt women think somehow they are entitled to do that, and want "it", therefore they are the guilty ones.
The "user" thinks he must have drugs, therefore he is the guilty one.
If none of these three types carried out their irresponsible desires there would be NO problem.
I repeat, take the users out, and there is no problem. The weight of the problem lies squarely on the shoulders of the user.
Barry |
Which is exactly why the war on drugs can never be won. It is a war and cross-border blame game against addicts- which accomplishes nothing so far.
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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Barry A.
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I tend to agree, Wooosh.
Barry
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Bajahowodd
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You guys know how I feel about the "war". I do wish to pick up on one point made by jazz. the term "Red China" actually sounds quaint today. Anyway,
while I don't worry that China posseses any extraordinary threat, it is true that 98% of all overseas shipping is conducted by foreign flagged
vessels. Relinquishing American flagging allowed tax dodging and reduction in wages and benefits to the men and women that operate those ships. Our
apparent only line of defense against shipments of contraband is the Coast Guard and Port Security.
[Edited on 3-3-2009 by Bajahowodd]
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Stickers
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajajazz
I have always thought it highly likely that guns and the precursor chemicals used to make speed and refine heroin are being shipped by the container
load from China to Long Beach to Mexico.
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You are right about the guns coming into Long Beach because it is legal. All these years the AK-47s and equivalent cheap affordable weapons have been
shipped (millions of them) form China into the U.S.
The most horrible drug making materials (for methamphetamine) are not being imported through Long Beach because it's illegal.
Not sure if anybody is checking what raw chemicals China is shipping into Mexico but the methamphetamine problem is huge and getting worse.
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The Gull
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by The Gull
Can we count the number of countries who are currently destroyed because of the US drug culture? |
You're right on that, Gull, but the consumer is only part of the problem. To lay all blame on the U.S. user would be the same as attributing all of
today's bank problems to the real estate buyer. It's just not the full picture. |
But Dennis, it is a start. Why don't you fill in the rest of the picture for us? You know it, don't you?
�I won\'t insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.� William F. Buckley, Jr.
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Pescador
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Guess I should have put this here:
You know some day our politicians will decide that we should take responsibility for our own shortcomings and problems. The United States should
really be willing to accept responsibility for creating the drug problem in the first place. Since some significat portion of the population has
decided that they have an unlimited hunger for marijuana, cocaine, and other drugs, Mexico and other southern neighbors were responding to the great
market that has been created. Now we spend untold millions of dollars on trying to shut down this industry and the only thing that has happened is the
demand is increasing almost daily. Law enforcement has gotten to the point where they know that they cannot put any kind of lid on the problem so they
have started turning their heads the other direction and it is not uncommon to walk down the streets in any major city in American and watch people
trading or smoking marijuana pretty much uninhibited and oftentimes in the sight of police officers.
So, to me, this looks pretty much like the days of prohibition where it became the "in thing" to do where everyone went to speakeasys and after hours
clubs to buy illegal alcohol. Whole industries developed for the manufacture and distribution of alcohol.
I do not condone nor use any of the drugs forementioned but I am a realist and have become increasingly aware that we do have a great vacuum that
seems unable to fill itself up with drugs. As long as that market of consumers is active, the market of suppliers will find some way to fill the
pipeline.
So, Calderon is trying to shut this organized, well funded, and well established force with a group of military kids that are short of training and
skill and using a police force that is constantly being caught with corruption and graft, and an infastructure that is aged and not very effective,
and fund it all with diminishing pesos. I suspect that the only honorable thing we could actually do is to take a deep responsibility for the problem
and go about solving it. Some have suggested that legalization would change things, others argue that it is too big a step, but the reality is that we
can no longer afford to sweep this thing under the carpet as the cost has become too great for the systems of law enforcement, judicial, penal,
social, as well as the very structure of the family as we know it. This is not an issue that can be done with intermittent reinforcement of some half
baked laws and we are but fooling ourselves if we think that things are going to get better.
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Bajahowodd
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There's a big hue and cry when anyone even mentions decrimialization, let alone legalization. Truth is that decriminalization would take a significant
load off local law enforcement, including the courts. But it would have negligible effect on trafficking and all the problems that entails. Who's
against legalization? I can't begin to imagine how many people directly and indirectly earn their living from the war on drugs. Family values groups
are certainly against legalization. probably the liquor industry. Maybe even the tobacco companies.
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JESSE
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Lets face it, one day drugs are going to be legalized, why waste billions and billions and thousands and thousands of lives trying to hold on to
something that has no future?
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
Lets face it, one day drugs are going to be legalized, why waste billions and billions and thousands and thousands of lives trying to hold on to
something that has no future? |
Because there are some people who think that this world would be a better place without drugs. If you don't agree with that, tell the world, right
here. Now's your chance.
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fishbuck
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Ya, the idea that people in the US are going to use less drugs is urealistic. And so is blaming them for the problem.
If no one was manufacturing drugs there would be no users.
Look at the tobacco industry as an example. They want to get you hooked on cigarettes so you will be a life long customer. Until it kills you.
The drug producers are following that model.
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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Bajahowodd
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Fishy-I've never seen a marijuana factory. This is the big kahuna. Can't remember who it was that posted on another thread that he was told by a hard
drug user that if that user had been able to score pot, he wouldn't be on the hard stuff. That flies in the face of all those fans of pot being a
gateway drug. But gateway is nonsense. Easy and legal availability of pot would surely cut down the use of meth, coke and H.
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BajaGringo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by fishbuck
Ya, the idea that people in the US are going to use less drugs is urealistic. And so is blaming them for the problem.
If no one was manufacturing drugs there would be no users.
Look at the tobacco industry as an example. They want to get you hooked on cigarettes so you will be a life long customer. Until it kills you.
The drug producers are following that model. |
The problem with that analysis is that is only true if the users never had experienced or knew about the drugs in the first place. Once the cat is out
of the bag there is no going back. We learned that during prohibition, remember?
Don't believe me? Criminalize tobacco tomorrow and see how many millions of folks in the USA will be figuring out a way to get a cigarette, no matter
what the cost or penalty.
I agree with Dennis that I WISH all these drugs were gone from society but wishing won't do much about it. Incarcerating them with increasing time and
penalties isn't working either.
So instead of telling me what you WISH would happen, offer up a realistic answer to the problem that will work in the long term.
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fishbuck
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Fishy-I've never seen a marijuana factory. This is the big kahuna. Can't remember who it was that posted on another thread that he was told by a hard
drug user that if that user had been able to score pot, he wouldn't be on the hard stuff. That flies in the face of all those fans of pot being a
gateway drug. But gateway is nonsense. Easy and legal availability of pot would surely cut down the use of meth, coke and H. |
I'm no expert on meth, coke, heroin etc. I know very little of pot. Beer is my drug of choice.
I find it difficult to believe that a "hard" drug user would be satified with pot. They work totally different in the mind. And pot is not an
addicting drug either. so I doubt it would counteract the addiction of a hard drug.
I haven't seen a marijuana factory either. But I would say it looks like a typical house with the windows blocked with curtains or something. All the
rooms would be filled with plants in pots and grow lights on the ceiling. Could be right next door.
Marijuana is legal in California. I doubt if it has cut down on hard drug use or encouraged hard drug use.
Gateway drugs? Alcohol and cigarettes.
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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Bajahowodd
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There are some class issues involved. Sure, technically pot is legal in CA. But one must visit a doctor, get a scrip and then buy. Fairly expensive
for street people. Not to mention that street people are preyed upon by their dealers. Price of MD 20-20 alot higher in the ghetto than on mainstreet.
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fishbuck
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
| Quote: | Originally posted by fishbuck
Ya, the idea that people in the US are going to use less drugs is urealistic. And so is blaming them for the problem.
If no one was manufacturing drugs there would be no users.
Look at the tobacco industry as an example. They want to get you hooked on cigarettes so you will be a life long customer. Until it kills you.
The drug producers are following that model. |
The problem with that analysis is that is only true if the users never had experienced or knew about the drugs in the first place. Once the cat is out
of the bag there is no going back. We learned that during prohibition, remember?
Don't believe me? Criminalize tobacco tomorrow and see how many millions of folks in the USA will be figuring out a way to get a cigarette, no matter
what the cost or penalty.
I agree with Dennis that I WISH all these drugs were gone from society but wishing won't do much about it. Incarcerating them with increasing time and
penalties isn't working either.
So instead of telling me what you WISH would happen, offer up a realistic answer to the problem that will work in the long term.
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I believe what you said is true. It's like when the cigarette companies hand out free cigarettes at concerts. They are really hoping you get hooked.
Drug producers do it very similarly. In fact it was in the news that they set up shop in some small mid-west town recently. They moved huge amounts of
drugs through the little town. But not all of it leaves town. People, and the includes kids, are exposed to it. And they start using it. And get
addicted.
It has happened in a lot of the little baja towns too. As the drugs pass through town people are exposed. And they start using it.
The first step to "solving" this is acknowledging what is really happening.
If I am in the business of growing a big field of heroin poppies I'm also in the business of making sure someone buys and consumes my product.
So what came first here the chicken or the egg? My guess is that before drugs were produced there were no addicts or users. That came after. And it
was intentional.
But the cat is most definately out of the bag. And I don't think he's going back in.
So acknowledge people are using drugs here in the US. Lots of it too! And it's not going to stop.
So what is you plan to deal with that reality.
And there are large scale producers of all these different drugs. And they fully intend to get you, or your family, or friends addicted to their
product. And as long as they get your money they don't care what happens to you.
They are continuosly looking for new customers. And they will find them.
Now what?
[Edited on 3-4-2009 by fishbuck]
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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BajaGringo
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Well, now that we accept what the reality is we have to decide what a realistic solution is. As much as I would like to see drugs gone from this
planet it won't happen anymore than we could get rid of gambling or prostitution. I say that drugs, gambling and prostitution should be legal
everywhere - regulated, taxed and zoned. With the billions saved you can educate the public and provide treatment. It will not be a 100% solution but
I don't see how any solution ever could be. It seems to me to be the lesser of two evils.
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