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Bajahowodd
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9274
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Location: Disneyland Adjacent and anywhere in Baja
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I surmise that the "other-than-Latins" you are referring to had to somehow enter Mexico, most likely via air or ship. In that case, they would have at
least been legal visitors to Mexico. In any case, it'd be a stretch for billions of people to do it that way, no?
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Packoderm
Super Nomad
Posts: 2116
Registered: 11-7-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I surmise that the "other-than-Latins" you are referring to had to somehow enter Mexico, most likely via air or ship. In that case, they would have at
least been legal visitors to Mexico. In any case, it'd be a stretch for billions of people to do it that way, no? |
You seem to be working quite hard at not considering our point. If the U.S. opens it's doors to one and all, then we will have the magnitude of
travelers to the U.S. from around the world.
If we were talking face to face, it would be easier to see where you are coming from. I have talked to some Aztlan types who really want an enlarged
Mexico while feigning some other concern to achieve this end. Then you have your anarchist types who disrespect all rules and authority. My position
is that of a former blue collar U.S. citizen who is concerned about the disenfranchised people in our workforce who would continue to be blue collar
workers instead of down and out if such opportunities were availble. Workers here fought for a viable America with brick in hand and justice in their
hearts. I'd hate to see the whole thing go back to what it was.
Without seeing you, would it be accurate to venture to guess that you might be the Aztlan type?
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k-rico
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Let's not forget the fact that many of the the illegals that get across to find work, find it. Maybe if Americans would stop being criminals
themselves by breaking the law and hiring them, there would be less trying to get across.
"Nearly 12 million illegal immigrants are estimated to be living in the United States. The vast majority work in low-skill, low-wage jobs. More than
half work in construction, manufacturing or leisure and hospitality."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900
"Anyone employing or contracting with an illegal alien without verifying his work authorization status is guilty of a misdemeanor. Aliens and
employers violating immigration laws are subject to arrest, detention, and seizure of their vehicles or property. In addition, individuals or entities
who engage in racketeering enterprises that commit (or conspire to commit) immigration-related felonies are subject to private civil suits for treble
damages and injunctive relief."
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrati...
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MitchMan
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Without seeing you, Packoderm, would you not be an Aztlan type?
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
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Give them a drink of water for Christ's sake!!!
They're dying. 
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Packoderm
Super Nomad
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Registered: 11-7-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
Without seeing you, Packoderm, would you not be an Aztlan type? |
You mean I would not be that type? Or is it would I not be the type? What are you asking?
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wessongroup
Platinum Nomad
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Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
Give them a drink of water for Christ's sake!!!
They're dying. |
Ditto's
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Packoderm
Super Nomad
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Registered: 11-7-2002
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I've got it figured out: They'd install water dispensers at various locations. All a suffering desert walker would need to do is press a button
located on the water dispenser, and a helpful border agent will be right there to unlock the water. Problem solved.
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MitchMan
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I think the real issue that has me a bit peaked at this time in this thread is in one's perspective on the whole matter. I think that it is NOT right
to call all the illegal aliens "criminals" in the usual sense of the word. When one thinks of a criminal, at least for most people, one congures up a
person who willfully and consciously and deliberately wants to do some one else harm who does not deserve such harm or who wants to steal something
from some one else without earning the value received, like, let's say Madoff or Manson. The word cirminal has the strong connotation of a mental
state of mal intent or "mens rhea". At least that is the way I use the word "criminal".
Now, Mexico has their borders and their sovereignty and they penalize those who don't respect their rules. We share the same border and we want it
respected, and that is the way it should be for alot of very valid reasons.
Mexico has a wealth of natural resources and fewer people than the USA. They've been around as long as we have and they have observed us for all the
time that we have been here, so they have a great example to follow, but they have chosen, as a people, not to improve their lot. Each people on this
earth has the responsibility to take care of themselves, to improve their own country, to defend their own country, and to improve themselves. If they
collectively don't have the self respect, work ethic, the desire for standards, self discipline, the insight or the intellectuality to accomplish
these things as a country or as a people collectively when they have had the opportunity of time (same amount of time over the past 400 years as we
have had), then the people have to get off their collective asses and do something about it themselves for themselves. It appears to me that the
people of Mexico, collectively, have had neither the collective will nor the self discipline to do it. That's not our responsibility, it's theirs.
Having said that, I still do not think that it reflects one's humanity nor is it appropriate in common parlance to cavalierly broad-label thel illegal
immigrant community as "criminals". I think to do that at every opportunity is flagrant, inflammatory, and quite frankly, smacks of a racist
attitude. I prefer to use that word for the Madoff's and the Mansons of the world.
[Edited on 12-31-2009 by MitchMan]
[Edited on 12-31-2009 by MitchMan]
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MitchMan
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Packoderm, ever diagram a sentence? Let me put it another way by quoting you ... Without seeing you, would it be accurate to venture to guess that
you might NOT be the Aztlan type?
Packoderm, by your posting your question about my question, and then by my having responded with this post to restate the question to you, you've
ruined my original half-way esoteric intent in posting the first question to you, which was more rhetorical in nature than in seeking the literal
answer. Man, I'm not going to playwith you anymore. I picking up my toys and going home. You're no fun anymore.
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arrowhead
Banned
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Registered: 5-5-2009
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| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
Let's not forget the fact that many of the the illegals that get across to find work, find it. Maybe if Americans would stop being criminals
themselves by breaking the law and hiring them, there would be less trying to get across.
"Nearly 12 million illegal immigrants are estimated to be living in the United States. The vast majority work in low-skill, low-wage jobs. More than
half work in construction, manufacturing or leisure and hospitality." |
What you are forgetting is that these illegals are also violating the laws of Mexico. Mexican law says it is illegal for a Mexican citizen to depart
the country without a passport and a visa for the destination country. It is also illegal to depart the country via other than a port of entry. Yet
every day about 500 Mexicans are deported through the gate at San Ysidro, and not one of them has ever been charged with violating Mexican laws. And
also recognize that Mexican law enforcement does not arrest Mexicans waiting at the fence to crawl over it when it is dark, even though that is
clearly illegal.
So it is not just the "draw" of work in the US, it is also the "push" from Mexico which encourages its citizens to violate the sovereignty of the US
and not only does not punish such behaviour, it rewards it.
And finally, we should rethink about whether we want 12 million low-skill workers in the US. The average illegal alien in the US does not hold even a
high school education and has an IQ almost one standard deviation below the average. I'm not saying Mexicans are any more stupid that any other
people. But there is some kind of a natural selection process occurring where Mexico tends to send the bottom half of its people to the US, whereas
the smarter ones are able to remain and succeed in Mexico.
No soy por ni contra apatía.
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surfer jim
Super Nomad
Posts: 1891
Registered: 8-29-2003
Location: high desert
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Well....whoever wants them to drink water should invite them over to THEIR house to stay for a while....and then tell me how you feel about the
situation.
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Packoderm
Super Nomad
Posts: 2116
Registered: 11-7-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
Packoderm, ever diagram a sentence? Let me put it another way by quoting you ... Without seeing you, would it be accurate to venture to guess that
you might NOT be the Aztlan type?
Packoderm, by your posting your question about my question, and then by my having responded with this post to restate the question to you, you've
ruined my original half-way esoteric intent in posting the first question to you, which was more rhetorical in nature than in seeking the literal
answer. Man, I'm not going to playwith you anymore. I picking up my toys and going home. You're no fun anymore. |
Well, actually, what I meant to say was, I could not would not wish for that not to be the case if it could never have been in any time to come.
I better clear up the part about not seeing the person during the conversation. It doesn't have to do so much with physical characteristics as it does
with tone and cadence. Is the person genuinely concerned with suffering individuals in the desert or is there an issue with the U.S.'s right to its
sovereignty in relation to Mexico?
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danaeb
Senior Nomad
Posts: 991
Registered: 11-13-2006
Location: San Diego; El Centenario
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Mood: groovy
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I've lived on the border for the whole of my 60 years. I would gladly share my water, food and shelter with those who are only seeking work in order
to care for their families.
You can call me naive, ignorant or stupid, or whatever nasty adjectives you want to use.
I have, and will continue to provide my support to those who toil without complaint.
Experience enables you to recognize a mistake every time you repeat it.
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Packoderm
Super Nomad
Posts: 2116
Registered: 11-7-2002
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I suppose by virtue of this being a forum devoted to exotic, international travel (and the demographics involved with such a forum) it would be
forgivable not to find anybody directly affected by vocational displacement due to immigrant labor which would explain the apparent laissez faire
attitude regarding our nation's border. There is nothing being given away that affects many of you directly. It doesn't affect me directly, but I
remember when it did, so I'll stand up for the American worker - alone if that is how it is.
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Mexicorn
Senior Nomad
Posts: 772
Registered: 9-15-2009
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| Quote: | Originally posted by surfer jim
Well....whoever wants them to drink water should invite them over to THEIR house to stay for a while....and then tell me how you feel about the
situation. |
I for one would be more than happy to do that.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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This is all pretty much academic. Eventually, somebody's going to get tired of all the drugs coming across the border and the only thing that will
stop it will be militarization.
That foto of the mass of crosses up there, if taken fifty years ago, would have been Stars Of David except, in that case, the victims were forced to
their death. Today, the trip into the oven is one of personal choice.
Shame on the Mexican government for allowing and encouraging this option. It's a bad choice to walk into a desert inferno and those that make the
choice do it with full awareness of the consequences. There is no justification to use poverty as a reason to commit suicide.
The sooner the military takes over the region, the more lives will be saved from the ravishes of drugs and heat. It can't be too soon for me.
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Packoderm
Super Nomad
Posts: 2116
Registered: 11-7-2002
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This is one of the few wedge issues that can effectively divide liberals. Liberals will let their principles on immigration sway their vote.
Conservatives seem to be able to let it go and listen to and vote according to whomever is setting the party line. Liberals tend to either be
completely for illegal immigration out of compassion for poor foreigners or against it out of concern for the American worker and American culture.
Conservatives are lukewarm for it for the cheap labor it provides and simultaneously against it to foster fear and compliance among the illegal
immigrants - along with a smattering of concern for American culture and sometimes due to xenophobia. As our resources dwindle and our way of life
becomes more constrained, we can look forward to this becoming an increasingly volatile issue.
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k-rico
Super Nomad
Posts: 2079
Registered: 7-10-2008
Location: Playas de Tijuana
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
That foto of the mass of crosses up there, if taken fifty years ago, would have been Stars Of David except, in that case, the victims were forced to
their death. Today, the trip into the oven is one of personal choice.
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Pow, zing, that's a real mind-bender. Synapses/arteries a bit corroded?
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k-rico
Super Nomad
Posts: 2079
Registered: 7-10-2008
Location: Playas de Tijuana
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Packoderm
Liberals tend to either be completely for illegal immigration out of compassion for poor foreigners or against it out of concern for the American
worker and American culture. |
Naw, I'm a liberal on this issue and I'm against illegal immigration and all for the wall. Why? Out of concern for the Mexicans. Can you imagine
having a dream, leaving you home for a foreign country and risking your life to achieve it, all to find out it was an illusion and you're surrounded
by people that hate you?
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