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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajajorge
In California 7 million voters say ban gay marriage. In California one(1) judge overturns what 7 million citizens want. I guess Mexico has the same
mind set, screw what the people want.
And besides that, 99% of Mexicans are Catholic. The Catholic religion also says gay marriage is a no no. I guess their church is going down the tubes
too. |
Following that reasoning, the old Jim Crow laws in parts of the US would still be in effect.
Also, in many places in the Los Angeles area (and I am sure elsewhere as well) the old CC & Rs that are still on the books outlawed selling of
property to any Blacks, Mexicans, Jews, Indians, Asians and others. That is what the "people" wanted. It took legislation to make those parts of
the CC & Rs illegal.
In this case as well as in many others, the laws are meant to protect the human and civil rights of the minority---and it is a good thing.
In this case, it is the court doing their job --- protecting human rights and declaring an unjust law invalid.
Our entire government was set up to protect the minority from the whims of the majority.
Equal justice for all always has been and still is a work in progress.
[Edited on 8-18-2010 by DianaT]
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k-rico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajabass
That is not democracy in action, is it? |
The majority can't trump the Constitution, except by amending it.
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durrelllrobert
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Mexican Government commercial currently running on the radio says (in English): "the government will continue to fight to protect the rights of its
citizens" 
- protect them from who
Bob Durrell
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Woooosh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajajorge
In California 7 million voters say ban gay marriage. In California one(1) judge overturns what 7 million citizens want. I guess Mexico has the same
mind set, screw what the people want.
And besides that, 99% of Mexicans are Catholic. The Catholic religion also says gay marriage is a no no. I guess their church is going down the tubes
too. |
Um. The catholic church has already been flushed- they did that to themselves. I went to catholic school and the priest never laid a hand on me
except to discipline me (I could have been an ugly child though).
I take the other view on the voting- if 7 million people vote for something that is against the constitution and singles out a class for
discrimination- it is rightly overturned. We live in a Constitutional republic, not a democracy. So why did 7 million people vote to screw the
constitution? They are bigots and they should just own-up to that. It's OK to be a bigot or racist-- we all are in some ways, but man-up and own
it. Most whites were against interracial marriages too- so what?
With 50% of heterosexual marriages ending in divorce, outlawing or curbing divorce rates is the best way to protect marriage.
The way the law is today in Mexico- marriages performed in Mexico City are recognized here in Baja. I would be VERY surprised if Mayor Torres, who
has already put the red carpet out for gay businesses, doesn't try to drum up some serious business from gay marriages if if ever comes to that here.
So what. Life is too short and we need more love and commitment in this world, not less...imho
[Edited on 8-18-2010 by Woooosh]
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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elizabeth
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| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajajorge
In California 7 million voters say ban gay marriage. In California one(1) judge overturns what 7 million citizens want.
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Yes but there were 13.4 million valid votes.
Proposition 8 results:
Anti gay marrigae: 7,001,084 52.24%
Pro gay marriage: 6,401,482 47.76%
So you could say the judge ruled in favor of what 6.4 million people want.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)
But the number for and against isn't really the point. |
There's a reason why there is a separation of the different branches of government... checks and balances...a balancing of power to see to it that one
branch is not more powerful than the others.
The courts are there to determining constitutionality of laws, and to protect the minority from majority (mob) rule when the majority wants to do
something unconsitutional. If the courts were just rubber stamps, then there would still be segregated schools, institutional racism, bans on
interracial marriages, use of birth control would be illegal, and there would be illegal sexual acts among consenting adults, among other things that
the Supreme Court determined to be unconstitutional. If there was a vote on any of those issues, you would find that most people were on the opposite
side of the court decisions.
And, Mexico may be a primarily Catholic country, but there is more separation of church and state here than most other countries. Only civil
marriages are recognized by the state, religious ceremonies are personal decisions, but have no legal significance.
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ecomujeres
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Thanks Diana, Woosh and Elizabeth. All well written - you all clearly make the point of why it doesn't matter what the voters want if they are
limiting the constitutional rights of one group because they are uncomfortable with that group or because they feel morally superior. Since you said
it so well, I'll leave it at that! Gracias!
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JESSE
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FYI, 52% of Mexicans support same sex unions or marriage.
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Woooosh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
FYI, 52% of Mexicans support same sex unions or marriage. |
That really doesn't surprise me. I find that Mexican families are more fluid and forgiving. In my family the sisters and brothers have other spouses
they have had children with and some even raise each others children. It's not a big deal if someone calls their aunt who raised them "mom." There
is a connection to the catholic church- but not always a rational one. One example is doing a Christian baptism at year one or two- instead of right
after birth. Yes, I know infant mortality rates are higher in Mexico, but that' the POINT of a Baptism... to wash the soul of original sin so the
child would not spend time in purgatory. Waiting a year for the party is socially very nice from a family perspective- but not what the church
intended Baptism to be..
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
FYI, 52% of Mexicans support same sex unions or marriage. |
What???? 52% of Mexicans are gay? Where do all these kids come from?? 
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DENNIS
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You guys are a charming couple, Roger. 
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Cypress
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Jim Crow? Is he related to "Old Crow"? 
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Dave
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OK, I gotta ask
| Quote: | Originally posted by Woooosh
There is a connection to the catholic church- but not always a rational one. |
You know. 
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MrBillM
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Is THAT ?
A photo of Two Guys ?
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Bajahowodd
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ecomujeres
Thanks Diana, Woosh and Elizabeth. All well written - you all clearly make the point of why it doesn't matter what the voters want if they are
limiting the constitutional rights of one group because they are uncomfortable with that group or because they feel morally superior. Since you said
it so well, I'll leave it at that! Gracias! |
I want to weigh in on this too. Way too many people just plain do not understand what a constitutional democracy is. One of the checks and balances is
to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. Methinks that too many people have spent way too much time watching and listening to self
interested and wealthy provocateurs be they Limbaugh, Fox News or Dick Armey, for that matter. A majority of legal scholars who have weighed in on the
recent Federal Court decision agree with the judge, in that whatever the so-called will of the people is, if it discriminates against others, it is
unconstitutional.
People need to get over this. There is absolutely no evidence that support the notion that same sex marriage in any way infringes on the rights of
others; not to mention that there is also no evidence that same sex couples are any less capable of providing a loving and nourishing environment for
children.
And, there exists no clinical evidence that being homosexual is anything like a personal choice. It is a genetic imprint.
The people who are out in the front lines of the debate against same sex marriage are either religious zealots, or pawns of those who prefer that our
attention is focused on such nonsense, so that they can rob everyone blind. Think Wall Street, the Banking industry and even Rupert Murdoch (why don't
they confiscate his holdings and deport him?) He's un-American and anti-American; just pro profit and anyone be damned.
Given that Mexico has, at least some legalized same sex marriage, and I do believe that Canada does as well, not to mention myriad nations around the
world, what does that make the us look like? Why not leave these fellow citizens alone; allow them equality, and turn your attention to stuff that
really matters?
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TMW
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If a church (religion) does not believe in same sex marriage will they be required to perform the marriage?
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MrBillM
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Getting over it ?
Not anytime soon, Hopefully.
At least, not before November.
Whatever else Eventually happens in the courts, right now this is an issue which is working in our favor.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
that there is also no evidence that same sex couples are any less capable of providing a loving and nourishing environment for children.
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Doncha think those kids will be conflicted during the soon to be mandatory sex education classes in school? How will they process all of the guidance
that won't apply to them? Won't they be confused?
Do you think the future will bring an insistance on gay sex education in the name of equality? You know how "hot-button" discrimination can be.
Will we see on TV Gay Divorce Court? Maybe Jerry Springer could be a judge.
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k-rico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
If a church (religion) does not believe in same sex marriage will they be required to perform the marriage? |
No.
http://upword.blogspot.com/2008/10/prop-8-myths-churches-and...
"The California Supreme Court was explicit on this point......
Finally, affording same-sex couples the opportunity to obtain the designation of marriage will not impinge upon the religious freedom of any
religious organization, official, or any other person; no religion will be required to change its religious policies or practices with regard to
same-sex couples, and no religious officiant will be required to solemnize a marriage in contravention of his or her religious beliefs. [Ca. Sup. Ct.,
S147999 (2008), p. 117]"
[Edited on 8-19-2010 by k-rico]
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
If a church (religion) does not believe in same sex marriage will they be required to perform the marriage? |
In the US marriage is a civil affair ---- may or may not be a religious ceremony involved. On the other hand, one can get married in a church many,
many times and it will not be a legally recognized marriage unless there is a license issued by the government.
Same sex couples have been having marriage ceremonies for a very long time in some churches --- a way to celebrate their union in a spiritual way.
The problem has been that without the government issued license, the partners are deprived of many civil rights afforded to other married couples.
There are a number of gay couples in our church; some of whom were legally married before Prop 8, and many are raising very well adjusted children.
Of course there will always be mal adjusted children coming from gay or straight homes. But the ideas that gay marriage in any way threatens straight
marriages, or gays will definitely raise children with problems, or turn straight children gay, and on and on are all based on ignorance and bigotry.
It is time to move forward----and the rights of churches to refuse to marry anyone will remain intact ---- many religions have strict requirements for
marriage within their church, and this will not change anything.
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DENNIS
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What a bunch of unnecessary nonsense. The only real solution is to ban marriage all together for everybody.
Arm yourselves and live in sin.
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