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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
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Location: San Diego County
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Anita's brothers and sisters (from 'Reflections' by Mama (Anita) Espinoza c1994):
1890: Arturo
1892: Angelio
1894: Juan
1896: Eduardo
1898: Emelio
1903: Teresa
1905: Eugenio
1906: Adelaida
1907: Amalia
1908*: Anita (102 in Oct. 2010)
* The 2002 book 'Anita' gives the year as 1910
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ELINVESTIG8R
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Registered: 11-20-2007
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According to her birth registration she was born October 16, 1906. David if you have doubts as to Mama's age and wish to continue to dispute what I
have said here with respect to her age please go see her daughter Roli and ask to see Mama's birth registration papers. She will show them to you. I
will call her tomorrow to let her know that a David K will be coming to investigate Mama's age as he does not believe it.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ELINVESTIG8R
According to her birth registration she was born October 16, 1906. David if you have doubts as to Mama's age and wish to continue to dispute what I
have said here with respect to her age please go see her daughter Roli and ask to see Mama's birth registration papers. She will show them to you. I
will call her tomorrow to let her know that a David K will be coming to investigate Mama's age as he does not believe it. |
David my friend... I have nothing to do with it. Mama herself told me the book 'Anita' which I bought from her is the authentic truth of her life...
and it gives the birthdate as Oct. 16, 1910... makes her 100 this year.
The other book that I provided another date from was her autobiography, published in 1994 and that gives the date of Oct. 16, 1908... which would make
her 102.
I am only providing published dates from her own books.
Beercan gets invited to a 103 birthday party this month and you post an date of Oct. 19... and an age of 104 years, which would mean she and her
sister Adelaida were born the same year and she would have a younger sister named Amalia born in 1907. Yet Anita is the youngest of the 10 Grosso
children???
Who is investigating? The only thing I care about is accuracy and facts about Baja history.
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ELINVESTIG8R
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David you want accuracy go to El Rosario and talk to Mama herself and get the facts first hand. Remember Mama did not write the book someone else did
and they got their facts wrong. David she is 104 period. Like I said go see her and ask to see her birth registration. The book got it wrong and you
coming out here to try to make her look stupid or worse, a liar really does a disservice to her legacy and really peees me off. So get your a s s
down to El Rosario and get the accuracy you seem to need and publish it here. October 16, 1906 makes her 104 years old.
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BajaBlanca
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settle down you all ..... settle down, please, por favor, per favore,
......... one would presume a book esp. an AUTOBIOGRAPHY would be correct and there are many dates flying around... it is Ok, trust me, the world
will continue to turn and Mama (and they are all Mamas) will continue to get older ....
and the birth certificate obviously counts the best, we presume. I wd never think to ask to see it. But great that you did and can share this
information.
however, that being said, maybe the family wants the aura of the original mama to continue ???? or maybe they all wanted to be Mama Espinoza's ??????
Juanchys is a pretty credible man, I imagine he got the scoop somewhere that the original Mama had died ....
no matter what, information on birthday date/year should NOT have been published if it is incorrect. But then this is Mexico, verdad ?????????????
and we can deal with this issue manana ......... pull into your hammocks if you are in Mexico, or pull into your easy chair if you are NOT and please
please please chill. No reason to get upset and every reason to state your case quietly if you are right. IMHO. and pls., no yelling at me, I am very
sensitive, besides that, Uncle Guido can ... never mind .....let's chill ...
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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I am only showing what is documented in books... one is written by Mama Espinoza, another is the book Mama told me last year (July 25, 2009) is the
accurate one on her life, and still another was written by a Baja Nomad (GregN) about the legends of Baja...
Here is Mama autographing the book to Elizabeth and I last year... the one she says has the truth about her in it:
Here is that book:
Here is the page with her birth given (a zoom in is below):
Here is Greg Niemann's excellent book:
Here is a close up of the Mama Espinoza part beginning:
Here is the book that MAMA wrote about her life (in 1994):
A close up of the page she wrote about her birth:
In that book is the list SHE gave of her sibblings... Unless she was a twin and not the youngest child, she couldn't have been born before 1908:
1890: Arturo
1892: Angelio
1894: Juan
1896: Eduardo
1898: Emelio
1903: Teresa
1905: Eugenio
1906: Adelaida (104 years ago)
1907: Amalia (103 years ago)
1908*: Anita (102 in Oct. 2010)
So, by Mama's own writing she is 102... or if the book she told me was correct is the truth, then she is 100. Greg's great book on Baja's great people
and places also puts her at 100 this year.
This is all from Mama Espinoza, not me... and I would never say Mama is lying.
Personally, I like the 1908 version, for one it is her autobiography... and secondly the mention of no registration (or certificates issued) until
1910 would mean that 1910 would be the oldest documentation date (100 years ago). So no earlier certificate exists, according to Mama's own words.
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Bob H
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At that age I may not quite remember the year I was born either.
Audrey and I met Mama a few years ago..... maybe 1998.... was cooking up some fish soup which smelled fantastic!... she is a wonderful woman, for
sure.
Bob H
[Edited on 10-22-2010 by Bob H]
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ELINVESTIG8R
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David I don't give a "F" what those books say! They have the facts wrong! If Mama tells me she is 104 she is 104 and who the "F" are you to say
different. October 16, 1906 was when she was born and you dragging out the books with inaccurate information which she did not write will not change
that. Get your a s s down to El Rosario and tell Mama she is not 104 and call her a "GD" liar. Go ahead Mr. I need accuracy. Don't come in here
raining on Mama's parade until you go to the source to get the truth. You won't though because you are a typical coward keyboard commando. David, any
possible of a friendship with you has been erased. "FU" you "F-ING" "AH." I hope and pray the day comes that I can tell you that to your face. This is
my last word on this.
Re-Edit to say: Ok this is actually the last I say anything about this! I will call Roli today to let her know that you "David K" have thrown down the
gauntlet and are challenging the veracity of Mama's age. I will tell her to expect you some day if you have the balls to go and to give you the
correct information so you can have your "Precious Baja California Accuracy." You better go down to El Rosario to get the information now since you
have besmirched Mama's name and I expect a retraction here on Baja Nomad once you get it.
[Edited on 10-22-2010 by ELINVESTIG8R]
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Boy, again we have a failure to communicate... I don't care how old Mama is. It is just highly interesting that her own book, that she said her sister
Adelaida was born in 1906, and she came 2 years later. Then in the book SHE told me is the one with correct information, has her born 100 years ago,
in 1910.
Now, before you posted her birthday as being the 19th of October (it is the 16th) in this thread, 'beercan' (a pilot) posted that he was invited to
her 103rd birthday party... ? That's when I pulled out the books. It is interesting reading and if you have issues with what they say, then ask the
authors (Mama being one) and 'GregN' who is a Nomad is another.
If anything, this is meant to raise interest in Mama... rather than being a simple happy birthday and going away. I have no reason to upset you David,
and I am sorry that you are getting upset.
As an investigator, I would think you would want as much information as possible and not just accept one's statement that defies at least three
published books... including one written by the person in question.
I also have to ask you why would anyone want to publish false information about a birthdate?
If Mama was born in 1906, what are the new dates for her brothers' and sisters' births... since these years that Mama wrote are now incorrect?:
1890: Arturo
1892: Angelio
1894: Juan
1896: Eduardo
1898: Emelio
1903: Teresa
1905: Eugenio
1906: Adelaida (104 years ago)
1907: Amalia (103 years ago)
1908*: Anita (102 in Oct. 2010)
Please don't be mad David, be curious!
Thank you!!
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
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Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ELINVESTIG8R
David I don't give a "F" what those books say! They have the facts wrong! If Mama tells me she is 104 she is 104 and who the "F" are you to say
different. October 16, 1906 was when she was born and you dragging out the books with inaccurate information which she did not write will not change
that. Get your a s s down to El Rosario and tell Mama she is not 104 and call her a "GD" liar. Go ahead Mr. I need accuracy. Don't come in here
raining on Mama's parade until you go to the source to get the truth. You won't though because you are a typical coward keyboard commando. David, any
possible of a friendship with you has been erased. "FU" you "F-ING" "AH." I hope and pray the day comes that I can tell you that to your face. This is
my last word on this.
Re-Edit to say: Ok this is actually the last I say anything about this! I will call Roli today to let her know that you "David K" have thrown down the
gauntlet and are challenging the veracity of Mama's age. I will tell her to expect you some day if you have the balls to go and to give you the
correct information so you can have your "Precious Baja California Accuracy." You better go down to El Rosario to get the information now since you
have besmirched Mama's name and I expect a retraction here on Baja Nomad once you get it.
[Edited on 10-22-2010 by ELINVESTIG8R] |
David, you have gone over the edge with this. Your rant is totally uncalled for. You have some interesting Baja stories based on your personal
experiences, and I enjoy reading about them. However this type of response from you diminishes your credibility and professionalism with me.
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rts551
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Registered: 9-5-2003
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DavidK
Why don't you just take all your "facts"down there and present them as you have here.
Or is there a point to the "keyboard commando"?
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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OK... I quoted from the book Mama herself sold me last year... and two others... Not my 'made up dates'... 
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bajamigo
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Location: Punta Banda, BC
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Mood: hubimos llegado
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According to Mama Espinoza's autobiography, records began to be kept in 1910. It's entirely plausible to me that she was born earlier and that a
clerical error occurred at the time of recording her birth. How many times do we put the wrong year on the checks we write, especially around the
beginning of the year? And in 1910, in a society where literacy wasn't widespread, I can visualize some harried clerk making a common error.
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rts551
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Very true. But why would anyone question what she says on her birthday... All it would do is ruin her day. Let her state how hold she is no matter
what the books say.
| Quote: | Originally posted by bajamigo
According to Mama Espinoza's autobiography, records began to be kept in 1910. It's entirely plausible to me that she was born earlier and that a
clerical error occurred at the time of recording her birth. How many times do we put the wrong year on the checks we write, especially around the
beginning of the year? And in 1910, in a society where literacy wasn't widespread, I can visualize some harried clerk making a common error.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajamigo
According to Mama Espinoza's autobiography, records began to be kept in 1910. It's entirely plausible to me that she was born earlier and that a
clerical error occurred at the time of recording her birth. How many times do we put the wrong year on the checks we write, especially around the
beginning of the year? And in 1910, in a society where literacy wasn't widespread, I can visualize some harried clerk making a common error.
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Exactly a point I made (but missed by some?)... Mama wrote in her own book that record keeping didn't begin until 1910... So (she adds) that she was
born in 1908... in her autobiography.
If she changed her mind or got new info. since her 1994 book... fine, but then when wer her older sisters born she had written were born in 1907 and
1906... if she was born in 1906 (instead of 1908)? I would think her memory would have been the same or better (not worse) 16 years ago???
I wonder if Greg Niemann's 1910 date was told to him by Mama herself, or where he got that date... as it is also in the book Mama sells as her
'correct' life story?
None of this search into Baja history should deminish her as a special citizen of Baja or her having a happy birthday... In no way is it intended to
criticize her, but instead to discover how so many authors/ publishers have a different date than apparently she now has for her birth. Why would
anyone publish a wrong year on purpose? That is the real question, I think.
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LancairDriver
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajaguy
| Quote: | Originally posted by ELINVESTIG8R
David I don't give a "F" what those books say! They have the facts wrong! If Mama tells me she is 104 she is 104 and who the "F" are you to say
different. October 16, 1906 was when she was born and you dragging out the books with inaccurate information which she did not write will not change
that. Get your a s s down to El Rosario and tell Mama she is not 104 and call her a "GD" liar. Go ahead Mr. I need accuracy. Don't come in here
raining on Mama's parade until you go to the source to get the truth. You won't though because you are a typical coward keyboard commando. David, any
possible of a friendship with you has been erased. "FU" you "F-ING" "AH." I hope and pray the day comes that I can tell you that to your face. This is
my last word on this.
Re-Edit to say: Ok this is actually the last I say anything about this! I will call Roli today to let her know that you "David K" have thrown down the
gauntlet and are challenging the veracity of Mama's age. I will tell her to expect you some day if you have the balls to go and to give you the
correct information so you can have your "Precious Baja California Accuracy." You better go down to El Rosario to get the information now since you
have besmirched Mama's name and I expect a retraction here on Baja Nomad once you get it.
[Edited on 10-22-2010 by ELINVESTIG8R] |
David, you have gone over the edge with this. Your rant is totally uncalled for. You have some interesting Baja stories based on your personal
experiences, and I enjoy reading about them. However this type of response from you diminishes your credibility and professionalism with me.
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Well stated Bajaguy, and I agree. What the H is wrong with pointing out some published discrepancy's regarding Mama's age? DK doesn't call her a liar,
he simply points out some conflicting previously published information. I also believe an autobiography, unlike a biography is a persons life story in
their own words. DK was also one of the first to wish her happy Birthday, and has taken the time to visit with her, which shows his respect. I would
advise ELINVESTIG8R to back off on the threats, he is destined to threaten the wrong person one of these days.
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ELINVESTIG8R
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I don't care what anyone says about me I can defend myself. If you do not like what I wrote you can write me off. I could give a Sh.t.
When someone intimates that Mama who is in fact 104 years old is a liar, she is my Mama and I will defend her to the death. Hold that against me.
Fine!
I just got off the telephone with Roli and she said that record keeping did not begin until 1910 and that is when Mama and her husband Heraclio were
registered. Roli says Mama was born on October 16, 1906 and her dad Heraclio was born on 6 October 1907. Roli told me not to get angry with people who
denounce Mama.
I told her it was too late as my anger had already escaped in my writings in here. I told her my anger is genuine and that I will not take it back. As
far as I am concerned someone in here marred my very short trip report covering Mama's 104th birthday. For that I will never forgive the person.
I have a foul mouth which I can/will back up whether I say it in cyberspace or in your presence.
This “AH” could have had the good sense of contacting me privately with their concerns/reservations but oh no, he had to embarrass me and the Espinoza
family.
I promise to tell the person the way the cow eats the cabbage if/when I see him. Nothing violent but I will be very verbal.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Thanks LancairDriver... That is all I was doing and I am right up there with everyone to wish Mama a happy birthday. She would probably laugh as would
Roli if they knew such anger was being created over the many printed years being questioned...?
ELINVESTIG8R's being angry is something I do not wish... and if he wants, I will remove the attention his birthday thread is getting (from my posts
about the three books and beercan's invite comments have made) and move it to beercan's 103rd birthday invite thread.
All I was doing was a little 'INVESTI8ing' myself! 
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ELINVESTIG8R
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My anger has subsided and I hope that what has been written is left on the thread and not deleted as it is genuine. As far as I am concerned this
issue is over. Thank you!
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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The phrase "don't shoot the messenger" comes to mind...
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