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Roberto
Banned
Posts: 2162
Registered: 9-5-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by astrobaja
So sorry to inconvenience you Jim, but we LIVE here, 100% of the time. We don't want growers coming through and deal with all the trash and pulling
drunk Mexican off roaders out of the ditch cause they can hardly see.
And when we go away anybody can just drive up and steal what they want?
Tell you what why not leave your front and back door unlocked at your house and I'll tell people to come and go as they please, you trust them don't
you?
From what I'm told theres other roads in the Sierra Juarez that are being closed too, just a fact of a changing world! |
Mike, you have a point. But, I'm sure you have considered that if you are trying to stop growers a gate may not be enough? As you know there are those
in those hills who have no respect whatsoever for the law and there is a possibility that a blocked access at the wrong time could cause some
problems? Just sayin', and I'm NOT saying to just lay down, but you may need more than a gate there.
Have you discussed this with the officials in the area? Something along the line of the other roads being blocked putting you and your neighbors in a
bad situation? Might also want to think about not letting Pamela have access to those shovels? 
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UnoMas
Nomad
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Registered: 2-8-2008
Location: East Cape
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I just hope you are not putting yourself and wife in a danger. Trying to tell local's they can't do what they have done for years, add arrogance,
alcohol and machismo it is a dangerous mixture.
Is there not an easier way to deal with this, move the road so it doesn't pass by your front door etc. I think you would be much more successful if
you tried to work with the situation than the approach you are taking. JMO
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Roberto
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Keep in mind that Astro and SO have been there for a few years, and have built up some good alliances. So he's not exactly all alone and innocent
here.
That said, I sure hope nothing bad happens. Off-Roaders I wouldn't worry about. Growers could be a different story.
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UnoMas
Nomad
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Exactly It only takes a few seconds to reverse years of building alliances.
Just hope his passion doesn't end up being his fate. I admit I do not know anything about this situation.
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wessongroup
Platinum Nomad
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Some really good points... it all helps... 
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64722
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
Actually where he is closing the road to his property is 6 miles from Mike's Sky Rancho and was for years posted as no trespassing. I think SCORE got
an OK for a few races before Mike got the property or started developing it. Also the turn off for his place is from a road that goes west also to El
Coyote. It part of a loop from Mike's Sky Rancho back to it and there are two cross over sections. Here is a not to scale map of the area. The turn
off to Astrobaja's place is the lower right for La Concepcion. When I did the map his place was posted as R, La Jolla.
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I love your map Tom! Very easy and clear...
Here is one with mileages along the road we took to Mike's back in late 2005:
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astrobaja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 952
Registered: 5-22-2006
Location: near San Pedro Martir Park
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Roberto and Unomas,
You made good points but its not the locals who are being affected. Our only neigbor whos uses our road is Soren Meling who owns rancho La Joya just
below us. He of course got a copy of the key to the front gate (observatory road). BTW that group from Mexicali who broke through got to the front
gate after passing our place and found it locked. I had radioed the condor folk who also have a key to go down and unlock it so that the tour would
not damage it, but they could not arrive in time. Soren must have noticed the group and quickly went out to unlock it for them. It was good for this
group to see that not just "foreigners" were affected. Soren approves of the gates presence as it gives him some form of security from people who
steal.
About the danger from growers: 4 years ago there were groups of growers on our ranch and down at La Joya but the military cleaned them out before we
even arrived. Since then with more traffic here they have surely moved on to other places. These growers are at the the very smallest fish and do not
want any sort of attention or confrontation. There may still be some up in the park and towrds Mikes near the San Rafael stream, but here there are
none.
The idea of moving the road is totally unfeasable given the terrain it would take a huge amount of money.
We are writing an e-mail to a few of the off road groups with whom we have had good relations in the past to try to spread the word about fixing the
Coyote road. Its in the hands of SCORE and ultimately Coyote to make the decision if its ok or not.
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
Douglas Adams
our website: http://bajadarkskies.com |
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lkane
Newbie
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Registered: 2-18-2009
Location: So Cal
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| Quote: | Originally posted by astrobaja
So sorry to inconvenience you Jim, but we LIVE here, 100% of the time. We don't want growers coming through and deal with all the trash and pulling
drunk Mexican off roaders out of the ditch cause they can hardly see.
And when we go away anybody can just drive up and steal what they want?
Tell you what why not leave your front and back door unlocked at your house and I'll tell people to come and go as they please, you trust them don't
you?
From what I'm told theres other roads in the Sierra Juarez that are being closed too, just a fact of a changing world! |
Hi Nomads,
I wanted to comment on this post. I realize I am a visitor and in no way represent anyone's opinion but that of myself.
What has prompted my reply to this post is that I find it ironic that Astro has entitled this "The Last Straw" and goes on to label "off roaders" as
imposters and "drunks".
I consistently hear of these issues and have directly worked on mending the relationships between land owners and those seeking access.
First, Sierra Juarez has certain access issues but they are in no way like this. And, there are working relationships between "off roaders" and the
ejidos in that area. The Ejido Sierra Juarez has always been open to conversation with off roaders and over the years there has been a lot of
positive development. So I say, entirely different.
2 years ago Astro was stranded on his property to the extent that he needed a helicopter to drop him supplies.
Remember?:
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=43761&pag...
At that time approximately 10 volunteers in four vehicles from a goodwill organization of "off roaders" from Racers and Ranchers ventured down to the
road to Astro and spent hours making their way into his property from the highway to provide relief and access. They did this entire effort on their
own dime to help a land owner in need.
Another local off roader even ventured in prior to the groups arrival and delivered fuel to Astro by way of riding it in on his motorcycle.
That same evening as the group made their way through the washed out road, a much larger group of "off roaders" accessed their way into Astro's road
from the north. This was a large group from Mexico and the US on an annual off road trek. Working into the night and freezing temperatures the two
groups of "off roaders were able to make Astro's road passable when it was impassable.
Did I mention that we even stopped and purchased food and other requested items prior to our arrival?
At the time Astro and his lovely wife were glad to see all these "off roaders". I will say that I am almost certain that several of the same
imposters from the larger group that helped them two years ago were the same imposters that were part of this recent large group in question.
In fact here is a shot of the imposters clearing Astros road... drunks?
I find this ironic, since back 2 years ago Astro welcomed all the man power and now its "The Last Straw".
I went back to that post and see that Astro never mentioned all the help he received from those rogue imposters.
During that visit there was a lot of conversation about access through this property. Street signs were donated to Astro for the purpose of notifying
passers by to respect property, close all gates and watch out for livestock.
There was even a conversation about an old road that is on the property that would bring people around the property, away from the home. The
recommendation at the time was to clear that road to avoid future issues.
Astro and Pam were great hosts for the volunteers and we were appreciative of the warm fire on a cold winter night.
The best resolution to this issue is compromise. That road has been utilized for many years. "Off roaders" come in many forms, not all good, but not
all bad; some like nature and creation and some like beer. Kinda like alot of people out there.
Smashing out a window with a shovel may not have been the best move. The Mikes road is too destroyed and too costly to doze. The fastest fix is the
doze that old road around your property and leave the gate unlocked. A locked gate wont stop anyone who is late on the trail, cold and needing a warm
destination. Personally I dont go through locked gates but like I said, I hear about these issues constantly and have had these conversations many
times with both land owners and off roaders.
You may live there "100% " of the time but there are still certain things you may not be able to change. We are gringos in Mexico. That always
requires solid discernment. We cant expect Mexicans to think like Canadians or Americans.
There are off roaders out there that would assist in a compromise where all are winners. Try asking for help to resolve the issue from those who you
currently dont like. You may find more people interested in helping to resolve the issue than not.
I was not involved in this recent mishap. I just think Astro is taking the wrong approach.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64722
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Off Roaders are PEOPLE afterall... and there are good and bad. I think Mike has a right to be fed up, and am sure he has not forgotten us 'good' off
roaders! As he said, he can be contacted to obtain permission to cross his land. .... Right Mike?
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StevenB
Newbie
Posts: 6
Registered: 1-12-2010
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Canadian Arrogance
When I talked with Aida Meling (God rest her soul) and her daughter Duane, they loved off-roaders. Lots of "anti off-road and race" myths dispersed.
When the Wirths' first bought the Meling property, they told me personally "we'll never allow a Score race through here" based upon accusations of
"non-payment" by the owner of Rancho Potrero to the south. This is also when I heard about an "astronomy bed and breakfast." Hmmm.
The Wirths built their guest house only inches from the road (aka Score course). Oh, see a problem?
The Wirth's desparately wanted lkane's group "Racers and Ranchers" to help rebuild their road after the Jan 2010 floods. See related post and pics.
Mike Wirth, what was your agenda? Get Mike Leon to grade the road from Mike's Sky Ranch south to your property, so the Kiliwas workers building your
house would have a direct access to your property? Isn't that what you told me when I personally visited you and Pam? You were upset after the floods
that these workers would have to drive the "long way" to complete the building of your house.
I have talked with Esteban Meling and Mike Leon about this. Both love to see Score races through their property. Mike Leon also stated that if Score
wanted to run a route by your property, it would be the EJIDO's decison, not yours. Good luck in tying that up in the non-partial Mexican judicial
system.
Stop using pot farmers as your excuse. You want to build a fortress in the Sierra San Pedro Martir that is invincible. Good Luck with that, Mr
Canadian Brain trust.
And oh by the way, click that shotgun off "safety" every night you go to bed. And complete your research on camino viceral.
Are you freaking kidding me?
Steve, Baja Off-roader
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18058
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by StevenB
And oh by the way, click that shotgun off "safety" every night you go to bed.
Steve, Baja Off-roader |
steve,
you sound like a typical offroad knucklegragger. threatening private property owners is not going to win you friends.
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StevenB
Newbie
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Registered: 1-12-2010
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Not at all, Tom. I just spend a lot more time down there and talk to these folks than you do.
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astrobaja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 952
Registered: 5-22-2006
Location: near San Pedro Martir Park
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Mood: beam me up
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Morning Lance,
Hope all is well with you and your family! First off I would like to re-iterate how how we appreciated your group of volunteers help after that huge
El Nino storm a couple years back.
But please let me correct you in that I never called the 4X4 groups "imposters". Imposters to me means they would be trying to pass themselves off as
someone else, sorry but that makes no sense to me.
I did however call SOME of them drunks, why? Because some of the groups from Mexicali/Sonora/Tijuana ARE so drunk that they can hardly drive, once one
of them almost drove over my Wifes foot (not intentionally of course).
We have had 2 groups with exemplary manners, (e-mailed in advance asking permision and did not litter when they passed, closed all gates behind them)
One was a small group from TJ another was a group called the Cameleones. Both are certainly welcome back!
But unfortunately the MAJORITY does not even acknowledge our existence, break gates, litter never stop to ask if it is ok to pass the property!
We have been givin out cards with contact info for a full year before the gates went up telling the various groups that they needed to contact us 1st
for future permission to pass. Only the 2 4X4 groups I mentioned ever bothered to do that! I should also mention that ALL of the US based tour groups
(mostly bikes) have been cordial and always e-mailed us 1st, so no problem there at all!!!
Ok next point. You mentioned the time just after the storm when you guys came to help us. You said a big 4X4 group helped get part of the rocky road
passable, that IS true. It is also true that they are probably the same group that just recently gave us trouble. Back after the storm they passed
through and never once asked if 1.) are you guys ok do you need anything
Actually its like we were invisible annd they were just passing through!!!
We DID give that same group our contact info last year when they passed through but they never contacted us even after we explained about the gates
and that it was PRIVATE property NOT ejido!!
So theres the type of off road group we DO have a problem with!! Its a simple question of lack of respect.
Ok last point here. You mentioned about the possibility of re-opening an "old" road..... WHAT old road are you even talking about?????
Theres a 1/4 mile road on the other side of our arroyo that leads up to an old Kiliwa house, but it does NOT link up with anything! And even if it
did it just links up with our road. You could I suppose bulldoze a road up through heavily wooded areas to Rancho Cienega De Soto (owned by Andres
Meling who is in his late 80's -lives in Ensenada) but then you would have to get his permission as well. It would be hugely expensive to do this, its
VERY steep and difficult terrain, sorry but this makes absolutely no sense to me. If you don't believe me come on down and check it out for yourself,
I'll be glad to hike it with you! Or just look on googleearth its NOT an old road. Try mule path from 60 years ago heavily overgrown!!!
No, the logical path to repair is the route from Mikes through to Coyote. I mean the race went through exactly that road just a few years ago. It can
be fixed, the bad spot is maybe a half mile from what I've been told!
Like I said numerous times if we get permission to do it we would be happy to contribute towards that solution.
Believe me Lance we are NOT trying to lump all off roaders together! There are many responsible people among the various 4x4 clubs, tour companies and
loose affiliations.
take care
Mike and Pamela
[Edited on 2-11-2012 by astrobaja]
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
Douglas Adams
our website: http://bajadarkskies.com |
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astrobaja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 952
Registered: 5-22-2006
Location: near San Pedro Martir Park
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Mood: beam me up
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Ok on to the guy that likes to use threats!
Hi Steve B (and your last name is???)
On to your "points" Well actually it WAS Duane that suggested to us that we need to put up gates in the 1st place! Next time you see her ask her to
tell you the story about when Mickey Thompson tried to pass through Concepcion and how Aida turned him back. LOL it made our "response" seem pretty
passive!
Whats our "agenda"??? Well apart from just wanting to be left in peace, not much...
When you supposedly visited us after the storm/floods our house was already completed there were no more workers so I think you're a bit confused
there....
If Esteban and Mike want the race great more power to them, we'll even help to fix the road, no problem there. But our property IS privatley owned,
NOTHING to do with ANY ejido!!!
have a nice day
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
Douglas Adams
our website: http://bajadarkskies.com |
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StevenB
Newbie
Posts: 6
Registered: 1-12-2010
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It's not a threat, it's simply sound ADVICE. Taking shovels to local Mexicans and stirring up the pot farmers is rational? All the best to you and
your wife - the battalion cannot get to your property as fast as you think they can.
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TMW
Select Nomad
Posts: 10659
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Location: Bakersfield, CA
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I remember at the 1987 1000 race Aida Meling had her ranch hands armed with rifles to stop the racers from prerunning and was not going to let them
run the race thru her property. The pre runners were leaving the gates open and the cattle were getting out. A pre run buggie speeding past her car on
the observatory road throwing rocks at her from it's wheels and that was the last straw for her. The government stepped in to calm things down and the
race went on but the friction continued for some time. That was my first Baja race as a competitor.
[Edited on 2-11-2012 by TW]
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lkane
Newbie
Posts: 8
Registered: 2-18-2009
Location: So Cal
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Mike,
No need to hike with you. I was only referring to the conversation I had with Pam about an old road which, if I recall correctly, went over the hill
east of your home. I never did see it or ask to see it. Keep me posted on your progress. You have my email. Things need to be ironed out. This
division and labeling of people drives me crazy. The area where you live above Coyote is beautiful.
Best Regards
LK
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motoged
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6481
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Location: Kamloops, BC
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Mood: Gettin' Better
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| Quote: | Originally posted by UnoMas
...... I admit I do not know anything about this situation.
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Typical of so many BN replies...
"I don't know anything...but here's my opinion..."...
Don't believe everything you think....
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TMW
Select Nomad
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I just heard from a friend that the road from El Coyote to Mike's Sky Ranch is doable by truck. That would be the route on the hand drawn map above
from 5 past 6, 7, and 8 to 1. Just to make sure I plan to check it out either before or just after the SF250 race.
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astrobaja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 952
Registered: 5-22-2006
Location: near San Pedro Martir Park
Member Is Offline
Mood: beam me up
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Tom we really appreciate that update! Maybe if a few more groups are willing to fix up that route a bit more it will be more usable.
Its seems that 4X4 club that behaved so badly at our place was mainly from Mexicali (with a few from TJ). But they also were pretty poorly behaved
when they got up to the park. The guys were urinating in the middle of the road in front of the park office! Their behavior was refered to as a
"desmadre"!
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
Douglas Adams
our website: http://bajadarkskies.com |
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