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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65106
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Not the same... Americans don't come into Mexico en mass to get free services, have babies (to get more free services), and in any way burden the
Mexican taxpayer. |
no, they come en mass to work for gringos for low wages.
while they are here they pay taxes, make gringos rich by providing low cost labor, etc., i think they contribute more than they partake in govt
services. it all depends on how you measure what you measure. |
I have never seen any Mexican work for an amount he wasn't okay with getting, and I have never known anyone in the industry I am associated with
(landscape construction) to pay illegal low amounts. Nobody forces them north at gunpoint.
I personally have used the same man for about 8 years now, I pay him about $20/ hr. and buy launch, we work about 6 hours a day... sometimes more
(when I have work for him, which hasn't been much the past 4 years). He works for various people and he is always happy when I have a job for him. He
is documented, and has lived here for 20 years I think. He has a fairly new wife and son in Tijuana, and a brother in Ensenada, which he frequently
visits. He suffers with the border wait more than most of us.
If this economy was back as it was pre 2007 congress, I would be doing far more work, and sharing more wealth with more people... that's how you grow
an economy... Not by punishing the job creators with higher taxes, more regulations, and socialized health care that was sold to us with lies (it
won't cost $2,500/ month/ family less, you won't get keep your current insurance or doctor as they will be gone or so high priced you will be forced
into another system).
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chuckie
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6082
Registered: 2-20-2012
Location: Kansas Prairies
Member Is Offline
Mood: Weary
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Yada Yada Yada...Wife got a prepaid FMM from Vags....Crossed at Tecate Thursday LESS than 3 minutes to validate....On the road..
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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3577
Registered: 10-2-2006
Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Not the same... Americans don't come into Mexico en mass to get free services, have babies (to get more free services), and in any way burden the
Mexican taxpayer. |
no, they come en mass to work for gringos for low wages.
while they are here they pay taxes, make gringos rich by providing low cost labor, etc., i think they contribute more than they partake in govt
services. it all depends on how you measure what you measure. |
I have never seen any Mexican work for an amount he wasn't okay with getting, and I have never known anyone in the industry I am associated with
(landscape construction) to pay illegal low amounts. Nobody forces them north at gunpoint.
I personally have used the same man for about 8 years now, I pay him about $20/ hr. and buy launch, we work about 6 hours a day... sometimes more
(when I have work for him, which hasn't been much the past 4 years). He works for various people and he is always happy when I have a job for him. He
is documented, and has lived here for 20 years I think. He has a fairly new wife and son in Tijuana, and a brother in Ensenada, which he frequently
visits. He suffers with the border wait more than most of us.
If this economy was back as it was pre 2007 congress, I would be doing far more work, and sharing more wealth with more people... that's how you grow
an economy... Not by punishing the job creators with higher taxes, more regulations, and socialized health care that was sold to us with lies (it
won't cost $2,500/ month/ family less, you won't get keep your current insurance or doctor as they will be gone or so high priced you will be forced
into another system). |
You're doing your best to make this thread about you. Aren't you? And your Republican politics?
US Marines: providing enemies of America an opportunity to die for their country since 1775.
What I say before any important decision.
F*ck it.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65106
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Not at all, but it was to respond to Goat's assertion that American business is evil and the rest of the socialist crap. Is socialism not the enemy of
free people anymore. Is it okay for one point of view (MtGoat666) and not another? See the Villa Bahia thread if you don't know what I am talking
about here.
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sancho
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2524
Registered: 10-6-2004
Location: OC So Cal
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Show me (us) a Mexican Federal Government web page that says you can't get an FMM on Monday and use it to come back on Saturday
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Couldn't find a Mex Govt site, but I did find a note on bajabound that CLEARLY states 'not for mulitiple entries',
I know you champion bajabound, so you should let
them know their site is incorrect:
http://www.bajabound.com/before/permits/visa.php
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65106
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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I also write for Baja Bound, so I appreciate your upholding their sources so highly!
Please do what you feel you must to obey the letter of the law. I think I obey the 'spirit of the law' as much as the next guy, and if a 'letter' from
the INM that cleary says the 180 day FMM is not always good for all 180 days, that it magically invalidates itself if you cross back north before the
180 days ends, I will bow to this cloudy detail. I would also like to read in this new letter where the south limit of the 'Border Zone' is in Baja.
Before I get pounced on (again) for posting my beliefs here, let me tell you that other than re-crossing 5 days after getting FMMs for our 15 day
trip, I have NOT been south of the 'border zone' or be in Mexico longer than 3 days before the FMM expired. So, I didn't break the letter of the law.
Recrossing several days after getting our FMM was A-OK with the INM officer... but it sounds like you think it was no good for the second trip into
Mexico?
What Mexico's INM and Baja Nomad (to help Baja) needs to work on is getting people to go Baja (or go again)... The money spent by vacationing
Americans WAY WAY out supports Mexico than a $23 fee, paid each trip one takes south. KISS (Keep It Simple Silly)!
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paranewbi
Senior Nomad
Posts: 913
Registered: 4-15-2011
Location: San diego
Member Is Offline
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"Before I get pounced on (again) for posting my beliefs here, let me tell you that other than re-crossing 5 days after getting FMMs for our 15 day
trip, I have NOT been south of the 'border zone' or be in Mexico longer than 3 days before the FMM expired. So, I didn't break the letter of the law."
DK
Whew! Thanks for clearing that up DK...for a second I thought you were going to have to be excomunicated for not meeting the high standards of
abidance we all have for the letter of the law!
"no, they come en mass to work for gringos for low wages" mtgoat666
They come here to gain a wage that is 4-6 times what they would be paid in their own country for the same work. As for your masses statement
associated with somehow abused peoples, stand at the border on a weekday and count the masses that enter the US for those wages everyday and then
return to Tijuana, Otay, and Tecate while calculating that it is worth every penny for those long lines and long days to take it back to their homes
in Mexico and contribute nothing by paying property taxes, Durable goods taxes, food taxes or gas taxes as those of us who work AND live here do. Add
in the cost of accomidating their entry by providing a massive border system and the crowded highway to get these NON-AGRICULTERAL workers to do the
jobs 'we won't do'. Just sayin
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Mula
Super Nomad
Posts: 1656
Registered: 8-16-2011
Location: San Nicolas y Lopez Mateos
Member Is Offline
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How about all the Americans who live in Baja Norte and work in California or in IT online?
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watizname
Senior Nomad
Posts: 789
Registered: 8-7-2009
Member Is Offline
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I get my FMM's from Vagabundos when I need a new one for a trip. I get the new one validated at the border when I cross, then I figger I'm home free
for six months, and make as many trips as I want until it expires. Then I repeat the process. Might be questionable, but never had a problem. Once
your in Mexico, how'er they gonna tell if you made multiple entries on the same FMM??
My $2 
I yam what I yam and that\'s all what I yam.
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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5912
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
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Just to muddy the water some more, when I got my FMM 2 weeks ago, the officer at San Ysidro said there was no longer a "border zone" nor a "72 hour
window".
He told my Mexican wife in perfect understandable Spanish that if you come to TJ for a taco for 10 minutes, you need an FMM.
That's what he said.
We got ours and paid at the 24 hour bank and were on our way in 10 minutes.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65106
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by paranewbi
"Before I get pounced on (again) for posting my beliefs here, let me tell you that other than re-crossing 5 days after getting FMMs for our 15 day
trip, I have NOT been south of the 'border zone' or be in Mexico longer than 3 days before the FMM expired. So, I didn't break the letter of the law."
DK
Whew! Thanks for clearing that up DK...for a second I thought you were going to have to be excomunicated for not meeting the high standards of
abidance we all have for the letter of the law!
"no, they come en mass to work for gringos for low wages" mtgoat666
They come here to gain a wage that is 4-6 times what they would be paid in their own country for the same work. As for your masses statement
associated with somehow abused peoples, stand at the border on a weekday and count the masses that enter the US for those wages everyday and then
return to Tijuana, Otay, and Tecate while calculating that it is worth every penny for those long lines and long days to take it back to their homes
in Mexico and contribute nothing by paying property taxes, Durable goods taxes, food taxes or gas taxes as those of us who work AND live here do. Add
in the cost of accomidating their entry by providing a massive border system and the crowded highway to get these NON-AGRICULTERAL workers to do the
jobs 'we won't do'. Just sayin |
Thank you!
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65106
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mula
How about all the Americans who live in Baja Norte and work in California or in IT online? |
So, are you presuming they have only FMM tourist cards or no visa at all... in both cases a violation? Unless the stop and pay $23 every day they
return to their home in Mexico?
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65106
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by watizname
I get my FMM's from Vagabundos when I need a new one for a trip. I get the new one validated at the border when I cross, then I figger I'm home free
for six months, and make as many trips as I want until it expires. Then I repeat the process. Might be questionable, but never had a problem. Once
your in Mexico, how'er they gonna tell if you made multiple entries on the same FMM??
My $2 |
Pretty much who most of us see it... right or wrong. At least we pay for a new one once the old one expires for our next trip to Baja Sur. How many do
you think don't ever bother? 80%, more...? Count the U.S. cars crossing the border, then count how many are at the INM office getting a new FMM at
that moment... ! Right???!
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65106
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ateo
Just to muddy the water some more, when I got my FMM 2 weeks ago, the officer at San Ysidro said there was no longer a "border zone" nor a "72 hour
window".
He told my Mexican wife in perfect understandable Spanish that if you come to TJ for a taco for 10 minutes, you need an FMM.
That's what he said.
We got ours and paid at the 24 hour bank and were on our way in 10 minutes. |
Of course we know the guy must be on drugs or in need of a reality check... Tijuana has the world's busiest border crossing. If every non-Mexican car
and pedestrian stopped at INM to get a tourist card... even the FREE 7 DAY FMM... none of us would ever be able to get into Baja.... the INM line
would stretch north... to the Golden Gate Bridge!
Visits into the border towns, and as far as Punta Banda/ Maneadero for up to 3 days has to be free flowing or tourism by drivers and pedestrians would
surely come to a halt. Sonora also has a border zone for visitors to El Golfo and Puerto Peņasco... maybe further? I know you don't need a car import
permit if you go no further south than Guaymas.
My discussing this topic is meant to encourage more Americans to visit Baja, and not break laws. By going to Baja (and norther Sonora) we so greatly
improve the income for Mexicans there. The people should come first, not feeding some government bureaucracy that prevents the money flowing south by
its lack of clarity!
IF an FMM was required at a certain point southbound, then the government would enforce it as they had years ago near Maneadero, with a migra
checkpoint... AND THEY DO, AT THE BAJA CA SUR border (on Hwy. 1).
They want as many tourists to be in Baja as possible, so a roadblock to get FMMs at Tijuana would be out-of-the-question, wouldn't it?
Thank you for discussing this and what you were told in Tijuana... I wonder if he gets a % of the take in for 180 day FMMs?   
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sancho
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2524
Registered: 10-6-2004
Location: OC So Cal
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ateo
Just to muddy the water some more, when I got my FMM 2 weeks ago, the officer at San Ysidro said there was no longer a "border zone" nor a "72 hour
window".
He told my Mexican wife in perfect understandable Spanish that if you come to TJ for a taco for 10 minutes, you need an FMM.
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Always clear as MUD, there was a guy going fishing SQ,
stopped for a free 7 day fmm, was told the free cards
are good only as far so. as Rosarito Beach, after that the
$24 dll fmm. I have read a recent Mex Govt publications
stating ALL VISITORS TO MEX NEED AN FMM, we all can
agree Mex Imm regs have never been clear, always vague
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RnR
Senior Nomad
Posts: 839
Registered: 5-1-2010
Member Is Offline
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Okay, here's some facts straight from the mouth of an INM officer from the La Paz office.
Background: I was visiting with my Mexican neighbors just down the street a few hours ago. Their daughter is an INM officer in the La Paz office.
Guess who walked in the door for the Sunday afternoon family gathering??
So, this was a great opportunity to get some actual facts onto the Nomad board. She actually pulled out her phone, pulled up this thread, read parts
of it, kinda smiled, and here are her comments:
1. The FMM is a single visit permit and must be turned in when the holder leaves Mexico. Period!
2. The fact that FMM stands for "Forma Migratoria Multiple" means "multi-purpose" form not "multiple entry" form.
3. One purpose of the form is for collecting statistical data on visitors to Mexico. IE: residence location, areas visited, length of stay, mode of
transportation, etc. (If you read the form, this statistical purpose is stated in two places.)
4. Not turning the form in, multiple visits, keeping it open beyond the end of your visit, etc skews the data that the Mexican government is trying
to collect.
5. Control of the form for tourists arriving by air and ship is very good and provides accurate data. Land borders are more difficult to control
(now) and INM knows the data is not correct. However, land visits for people actually needing the FMM form (those traveling outside the border zones)
is a small percentage of the total visitors to Mexico and the statistics are adjusted.
6. She couldn't comment on the border zone boundaries as it is outside the jurisdiction of the La Paz office. You would need to ask at one of the
local border offices.
So there are the facts straight from an immigration officer. Understand the facts and do what is best for you, individually.
Attached is an excerpt from the top of the departure ticket for the current FMM:
[Edited on 3-18-2013 by RnR]
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Not at all, but it was to respond to Goat's assertion that American business is evil and the rest of the socialist crap. Is socialism not the enemy of
free people anymore. Is it okay for one point of view (MtGoat666) and not another? See the Villa Bahia thread if you don't know what I am talking
about here. |
Curious, in which post made by goat, did he mention or even allude to socialism or state that business is evil?
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6700
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline
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RnR. thanks for something factual that goes beyond "I just know"
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by RnR
5. Control of the form for tourists arriving by air and ship is very good and provides accurate data. Land borders are more difficult to control
(now) and INM knows the data is not correct. However, land visits for people actually needing the FMM form (those traveling outside the border zones)
is a small percentage of the total visitors to Mexico and the statistics are adjusted.
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Thanks --- excellent conversation and information. Number 5 is interesting because I think many of us forget that most of the tourists beyond the
border zone do not arrive by car and many who do drive have some different immigration status.
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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5912
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
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RnR rules!
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