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chuckie
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Location: Kansas Prairies
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And maybe get a researcher...
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ncampion
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Location: Loreto
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We recently saw a great example of the free market at work in Loreto. For years we had the same old "stinky" markets offering the same old wilted
vegetables, crappy meat and other products. Then one day the Ley Express comes to town and now all the markets are scrambling to compete. Shelves
stocked, better produce and meat, new refrigeration and clean floors. They didn't feel the need to do any of this when everyone was the same. I hope
they can make it as I lik the "mom and pop" markets, but it bothers me that they didn't make any effort to improve their service until somebody raised
the bar. That's the way socialism works.
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MitchMan
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What you are all talking about is macroeconomics. Do any of you actually know what you are talking about?
It amazes me how everyone is so assertive with their opinions on macroeconomic matters while at the same time it is so abundantly obvious most all of
you do not know even the fundamental basics of either micro or macro economics.
When you say ”business creates jobs” or “the wealthy create jobs for the rest of us”, you are making a purely macroeconomic
conclusion.
To make matters worse, many of you take your ignorance and your resultant erred opinions and conclusions to new heights of folly by blaming all those
that disagree with you as guilty of “blaming the wealthy”. And, there are those that do view the wealthy as a suspect class, erroneously implying
that the rich and wealthy act and behave as a single monolithic demon.
Then, there are those of you who erroneously try to pit all this into indictments of either “big business” or “big government”. Lastly, there are
those of you who blindly adopt “FREE ENTERPRISE SYSTEM” as some kind of ever perfectly working ultimate religion. Have any of you even actually read
what Adam Smith actually wrote? How naïve!
First of all, business, small or large, doesn’t “create” jobs, only an “economy and a society” can create jobs. For example, in our country, in order
for jobs to exist in an organized society, there has to be, for the greater big picture, coexistence of the following FACTORS:
1. Customers (a demand customer market)
2. Qualified labor availability (a labor market)
3. An infrastructure
4. System of laws and governance
5. Production resources and business management (i.e., a business)
Business is Number 5 on the list because all the other factors have to be present before it makes sense for a business to engage in business activity
and fill that vacuum created by numbers 1 thru 4. Business is a participant in the economy, not the creator. Business is not more important than the
other 4 items, it is an equal “partner-component” to/of an economic system.
To have a religious reverence for “business” as the seminal causal factor for the existence of commerce and “jobs” is to ignore and take for granted
the all-important “commodity” of a market (customers…people if you will – you know that businesses pay for promotion and advertising just to get more
“customers”) and labor (the people, if you will).
Who among you would invest in a business that would have no customers or for which there was no labor market to draw from? Anybody?
Just so that you will get it, without a demand for a product, that is, without any customers for a product, no entrepreneur will build a business
around a product that will not sell. If there are no employees available, the business couldn’t grow beyond the size of its owner.
No customers, no business. No employees, no business beyond the size of its number of owners. No infrastructure, no way for customers or employees
to get to the business, no safety, no efficiency, no lights, no gas, no water potable or otherwise, no sewage or drainage, no communications, no
delivery of production resources or products sold, no education of employees, no disease control, no roads, traffic lights, etc., etc., etc.
If there is no system of laws or existence of governance, no law enforcement or police protection, no judicial system, no contract enforcement, no
civil defense, no military defense, no consumer protection, no effective interstate or intrastate commerce system, no international treaties, etc.,
etc., etc.
For example, which of you would start a Starbucks in the middle of desert where there are no customers or employees or means of transport?
I mean, if business creates jobs all by itself, in a vacuum, go create jobs in the middle of the ocean, or in outer space, or in the middle of a
desert and try to maintain profits without ever having the availability of customers, labor, infrastructure or law enforcement.
What we have is an economy, an economic system, such as it is. I believe that most societies get the government that they deserve. I also believe
that we get the economy that we collectively deserve as well. Most of the rich and wealthy are good people participating in the economy as it is
structured. There are bad players among them, but they are a small minority within the group of the rich and wealthy. But, for the most part, they
are participating in the economic system that we as a society have “allowed” to evolve to its current structure.
To demonize the poor and venerate the successful reflects a lack of objectivity and seems to be the “religion” of many these days. Religion…faith
based, not fact based. If you are going to submit your opinions on economics, get your “facts” straight and at least educate yourself on the basics
of economics.
Know that NO market-based economy is perfect and probably never will be. Certainly not our own. Know what the failures are and why…be objective and
informed. I prefer a market based capitalist system to others at this point, but understand that any economy, even a market based one, will always be
a work in progress. The same goes for government…any all governments are and should be a work in progress.
BTW, for those of you who think poor people do not hire anyone, you would be very, very wrong. Small business has more employees than big business.
Many, many small businesses that have employees are barely making it. There are many small and large businesses where certain of the employees
actually make more than the owners…not as rare as you think.
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chuckie
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6082
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Location: Kansas Prairies
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Thanks for the enlightenment......Right on the subject of the post..which was?
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David K
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I had not heard before this thread that Carlos Slim owned the La Fortuna gold mine.... so as with other stuff here, one learns something new every
day! 
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chuckie
Elite Nomad
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If true....
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CortezBlue
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Location: Fenix/San Phelipe
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Wow, how posting a small article about the gold mine near San Felipe can cause such an extreme group of positions. It was more to show that Carlos
does have some interest in the San Felipe area. Also, I think it is interesting to see a stock have a glitch and get such a punch and then have it
reversed.
If you follow the Mexico financial environment Carlos has had many run ins with the Mexican government around his many holdings as of late.
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18422
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Why some people put their faith in BIG GOVERNMENT instead of the FREE ENTERPRISE SYSTEM is beyond me!?? Business (enterprise) creates wealth... and
government steals it... to create programs for popularity and get re-elected... for their personal, selfish desires... all under the guise that they
are doing it for the common man. Enterprise (business) rewards those who work, invest, and take risks to create more business. Government is the
opposite: It punishes those who have success or invests in America. Now, back to your original program...  |
business in USA does not thrive without a big stable government creating infrastructure and stability, and facilitating the economic system.
free market without regulation is a failure. regulation is necessary to curb the excesses of capitalism.
the USA has thrived because of government providing systems and stability and regulation.
govt can be very beneficial.
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David K
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Agree that the purpose of any government is to protect the people from force or fraud... anything beyond that is exceeding the mandate of the
constitution and an infringement on our freedom.
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
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David K, our Constitution provides for much, much more than that. Even if the Constitution was limited to just protecting people from only force and
fraud, that could be (and has been) interpreted broadly or narrowly with tons of room in between.
Spot on, goat.
[Edited on 9-8-2013 by MitchMan]
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Agree that the purpose of any government is to protect the people from force or fraud... anything beyond that is exceeding the mandate of the
constitution and an infringement on our freedom. |
bs!
i happen to like the roads i drive every day, they seem to be quite convenient, eh?. i happen to like PBS. i like the FDA. i like the EPA. i like
national parks and public lands. i don't mind paying taxes, as govt provides a lot of useful things.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
i don't mind paying taxes, as govt provides a lot of useful things. |
And, as a special treat just for you.....they may be providing us with another war any day now.
Be sure to act surprised.
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
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Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
govt can be very beneficial. |
Yup, just look at what they did to/with Social Security (our money), the education system in the US and how they treat our veterans..........yup, very
beneficial
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18422
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajaguy
| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
govt can be very beneficial. |
Yup, just look at what they did to/with Social Security (our money), the education system in the US and how they treat our veterans..........yup, very
beneficial |
does more beneficial than bad. you see one thing you dont like, so you condemn everything? silly little man!
btw, SS seems to still be OK, just needs a minor adjustment, education seems to still be doing OK, and I agree with you that veterans get plenty of
benefits, but i do wish they would quit whining for more 
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
[ and I agree with you that veterans get plenty of benefits, but i do wish they would quit whining for more |
Something for you to celebrate, Goat:
--------------------------------------------------------
1. Obama Slashes Pay Raises for Military
President Obama has told Congress he will cap next year's pay raise for U.S. military personnel at 1 percent instead of boosting pay by 1.8 percent as
called for by a federal law.
The president's move will negatively impact American combat troops scheduled to remain in Afghanistan through 2014.
The federal law says military pay raises must be based on the Employment Cost Index compiled by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which ties military
raises to private sector pay growth. Under that formula, military personnel should be getting a 1.8 percent pay raise beginning in January 2014, CNS
News reported.
But the law also states that the president can inform Congress of an alternative pay adjustment "if because of national emergency or serious economic
conditions affecting the general welfare, the president considers the pay adjustment which would otherwise be required by this section in any year to
be inappropriate."
Obama wrote to congressional leaders: "I am strongly committed to supporting our uniformed service members, who have made such great contributions to
our nation over the past decade of war. As our country continues to recover from serious economic conditions affecting the general welfare, however,
we must maintain efforts to keep our nation on a sustainable fiscal course."
He also asserted that his decision "will not materially affect the federal government's ability to attract and retain well-qualified members" of the
military.
The House passed a bill in July authorizing the 1.8 percent raise, but the Senate has set the raise at 1 percent as recommended by Obama.
Military pay rose 1.7 percent this year and 1.6 percent in 2012.
Retired Air Force Col. Mike Hayden, director of government relations for the Military Officers Association of America (MOAA), calculated that the
reduced pay raise could cost an officer with 10 years of service about $52 a month next year, or $8,000 over the remaining years of his or her career.
It would also cost a service member $20,000 in retirement pay.
Hayden wrote on the MOAA website: "Over the past 12 years, Congress worked hard to fix the 13.5 percent pay gap (and resulting retention problems)
caused by repeatedly capping military raises below private-sector pay growth in the 1980s and 1990s.
"History has shown that once Congress starts accepting proposals to cap military pay below private-sector growth, pay caps continue until they have
weakened retention and readiness."
http://news.newsmax.com/?Z6IvYYf7OWAn0hT4IaTn6taZRXbkbLRAZ
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
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Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
btw, SS seems to still be OK, just needs a minor adjustment, education seems to still be doing OK, and I agree with you that veterans get plenty of
benefits, but i do wish they would quit whining for more |
The government raided the SS system, the education system in the states is below average and the veterans are not getting the care/service they
need......I wish the veterans would whine for more, but you wouldn't know. You didn't serve, did you???.........you, goat are the little man
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chuckie
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6082
Registered: 2-20-2012
Location: Kansas Prairies
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Its all Carlos Slims fault..come on admit it.....And lots of socialistic gimme guys, and quotes from Economics 101....and Veteran bashing is always
good reading....Pretty disgusting stuff....
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64862
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Agree that the purpose of any government is to protect the people from force or fraud... anything beyond that is exceeding the mandate of the
constitution and an infringement on our freedom. |
bs!
i happen to like the roads i drive every day, they seem to be quite convenient, eh?. i happen to like PBS. i like the FDA. i like the EPA. i like
national parks and public lands. i don't mind paying taxes, as govt provides a lot of useful things. |
Things that are now better produced and provided for by private business... at a fraction of the cost, without lining the pockets of politicians and
union bosses. Last I heard, the government is using the sequestration excuse for closing public places to the people. If PBS ran a few (more)
commercials and had shows the people wanted to watch they wouldn't need tax dollars... and we wouldn't have to see a repeated begging for donations in
the middle of the few good shows they have! 
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chuckie
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6082
Registered: 2-20-2012
Location: Kansas Prairies
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Goat mentality :"The government provides" The "Government" produces nothing, makes nothing..What they "provide" is paid for by those of us who pay
taxes...
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DaliDali
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Posts: 1132
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
What you are all talking about is macroeconomics. Do any of you actually know what you are talking about?
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Macro smackro....
As one vaunted politico put it....."what difference does it make"
Jobs, employees, big and small business....rich and poor and just plain ole working stiffs....are in the business of surviving as best we can.
Some do it better than others.
What is crystal clear, is the current resident of 1600 Pennsylvania DC is clueless.
Appoint this economic adviser, fire that one, hire an "expert" fire an expert.
Tax these people....don't tax these....regulate this industry more....this one less.
Now that some of us are just stupid, uninformed, wrong and just plain ole dumb..even idiots pray tell.......what remains is the same. Weak job growth
and weak economic growth continues unabated. Not enough to keep up certainly.
I am an admitted dumb old panga fisherman from Baja Sur, yet it seems only right to question just what is our leadership in the good old USA doing.
Seems reasonable enough I suppose to ask that.
I hear about this tax and that regulation and how good it will feel and how wonderful we will all be because of it......and I am still listening 4+
years later.
The ultra bottom line and is as obvious as limon juice on an almeja, what is being done just is NOT working.
One can "macro" this to death and until the cows go home.
IT JUST ISN'T WORKING!!!
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