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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ncampion
David, do you believe there is a big pile of gold and jewels left hidden by the Jesuits when they got kicked out???? |
No, and anyone who does lives in a fantasy world! All you need to do is read the padre's letters to realize how poor they lived and suffered many
hardships, including death to apply their cause, to save souls and convert the natives to Spanish citizens.
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mulegemichael
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dk....and i just HAVE to ask; are you catholic?....i would have to guess yes as you are all over the priest stuff....just curious, really......and do
you know what a nun that wanders around blindly is called???....dummy!....a "roaming" catholic!
dyslexia is never having to say you\'re yrros.
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DianaT
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Certainly can't blame the Native Americans for seeking revenge against the people who wanted to destroy their entire way of life and did a good job of
doing so.
I love the dedication in that book on line that refers to the padres as the "pioneers" of civilization" and credit them with "discovering" rivers and
mountains. Even in 1923 the bigotry against the Native Americans was huge.
Then again, that was common. Woodrow Wilson wrote in his History of the US that not one "human being" survived the Battle of the Little Big Horn.
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bajaguy
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History is written by the winner
I don't have a horse in this race, but......
It is unfortunate that there are no "primary sources" provided by the Indigenous Peoples of Baja California.....I'm sure that would put a different
spin on things.
Reminds me of the old saw........"one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"
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DianaT
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Yes, history is written by the victor --- brings to mind two of the many quotes from Voltaire that I like.
"Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes."
And one that seems to fit this history quite well
"Of all religions, the Christian should of course inspire the most tolerance, but until now Christians have been the most intolerant of all men."
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ncampion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
"Of all religions, the Christian should of course inspire the most tolerance, but until now Christians have been the most intolerant of all men."
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Don't think that's been true for quite a while now. I haven't seen too many beheadings done by Christians lately. There seems to be one religion
that has the lock on intolerance during this century.
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mulegemichael
dk....and i just HAVE to ask; are you catholic?....i would have to guess yes as you are all over the priest stuff....just curious, really......and do
you know what a nun that wanders around blindly is called???....dummy!....a "roaming" catholic! |
You asked this before, and I answered (did you not go back after you asked in that thread?)... You have a reason for repeating the same question I
already answered.
I love history of (Baja) California... and religion has ZERO to do with why I read and write about it. It didn't matter what group wrote about Baja,
but it was the Catholics who did all the recording for most of the period I am writing about. It could have been the Jews, Muslims, or Space Aliens...
doesn't matter, as long as someone wrote down what they saw or experienced in Baja California then.
Your comments seem quite disrespectful to Catholics, the people of Baja California. Do you go to their churches and urinate on the doorway?
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ncampion
| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
"Of all religions, the Christian should of course inspire the most tolerance, but until now Christians have been the most intolerant of all men."
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Don't think that's been true for quite a while now. I haven't seen too many beheadings done by Christians lately. There seems to be one religion
that has the lock on intolerance during this century. |
It has changed to a degree among radical elements if one is speaking of physical violence. But it is with the radical elements.
And the same is true of the radical elements of Christianity but with less violence, most of the time. In this country, intolerant they are --- the
new humane Pope is driving many of them crazy.
And back then, for many centuries the Christians won the prize for most intolerant. Even during the time of the Barbary Pirates, one captured by the
Muslims usually fared far better than one captured by the Christians, including some Catholic orders of monks.
It certainly was not just the Catholics, including their mission systems, who were extremely intolerant and brutal in the so called "New World", the
Protestants just did it differently, but the results were the same ---massive deaths and the destruction of many cultures.
History is often not a pretty thing and far too easy to romanticize. EVERY country does that.
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monoloco
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajaguy
I don't have a horse in this race, but......
It is unfortunate that there are no "primary sources" provided by the Indigenous Peoples of Baja California.....I'm sure that would put a different
spin on things.
Reminds me of the old saw........"one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" |
Yes, I'm sure the
original inhabitants of this land would have a different view of the invaders who were responsible for the demise of the people and culture that,
despite a arid and inhospitable environment, flourished here for thousands of years. It is interesting, biased as it may be, to read the accounts of
the early Spanish padres and explorers, it's too bad that no one ever recorded the oral histories or sentiments of the indigenous. Unfortunately they
were just too blinded by their certainty of cultural and religious superiority to see any value in what they considered an inferior race of ignorant
heathens.
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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David K
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The thread is (was?) about the books about the Spanish Period in Baja California... Why turn it into a N-zi style book burning? Not being interested
in reading about the past (or what was said in the past) is fine. How many books were published on the subject shows an interest is there. Condemning
a nation's religion because you don't believe in it or in God is a totally different topic.
As humans migrated, they bring germs and viruses that other humans are not adapted to. Causing death isn't intentional, but it happened. The deaths of
the Indians was a huge failure from what the missionaries hoped for and meant an end to their work.
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monoloco
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
The thread is (was?) about the books about the Spanish Period in Baja California... Why turn it into a N-zi style book burning? Not being interested
in reading about the past (or what was said in the past) is fine. How many books were published on the subject shows an interest is there. Condemning
a nation's religion because you don't believe in it or in God is a totally different topic.
As humans migrated, they bring germs and viruses that other humans are not adapted to. Causing death isn't intentional, but it happened. The deaths of
the Indians was a huge failure from what the missionaries hoped for and meant an end to their work. |
The
Spanish viewed the indigenous people of the New World as little more than slaves to exploit in their quest for riches. I'm sure some of the early
missionaries had a more benevolent attitude, but their primary mission, and the reason they were supported by the crown was the exploitation of
resources to finance Spanish conquest and world domination. The brutality commenced immediately when Columbus stepped onto Hispañola. I don't see
anyone "burning books" here, it's all interesting, we just need to keep it in perspective.
[Edited on 12-28-2013 by monoloco]
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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David K
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An opinion made in recent years... perhaps to be 'politically correct'?
The truth is that the Indians enslaved each other, murdered each other, and if anything, the Spanish halted that activity when they instructed them to
become civilized and live in a community of mutual benefit.
Sure, it totally changed their way of life... but as the documents show, the Indians came to the missions willingly, by the hundreds, to change their
life. Perhaps being naked and hungry wasn't as much fun as having a purpose in a community and eating pozole instead of bugs, bats, and lizards?
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steekers
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
All of what you have listed are someone else's interpretation of primary and secondary sources. The best historians use primary sources, but even
that will reflect bias. There is certainly nothing wrong with putting together information from these books, as long as one is aware that ALL written
history reflects the author's belief system and time in which the history was written. Even translated primary sources reflect bias as often much is
lost in the translation.
History is about 5% facts and 95% interpretation. Facts usually include things like dates, location, who won a battle, building materials, and other
tangible things. But the heart of what something like the Mission system was, is a matter of interpretation, bias, and not fact. And no matter
how many books one reads, that will not change. It is like reading about the American War of Independence, or the American Revolution, or the
Rebellion of the Colonies.
And if you make money from your efforts, good for you. Most people touring places like the missions are really only interested in that 5% of tangible
facts.
[Edited on 11-9-2013 by DianaT] |
And just how did you get the 5% figure for "most people"? Are you a professor of history?
You naysayers ought to give David a break. I rarely write in on this Nomad board, but when I look for interesting things like missions and David is
the author, there seems to be a predictable group of trollers wasting our time badmouthing others...grow up!
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Pompano
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I fear the villagers are storming your gates again, David. But you're used to that by now, I'm sure.
Might be good for all to remember this advice from our childhood:
"Never argue politics or religion."
"No human thing is of great importance."
My morning coffee thoughts went this way: We need some higher water in that river to improve the fishing. And.....How many different points of
view are there about religion today?
Easy peasy, just ask the God, 'Google'
There are about 21 major world religions today. About 1 billion people do not profess belief in any religion.
1. Christianity 2.1 billion
2. Islam 1.3 billion
3. Secular/Irreligious/Agnostic/Atheist 1.1 billion
4. Hinduism 900 million
5. Chinese traditional religion 394 million
6. Buddhism 376 million (see also buddhism by country)
7. Primal indigenous 300 million
8. African traditional and diasporic 100 million
9. Sikhism 23 million
10. Juche 19 million
11. Spiritism 15 million
12. Judaism 14 million
13. Bahá'í Faith 7 million
14. Jainism 4.2 million
15. Shinto 4 million
16. Cao Dai 4 million
17. Zoroastrianism 2.6 million
18. Tenrikyo 2 million
19. Neopaganism 1 million
20. Unitarian Universalism 800,000
21. Rastafari movement 600,000
Interesting. Want to join any? Probably not.
[Edited on 12-28-2013 by Pompano]
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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monoloco
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
An opinion made in recent years... perhaps to be 'politically correct'?
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The way the Spanish treated the indigenous people of the New World is not an opinion, it is well
documented, starting with Columbus"s own written words upon encountering the Arawaks.
http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinncol1.html
What is politically correct, revisionist history is that Columbus and the Conquistadors who followed were some kind of benevolent explorers who just
wanted to spread Christianity. I think you have done a superb job of putting together the history of the Spanish missions in Baja California, but we
shouldn't lose track of why they were sent.
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by steekers
| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
All of what you have listed are someone else's interpretation of primary and secondary sources. The best historians use primary sources, but even
that will reflect bias. There is certainly nothing wrong with putting together information from these books, as long as one is aware that ALL written
history reflects the author's belief system and time in which the history was written. Even translated primary sources reflect bias as often much is
lost in the translation.
History is about 5% facts and 95% interpretation. Facts usually include things like dates, location, who won a battle, building materials, and other
tangible things. But the heart of what something like the Mission system was, is a matter of interpretation, bias, and not fact. And no matter
how many books one reads, that will not change. It is like reading about the American War of Independence, or the American Revolution, or the
Rebellion of the Colonies.
And if you make money from your efforts, good for you. Most people touring places like the missions are really only interested in that 5% of tangible
facts.
[Edited on 11-9-2013 by DianaT] |
And just how did you get the 5% figure for "most people"? Are you a professor of history?
You naysayers ought to give David a break. I rarely write in on this Nomad board, but when I look for interesting things like missions and David is
the author, there seems to be a predictable group of trollers wasting our time badmouthing others...grow up! |
I do not have my doctorate in history, just my masters. And as you can read, I said "about" and I never had any history professor disagree with that.
Probably the most interesting history class any student can take is one in historiography as it opens the door to what history really is all about.
And just how is this "badmouthing"? I was sincere in wishing him success with his book and there is a place for such a book.
"Grow up'? DK asked "fact or fictions". And I responded. His sources are fact AS SEEN BY the only side that recorded in WRITING what happened as
they saw it; including their definition of civilized. And the facts included are things like dates, etc., That is what many people want. Every
book has a market.
And DK? Where in the hell did you come up with book burning? That is really crazy and is simply name calling. All of the books you listed are
valid and for any researcher are worthy of reading.
Why does it bother you so much for people to debate history? That is what it is all about. You seem to feel the need to defend what the Spanish did,
and see it as a good thing; that is your point of view. Others disagree and you resort to name calling. And it has NOTHING to do with agreeing with
anyone's religion or not --- nothing.
Good luck with the book; I hope you can earn some money.
[Edited on 12-28-2013 by DianaT]
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danaeb
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Perhaps being naked and hungry wasn't as much fun as having a purpose in a community and eating pozole instead of bugs, bats, and lizards?
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What? In one of the richest, most diverse marine environments in the world, the indigenous people didn't have an abundance of fish? Or did the
Spaniards also "discover" fish in the Sea of Cortez?
Experience enables you to recognize a mistake every time you repeat it.
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David K
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Not all the Indians lived on the coast... but the ones that did consumed clams, oysters, etc. Hills of their shells are all around Baja... and can be
seen far inland where they shellfish were brought back to their rancherías.
I have not read much about any fishing skills, that I can recall... I will see what I can find...
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
| Quote: | Originally posted by steekers
| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
All of what you have listed are someone else's interpretation of primary and secondary sources. The best historians use primary sources, but even
that will reflect bias. There is certainly nothing wrong with putting together information from these books, as long as one is aware that ALL written
history reflects the author's belief system and time in which the history was written. Even translated primary sources reflect bias as often much is
lost in the translation.
History is about 5% facts and 95% interpretation. Facts usually include things like dates, location, who won a battle, building materials, and other
tangible things. But the heart of what something like the Mission system was, is a matter of interpretation, bias, and not fact. And no matter
how many books one reads, that will not change. It is like reading about the American War of Independence, or the American Revolution, or the
Rebellion of the Colonies.
And if you make money from your efforts, good for you. Most people touring places like the missions are really only interested in that 5% of tangible
facts.
[Edited on 11-9-2013 by DianaT] |
And just how did you get the 5% figure for "most people"? Are you a professor of history?
You naysayers ought to give David a break. I rarely write in on this Nomad board, but when I look for interesting things like missions and David is
the author, there seems to be a predictable group of trollers wasting our time badmouthing others...grow up! |
I do not have my doctorate in history, just my masters. And as you can read, I said "about" and I never had any history professor disagree with that.
Probably the most interesting history class any student can take is one in historiography as it opens the door to what history really is all about.
And just how is this "badmouthing"? I was sincere in wishing him success with his book and there is a place for such a book.
"Grow up'? DK asked "fact or fictions". And I responded. His sources are fact AS SEEN BY the only side that recorded in WRITING what happened as
they saw it; including their definition of civilized. And the facts included are things like dates, etc., That is what many people want. Every
book has a market.
And DK? Where in the hell did you come up with book burning? That is really crazy and is simply name calling. All of the books you listed are
valid and for any researcher are worthy of reading.
Why does it bother you so much for people to debate history? That is what it is all about. You seem to feel the need to defend what the Spanish did,
and see it as a good thing; that is your point of view. Others disagree and you resort to name calling. And it has NOTHING to do with agreeing with
anyone's religion or not --- nothing.
Good luck with the book; I hope you can earn some money.
[Edited on 12-28-2013 by DianaT] |
You keep mentioning money earning... that's not why Max, Erline or I wrote the book. Each book makes us less than $5 after printing, distribution,
shipping and taxes... and that is divided between us 3 authors... so, unless it becomes as popular as Harry Potter, I will still be working in the
dirt installing irrigation systems, thank you.
The reason for the book is to inform and educate the facts and complete story of the founding of ALL 48 California missions. They just didn't
magically begin at San Diego and go northward "a day's ride apart"... Even if you think San Diego was the first mission, do you know that the second
mission was not in Oceanside (San Luis Rey), but at Monterey and moved to Carmel soon after. So, even if Baja missions aren't something you care
about... the 21 missions in Alta California are also shown in the correct order they were founded.
I apologize for the book burning comment, but this thread is about BOOKS and not Catholics or diseases that kill... Soiling the books written about
Baja's past here is akin to burning them so others can't enjoy conversation about what was written.
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Soiling the books written about Baja's past here is akin to burning them so others can't enjoy conversation about what was written.
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DK --- read that statement. It is not only absurd, it makes no sense. A part of the conversation about ANY book, or ANY history is an inclusive
process that includes all opinions, and a complete (or partial) analysis of what is written and or the situation. The end result will be different
for everyone.
It is not soiling a book to discuss its bias, its reflection of the time in which it was written, nor does disagreeing with its conclusions soil it in
any way what so ever.
If those elements are left out of the conversation, it becomes a pile of platitudes.
You don't need to defend why you wrote the book. You have the right to be proud of what you have accomplished. It is what it is.
[Edited on 12-29-2013 by DianaT]
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