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woody with a view
PITA Nomad
Posts: 15939
Registered: 11-8-2004
Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
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Mood: Everchangin'
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Antonio, thanks for the response.
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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Is it possible someone whizzed in his tank while parked?
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J.P.
Super Nomad
Posts: 1673
Registered: 7-8-2010
Location: Punta Banda
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Mood: Easy Does It
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water in diesel
It's commendable that Antonio goes the extra mile to keep water out of the diesel , but there is no bullet proof method to accomplish this, Having
owned and operated several 18 wheel rigs Water in the fuel is just one of the Hazards I always carried a extra fuel filter but most times just
removing the filter and dumping the water out then reinstalling the filter would suffice.
Everyone that operates a diesel rig should familiarize themselves with changing a filter on the road. its something that can be done by you.
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micah202
Super Nomad
Posts: 1615
Registered: 1-19-2011
Location: vancouver,BC
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chuckie
Like I said...FISHY |
...no chuckie-you're wayyy off the mark.......the inventory shows no water,,,and -definitely- no fish!
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chuckie
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6082
Registered: 2-20-2012
Location: Kansas Prairies
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Mood: Weary
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Corrected, I stand....
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13048
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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which gas station in GN were you referring to has bad diesel too....there are 3. The big one at the entrance to town..after you turn into town is
where all the buses fill up...cant imagine they would want bad deisel.
thank you for your response Antonio.
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Cliffy
Senior Nomad
Posts: 986
Registered: 12-19-2013
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I have never seen a more honest and straight forward customer response than this one from Baja Cactus!
I also agree with DM on the snipping and I agree on changing the title of this thread even though I don't believe that DM had any ax to grind only
wanted to inform.
It's easy to take offence with a written word when a disparaging comment was not intended by that written word whether by misinterpretation or wrong
definition or poor phraseology on the writers part.
Obviously harm was not intended but harm was inferred and it looks as if all can be settled with a little calm exchange of commentary.
I used Baja Cactus on my last trip and will do so again if only because of this response.
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3922
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
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Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
Here's a mildly related technical question; when tankers dump new fuel into your underground storage, does that stir up the water in the area de
fondaje?
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Diesel and water have a long history. Over the years, many have accused stations of cheating by selling watered down diesel. In times gone by that was
true on occasion as some shady independent fuel suppliers would buy the "bottom of the barrel" diesel from the refineries at greatly reduced prices.
Back at their yards they would attempt to clean it up and sell it just a few pennies cheaper than the rest and so such problems ensued.
As owner of state certified laboratories I got involved in some of these investigations and gave depositions over the years to explain our lab reports
in such cases. I have been out of the business for awhile but in spite of the fact that stations can go to great extremes to ensure they only fill
their tanks with water free diesel, it is still possible to end up dispensing water in the diesel.
How?
The new low sulfur diesel, because of its additives has a much higher affinity for absorbing water. Moisture via humidity can be absorbed into the
diesel tanks through the tank vents as the diesel level drops and accumulate at the tank bottom. When the tank is nearly empty it is not uncommon then
for even a small volume of water accumulated at the tank bottom to be drawn into the pump suction.
It happens, even with honest, conscientious station owners.
Although you would think El Rosario has lower humidity levels than other places, if they don't routinely pump out their diesel tank bottoms, the
problem could accumulate. Does Antonio have moisture traps on his diesel tank vents and does he regularly inspect and suck out the tank bottoms?
I don't drive diesels down here, largely for this very reason although Reyes does. I have been with him several dozens of times when we filled up his
truck at BajaCactus and never had a problem to date.
Lots of possibilities in this scenario and it is hard to point a finger without a more in depth investigation IMHO.
Also there is an anaerobic biofilm that can build up inside the tank. That biofilm holds water and sometimes when you fill up an empty tank it can
cause that biofilm to break off and clog the filter...
Edit to add - I just read Antonio's post and with the slope bottom tank capacity he quoted and water sensors at 200 liters, it would be difficult,
even with low diesel volume, to agitate the water phase enough to reach the pump suction.
With that info I am leaning more towards the biofilm buildup in the truck's tank scenario.
Just my dos centavos...
[Edited on 8-18-2014 by BajaGringo]
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Cliffy
Senior Nomad
Posts: 986
Registered: 12-19-2013
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In reading Antonio's response he says he sucks the water sump clean every 6 months and just did it a few weeks ago and got 90 ltrs form an 1800 ltr
sump. Not much. also the 1800 ltrs is un-pumpable because the suction tube doesn't reach there.
I've run airport fuel farms and we have the same water issues with Jet A fuel. BajaCactus seems to have a good well run system from what I can read.
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3922
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
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Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cliffy
In reading Antonio's response he says he sucks the water sump clean every 6 months and just did it a few weeks ago and got 90 ltrs form an 1800 ltr
sump. Not much. also the 1800 ltrs is un-pumpable because the suction tube doesn't reach there.
I've run airport fuel farms and we have the same water issues with Jet A fuel. BajaCactus seems to have a good well run system from what I can read.
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I edited my post while you were posting amigo. Hadn't read down to Antonio's post and after doing so, I agree with you...
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micah202
Super Nomad
Posts: 1615
Registered: 1-19-2011
Location: vancouver,BC
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.
...interesting.........it seems 'water-free tanks' is much more of an active verb than a noun!..........helps to understand issues throughout Baja and
the industry as a whole
...edited as with above posts--3x simultaneous thought-addition!
[Edited on 8-18-2014 by micah202]
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3922
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
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Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by micah202
...edited as with above posts--3x simultaneous thought-addition!
[Edited on 8-18-2014 by micah202] |
We're always learning amigo. Ain't life great???
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micah202
Super Nomad
Posts: 1615
Registered: 1-19-2011
Location: vancouver,BC
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
| Quote: | Originally posted by micah202
...edited as with above posts--3x simultaneous thought-addition!
[Edited on 8-18-2014 by micah202] |
We're always learning amigo. Ain't life great???
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....uhhhn,,there you go again being much more trusting and hopeful than reality often allows.....will you -ever- learn!?!?
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64844
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Online
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaCactus
Divemulege... I am sorry for what happened with your vehicle on your past trip. I would have really liked to know about your problem when it happened
in order to help you out. There is indeed a great honest mechanic in El Rosario.
Regarding our diesel, I do not now what happened with your truck, but I can assured you it WAS NOT our fuel and that we DO NOT HAVE WATER in our
tanks. How can I be so sure, well, by regulation all Pemex gas stations must have a series of electronic sensors, with alarms, all along the fuel
lines, starting in the tanks, and Pemex makes sure they are continuously working with scheduled inspections every four months (the "Veeder Root"
mentioned by Ateo is part of this system). These sensors are always checking for fuel leaks, pressure of lines and of course water, in real time.
In our case at BajaCactus our diesel tank has an extra one not required by Pemex that I had installed for an extra layer of protection, specifically
for water, plus an extra filter at the main distribution line to separate any particles and water, just in case.
Now, besides all these, every three months or so, all Pemex gas station receive the visit of a mobile laboratory which main job is to take samples of
the fuel we sell and chemically analyze it, on site. They test the quality of fuel, contamination, particles, water, everything. Well, it so happens
that we just had our visit around 3 weeks ago and we got a clean result. In fact, the lab technician told me he always finds the cleanest fuel all
over Baja at BajaCactus, he even asked to see our additional diesel filter since it is something not required by Pemex. I do not have the report with
me right now because I am in Tijuana, but I will upload it here as soon as I go back to my office in El Rosario, in about a week.
And finally, all Pemex gas station tanks, when installed underground, must have an inclination to the back. Pumps suction from the front, which
creates a volume of fuel in the back that cannot be extracted into the fuel lines, in spanish this is called "volumen de fondaje". In our case, our
tanks have around 1,800 lts of liquid in the back of each tank that simply cannot be pumped out. Which means we must have over 1,800 lts of water in
the tanks in order for that water to make it into the fuel lines. And the water sensor alarms get triggered around 200 lts.
Now, remember all those sensors I mentioned before, well, they are continuously gathering data and create real time reports. I just got the report for
our tanks (August 18th, 2014/12:00am) which I am uploading with this post.
As you can clearly see it indicates the ""volumen de fondaje" at 1,800 lts, the status of our sensors on the far right as "en linea" (on line) and
that we have zero liters of water in all tanks. This because about a month ago we drained all the water created by condensation in our tanks (we do
this kind of maintenance in our tanks every six months). From the diesel tank we extracted around 90 liters of water, this water was in the back, at
the bottom, where it cannot be pumped out by our fuel pumps.
As I said in the beginning, I do not know what happened to your vehicle or where you got contaminated diesel but it was not with us and I can prove
it. From my point of view, and forgive me if I am wrong, you only have assumptions and the title of your post is not only aggressive but it also harms
business like ours that are always making our best effort to provide a reliable and honest service.
I apologize for my candidness but it does not seem fair to me that you damage our integrity and image only in assumptions. I can prove to you,
anytime, that our fuel is always as clean as possible. Perhaps even cleaner than the one we receive.
Nevertheless, if you have any real proof that it was indeed our diesel the responsible for the damage to your truck I would be most interested to know
how it happened, what we are missing or what is failing in order to fix it as soon as possible and you have my word BajaCactus will cover all the
costs pertinent to the repairs of your truck and the time you lost. Otherwise I would politely ask you to rephrase the title of this thread you posted
to something less harmful.
Divemulege, I appreciate your business and preference in the past and I would be more than happy to meet you in your next trip to Baja and personally
show you all the sensors, reports and equipment I am mentioning here and if you or anyone ever need help or assistance I am always at your disposal
and happy to be of service at info*at*bajacactus.com (also if you ask for the shift manager at BajaCactus or "encargado de turno in Spanish", they
have a direct line to me).
Antonio Munoz
BajaCactus
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Here is the image that Antonio posted, for those who could not see it:
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vacaenbaja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 640
Registered: 4-4-2006
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I have run diesels in Baja exclusively since 1980. I NEVER had to drain water out of my separator/filter. All of my vehicles had sensors that went to
idiot lights that would light up on two occasions, On start up as a system check along with all the other system lights and when there is water
in the system. Did your light come on before your rig died? How often
do you check / drain or change your filter? El Rosario is a very busy diesel
stop. There should have been a line of truckers with crow bars heading toward Baja Catus if the fuel was that bad.
[Edited on 9-8-2014 by vacaenbaja]
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chuckie
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6082
Registered: 2-20-2012
Location: Kansas Prairies
Member Is Offline
Mood: Weary
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Yup.....
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mtnpop
Senior Nomad
Posts: 597
Registered: 9-8-2009
Location: Colorado/mulege
Member Is Offline
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Even tho most Pemex station have the diesel pumps a ways from the gas pumps some don't...
So i am always thinking of the folks pullin in and usin the green nozzle like in the states....
Green is diesel in the USofA and low test in Mexico...
Black is gas in the USofA and Diesel in Mexico
But of course no one would make that mistake would they???? All nomads are smarter that.. Then again all us old codgers could have a brain fart
moment....
Now this should give some something to rattle on about for awhile longer.
Common sense is a flower that doesn\'t grow in everyone\'s garden.....
A wise man once spoke nothing.....
Never kick a cow chip on a hot day!!
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htnfool
Nomad
Posts: 137
Registered: 3-27-2009
Location: Boise, Idaho/Mulege
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Mood: Fishy
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Hola amigo's,
I just fueled up with diesel in El Rosario 2 days ago, no issues and no water in my tank. Nothing against Divemulege. The pemex and it's employees
have always been very nice and honest. Can't wait to fuel up there on my way back down in October.
Let's keep this as positive and open minded a forum as possible, it's works out best for ALL of us...
[Edited on 8-24-2014 by htnfool]
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Timinator
Nomad
Posts: 244
Registered: 6-27-2014
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I wouldn't accept a "report" from Mexican gas station log or sensor readout as proof of the sky being blue. In a perfect world, maybe, in Baja,
never. This forum exists to help wade through the imperfections, irregularities, and flat out criminality that is Baja.
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chuckie
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6082
Registered: 2-20-2012
Location: Kansas Prairies
Member Is Offline
Mood: Weary
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Hogwash..you know that how?
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