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elbeau
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...and being even more speculative:
In Martineau's book, angled items tend to denote the "end of" something. For instance, an angled "conflict" symbol (two opposing arrowheads) meant
the "end of the conflict".
Now notice in the last photo that both of the figures that have the "dead" symbols above their shoulders also have angled quadropeds painted over
them. If a quadroped represents a journey like Martineau suggests, then perhaps an angled quadroped represents the end of a journey...in this case,
the end of the journey of these figures' lives?
Like I said, I'm just speculating here.
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Osprey
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Speculation is good. Where the Cochimi lived (walked down from the Great Basin about 600 years ago - spoke Yuman) there are two early man sites which
have been extensively studied and age dated. Early man used the shelters off and on for the last 9,000 years.
Now we can speculate: Who were they? Where did they come from? What happened to them?
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bajagrouper
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Mood: happy and retired
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Quote: Originally posted by David K  | | Quote: Originally posted by wilderone | "The Rocks Begin to Speak" by Lavan Martineau
After learning about this book here, I got this book from Alibris. OMG - it is fascinating. Not only learning about individual figures and their
meaning, but interpretation of the panels and learning the ancestral puebloans' stories as told by them. The drawings are so precise in their
meaning, and tell so much. Very enlightening to say the least. Thanks, Osprey, for mentioning the book here. |
Cindi, can you look at photos of Baja petro sites and provide meaning to them? The circles within circles mean water, yes?
'The squarecircle' and rockart circles (Montevideo)...
and I wonder what this says??? (Petroglyph Park, east of San Quintin)...
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Does anyone see the profile face of a man in the second picture?
Look at the right corner and look up about 2" of the picture, I see the bridge of a nose coming out of the rock,nostrils, a mouth and chin going back
into the rock...
I hear the whales song
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elbeau
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| Quote: Originally posted by bajagrouper | Does anyone see the profile face of a man in the second picture?
Look at the right corner and look up about 2" of the picture, I see the bridge of a nose coming out of the rock,nostrils, a mouth and chin going back
into the rock... |
Mystery Solved!
With a chin like that it can only be the fossilized head of the mad titan Thanos 
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wilderone
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The circles within circles mean holding in - of people, animals, water, etc. Symbols need to read in conjunction with the other markings as a whole,
as well as where they are placed (e.g., above, below, incorporating a crack or hole on the rock) to derive full meaning.
In the writings on the photo just above, there is a square that is divided by vertical and horizontal lines which is identical to a symbol in
Martineau's book (pg. 140) - a different location also in Mexico. That square usually denotes a house or village; I think the division might mean
rooms or families or similar. On the same rock above, in the foreground, largeish: there is an oval with various lines. elbeau - what do you think:
I think it might mean a person leaving a place specifically going right to do so, and to enter the place one would descend into it from above (the
little triangle near the left/top. On the same panel, there is the circle with a cross and dots - I think that means "here, and the same in all
directions" with hills radiating from it, as if "here" is in a valley surrounded by mountains. And near the top with the wavy lines and vertical
lines in between, the wavy lines is movement (like running water) - with a "ladder" in between, possibly a directive to "walk in the river bottom".
??? For an accurate message all symbols would need to be read altogether, and it would help if the reader knew more about the surrounding topography.
I've only spent a few hours on this so far, so my initial analyses are guesses.
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elbeau
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| Quote: Originally posted by wilderone | The circles within circles mean holding in - of people, animals, water, etc. Symbols need to read in conjunction with the other markings as a whole,
as well as where they are placed (e.g., above, below, incorporating a crack or hole on the rock) to derive full meaning.
In the writings on the photo just above, there is a square that is divided by vertical and horizontal lines which is identical to a symbol in
Martineau's book (pg. 140) - a different location also in Mexico. That square usually denotes a house or village; I think the division might mean
rooms or families or similar. On the same rock above, in the foreground, largeish: there is an oval with various lines. elbeau - what do you think:
I think it might mean a person leaving a place specifically going right to do so, and to enter the place one would descend into it from above (the
little triangle near the left/top. On the same panel, there is the circle with a cross and dots - I think that means "here, and the same in all
directions" with hills radiating from it, as if "here" is in a valley surrounded by mountains. And near the top with the wavy lines and vertical
lines in between, the wavy lines is movement (like running water) - with a "ladder" in between, possibly a directive to "walk in the river bottom".
??? For an accurate message all symbols would need to be read altogether, and it would help if the reader knew more about the surrounding topography.
I've only spent a few hours on this so far, so my initial analyses are guesses. |
From what I remember, closed circles within circles mean holding in, like you said, but open circles within circles mean empty.
The panel is very hard to interpret. There is simply too much that has faded away. I'm pretty sure that there used to be a lot more to this panel
because it seems to be related to another panel that DavidK posted in an earlier comment. In that other panel there are two spirals, which could
easily be mistaken to mean "uphill" or "downhill" depending on the direction of the spiral. The problem is that I distinctly remember seeing a much
older photo of that rock, and in the older photo the writings are much clearer and those two spirals were clearly the wild-looking eyes of a full
image of a horse's head. Unfortunately, the rest of the head is virtually invisible in the modern photo. Clearly a lot of erosion or damage has
occurred in the last few decades. The rock face in the panel above is so similar to the one that had the horse head that I think we're looking at
very weathered petroglyphs with a lot of missing information and with possible retouching by well-meaning people who don't understand that they are
defacing, not preserving rock writings when they try to "spruce it up".
The circle with the cross and dots looks familiar from the book, but I don't have the book in front of me at the moment and I can't remember the
meaning. I think you're interpretation sounds good for it.
I think you're correct about the squares representing a place or multiple places.
I also think you're right about the "oval with various lines". When you look closely it does appear to be a human figure with legs, a head, and very
long arms rather than just being a decorated oval. I'm not sure if the direction of this figure represents the direction of travel. It might just
mean departing and could have been associated with a different symbol (I would expect a quadroped) to indicate direction, although I cannot see such a
symbol. The length of the arms seems significant to me. One touches his foot while the other almost touches his knee, but not quite. Some of the
other lines around the arms might also indicate a movement of the arms to make a particular sign-language gesture. I'm not sure what to make of this
and I think there is probably some context around it in the rest of the panel. Instead of representing departing, it might be telling us about an
injury to his foot and possibly his knee as well.
I'm uncertain about the part with the wavy lines and connecting lines. It seems more complicated than a river or a direction. The lines might
indicate a number, but I really don't know.
You are absolutely correct that much more information is needed in order to try to interpret the meaning of the panel. Knowing more about its context
would be very helpful and finding historic imagery of it might also prove useful.
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elbeau
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Maybe I'm wrong about the panel being like the horse-head panel. Now that I look again they look like very different rock surfaces.
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elbeau
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By the way, after I posted the Valley of Fire panel interpretation, I looked in Google Earth and realized that the figure I label as #21 is a great
representation of the twists and turns of the Colorado River to the South of the Valley of Fire and the location where it says you can't cross seems
very close to the location of Hoover Dam today. That is indeed a deep canyon with high rock walls (#4 in my interpretation) that can't be easily
crossed (#1), and which travelers should be apprehensive to cross (#2) and which lies uphill (#6 & #18) and in the opposite direction of the
easier-looking journey in the opposite direction to Moapa Valley.
I haven't been able to ascertain the exact orientation of that panel yet, but I'm traveling to Vegas for my brother's wedding next month and I plan on
checking it out. I'll bet dollars to donuts that that panel is best viewed from the west.
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elbeau
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| Quote: Originally posted by elbeau |
I haven't been able to ascertain the exact orientation of that panel yet, but I'm traveling to Vegas for my brother's wedding next month and I plan on
checking it out. I'll bet dollars to donuts that that panel is best viewed from the west. |
Oops...I meant to say that it is best viewed "looking" west. Not "from the west". It should be best viewed from the east looking west.
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wilderone
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Elbeau - I've been studying your Valley of Fire panel. How about : the three quadrupeds in 28 they show a skinny one with a flat back (flatter
terrain), next a bowl shaped one (canyon), then a squared larger one (steep walls), each progressing in front of the other. As if "continue in this
direction, but you'll be descending into a canyon and even deeper - don't get too low into the canyon because (5 and 6) you won't be able to continue
and you'll have to backtrack to get out. Re: 31, 32 - "you're heading for, and look for, this place." 30 may represent moqui steps to a cave for
shelter en route. I think the whole panel is written in relation to the top and bottom of the topography. Also, at the top with the vulture head
(24), that could be a lookout point, its location in relation to the 24 arc.
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elbeau
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| Quote: Originally posted by wilderone | | Elbeau - I've been studying your Valley of Fire panel. How about : the three quadrupeds in 28 they show a skinny one with a flat back (flatter
terrain), next a bowl shaped one (canyon), then a squared larger one (steep walls), each progressing in front of the other. As if "continue in this
direction, but you'll be descending into a canyon and even deeper - don't get too low into the canyon because (5 and 6) you won't be able to continue
and you'll have to backtrack to get out. Re: 31, 32 - "you're heading for, and look for, this place." 30 may represent moqui steps to a cave for
shelter en route. I think the whole panel is written in relation to the top and bottom of the topography. Also, at the top with the vulture head
(24), that could be a lookout point, its location in relation to the 24 arc. |
I think your interpretation of 30, 31, and 32 are excellent!
I think the topography is best represented by the curved line in the upper-left. It strongly matches the canyons and rivers to the south:
The seven symbols attempting to cross that line seem to me to be correlated with the seven human figures represented by 1 & 2.
Now that I'm looking at the overlay, the "lookout point" might line up well to the Las Vegas wash, where there are extensive wetlands. It would be a
very habitable area.
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elbeau
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Also, the symbol above #8 appears to be the "more good" symbol with a flat line (land) symbol over it. I think it's saying that there is land that is
"more good" to the North (North being the direction that I think the quadropeds are facing).
[Edited on 3-27-2015 by elbeau]
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elbeau
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Let's have some fun. I've got a challenge for my fellow nomads.
I've applied Martineau's interpretations to another Valley of Fire panel. I think the story becomes pretty clear based on the interpretations, but
instead of telling you the story, I'd like to post the interpretations of the individual elements to see if the story you come up with based on those
interpretations is the same story that I come up with. I'll post my version in a day or so and we'll see how it compares.
The panel is called "Atlatl Rock" and is located at 36.422668, -114.549712 . You have to face northwest to see it. (These are important hints.
Compare the directions in the panel to the geography of the area)
Here is the panel (click for larger version):
Another detailed view of the panel can be found at this link.
Here is what I think each element represents based on Martineau's book:
1. This figure:
* Represents people.
* Represents a journey (because it's a quadruped).
* Represents directionality (direction quadruped is facing).
* Represents an unobstructed journey (two horns parallel but not touching).
* Represents a journey through a low place (bowl shape of quadruped's body), perhaps a valley.
* Is angled with flexed legs, perhaps sitting, squatting, or rearing. This positon might indicate an enemy.
2. This figure:
* Is an atlatl thrower.
* Has a round portion that appears to be the atlatl's finger loops. This clarifies the fact that the line is an atlatl thrower. While we
cannot rule out that the round portion has additional meaning(s), the fact that the round portion is necessary for clarity means that we should not
assume that it has additional meaning(s) without further evidence.
3. This figure:
* Is a fletched atlatl dart.
* Is not straight. The fletched end is angled to represent "distance".
4. This figure:
* Represents people.
* Represents a journey (because it's a quadruped).
* Represents directionality (direction quadruped is facing).
* Represents a journey through a low place, perhaps a valley (shape of body).
* Is small and has short limbs and horns, perhaps indicating a short journey.
* Appears to have two semi-open horns, but a closer examination shows that the upper one is scratched, not pecked, and appears to have less
varnish. It was probably done by some well-intentioned person who thought the original author did a poor job. In reality, adding the second horn
changes its meaning substantially. The original single closed horn represents an obstructed journey.
* Seems associated with #5.
5. This figure:
* Has arms.
* Has legs.
* Does not have a head.
* Is shaped very similarly to the "conflict" symbol (two triangular arrowheads facing each other).
* Has a line above it, probably an atlatl or other weapon, but since there is nothing about the line that distinctly represents a weapon, we
should not exclude the possibility that the line might represent "land" instead.
* Seems associated with #4 and #74. These three symbols together could mean that "people journeyed (#4) to the general area of this
pictograph panel (#74) for a conflict (#5)".
6. This figure:
* Represents a place (rectangle).
* Represents many (thickly-pecked, but not solid).
* Probably indicates many people at an inhabited place.
* Is connected by #7 to #8.
* Might be associated with #74.
* Might have an extremely-lightly pecked, angled rectangle to its lower-left that is in very close proximity to #74. This second rectangle
is so lightly pecked that it is hard to tell if it was intended to be part of the panel.
* If #6 represents the people in #8 and if the second rectangle is not accidental, its proximity to #74 might lend itself to the
interpretation: "the general area of this pictograph panel (#74) was very sparsely inhabited (sparcely-pecked rectangle) but was associated with a
place that was inhabited by many people (thickly-pecked rectangle)".
* If #6 represents the people who journeyed for conflict (#4 & #5), then an alternative interpretation might be that "a large number of
people (thickly-pecked rectangle) who journeyed for conflict (#4 & #5) came to the general area of this panel (#74) or to a more inhabited place
nearby".
7. This figures:
* Connect #6 to #8.
* Are slightly curved, with the middles higher than the ends.
* Probably represent two fingers pointing, but it seems unclear whether they are pointing to the right or to the left.
8. This figure:
* Represents a place (rectangle shape)
* Has a curved upper-right corner, indicating "turned aside".
* Might mean that "the people in the place represented by #8 fled (turned aside) when they saw (#7 pointing left) a large number of people
(#6) who had journeyed (#4) to a nearby place (#74 & #6) prepared for conflict (#5)".
9. This figure:
* Represents something empty, or something that became empty.
* Might be a description of people emptying #8.
* Is connected via #13 to #11.
* Might be being pointed to by #17.
10. This figure:
* Has straight arms raised to an upward angle.
* Is barefoot, indicating vulnerability.
* Has triangular-shaped feet and hands. This may be significant or it may be accidental. If it is significant then it probably represents
injuries or pain.
* Only has three fingers in its hands and three toes on its feet.
* Is connected via #12 to the place that "turned aside". #12 seems to connect to #10's hand, which may or may not be significant or
intentional.
* Probably represents the people who fled from #8.
* Is standing above one of the rivers represented in #29.
* Might be being threatened by #14.
* Is associated by proximity to #11.
11. This figure:
* Is associated by proximity to #10.
* Has straight arms raised to an upward angle like #10, but more outward.
* Has one leg that is missing, mangled, or flexed backwards. There may be some rock incorporation involved here, with the leg failing to
cross the crack in the rock, perhaps indicating that injury occurred while crossing the rivers (#68 & #29) or the hill (#28) associated with the
path (#68) and the rivers (#29).
* Is smaller than #10.
* Has extremities that could be triangular, but which are significantly less triangular than #10. This may or may not be significant.
* Only has three digits on each extremity.
* Is standing above both rivers represented in #29.
* Is in close proximity to #68.
* Is connected via #13 to #9.
* This figure may be saying that "many (three digits) people fled (#9). Their path (#68) involved the two rivers (#29)".
* If #10 represents the same people as #11 then it might be saying that "the inhabitants of a place (#8, a place), who were many (3 digits of
#10 & 11) fled (#8, turning aside). The path of their flight (#68) involved two rivers (#29). They were vulnerable (bare feet of #10 and #11).
They were distressed and/or injured (missing leg of #11 & triangular shapes of hands and feet of #10 & #11)."
* Another possibility is that #10 represents the attackers and #11 represents those that fled. This interpretation might be something like
"many people (#6) who were intent on conflict (#5) chased (#12) people out (#9) of an inhabited place (#8 turned aside from place) along a path (#68)
involving two rivers (#29) to a hill (#28). Both parties were numerous (plurality represented by 3 digits on hands and feet of #10 & #11. Also
light pecking of #12 & #13). The attackers were more numerous than those that fled (#10 larger than #11). Those that fled were injured (#11
missing leg) as they crossed the rivers (#11 rock incorporation).
12. This line:
* Connects the "turning aside" portion of #8 to one hand of #10.
* Crosses #16, which may or may not be significant. If #16 represents the path across the rivers then it is significant that #12 crosses it.
* Is lightly pecked, representing many.
13. This line:
* Connects #9 to the head of #11.
* Crosses #16, which may or may not be significant. If #16 represents the path across the rivers then it is significant that #13 crosses it.
* Is lightly pecked, representing many.
14. This figure:
* Is generally thick, representing something bad.
* Has a bulge which may represent atlatl finger loops or dart fletching.
* Seems associated with #15 via a filled-in circle (holding symbol?).
* Might be intentionally curved at the top, meaning a long distance.
* Might have an arrowhead (triangular) tip.
* Is pointed at an angle downward and to the left towards one of two pecked dots (eyes) and towards #11.
15. This figure:
* Has a diamond-shaped center, representing peace or the desire to end the conflict.
* Incorporates another diamond shape to the right. This diamond shape has a line pointing to it. If you keep following the path of that
line you will notice a lightly-pecked zig-zag (#72) connecting it to #9 and/or #17. It crosses #16, which may or may not be significant. If #16
represents the path across the rivers then it is significant that the line crosses it. This might indicate that people represented by figure #15 were
suing for peace as they fled across the river. Alternatively, it may mean that the people who attacked #9 eventually sued for peace in relation to
the bloodshed of #27.
* Incorporates a diamond, circle, or other shape to the left. This shape may represent "holding" or "grasping" #14.
* Has squiggly lines below touching it. This is probably one line representing a path, but it could be two lines representing weak legs.
The longer stretches across #27 and seems to very intentionally reach #22. It's possible that this line is a duplication (clarification) of the path
represented by #44, #45, and #46. More likely, this might represent the path of a bad journey (#22) that involved bloodshed (#27).
16. This figure:
* Looks like a ladder, but probably isn't one.
* The fact that the space between the sides isn't open probably represents that something isn't good. Alternatively, this may represent a
succession of places (rectangles) along a path.
* Is crossed by #12, #13, and the zig-zag line that connects #15 to #9 and/or #17.
* Seems closely associated with #8, #9, #15, #17, #27, and #22.
* Tends to get crossed by the party or parties that are represented crossing the river in other places (See #10, #11, #15, #20, #21, #68,
etc.).
* Probably represents the bad path across two rivers.
17. This figure:
* Is pentagon-shaped with three square sides and a point beneath. This shape might represent a place (rectangle) or might represent a canyon
(pointed bottom).
* Is associated with a river (#18).
* Seems very associated to #9.
* Might be associated with #16.
* Has a foot or hand print inside of it. Judging by the fact that no thumb is represented (first digit is not shorter), this seems like a
foot print, but judging by the length of the digits and the fact that the second digit seems to have a line pointed to or away from it, it seems like
a hand print. Hard to distinguish. If it's a foot print, then it is bare and represents "vulnerable". Overall, #17 might be saying that "people
fled (finger/toe pointing to #9) a vulnerable (bare foot) place (outline, possibly a canyon) by a river (#18)". A different interpretation might be
that "people in a place (#17 outline) down-river (#18 below the confluence of #59 & #60) were hostile towards (pointed finger/toe) a place where
people fled (#9)."
18. This figure:
* Represents a river.
* Results from the confluence of two other rivers upstream.
* Is associated with #17.
19. This figured:
* Is bare, meaning vulnerable.
* Is angled, meaning an ending.
* Interpretations might be that "the end of being vulnerable", or "something ended in vulnerability", or "something vulnerable came to an
end".
20. This figure:
* Is a path across two rivers (#59 & #60) that converge into one river (#18).
* Is associated with #23.
* Might be associated with #19. It points towards #19, but is not in proximity to #19.
* Is associated with #21, "crossing", meaning crossing the rivers.
* Is probably associated with #25.
21. This figure:
* Represents "crossing". The fact that the outline has a crossing symbol in it (as opposed to being empty) means the crossing place was good
or means the crossing was successful.
* This symbol clarifies that the crossing of the rivers in #20 was completed.
* Probably associated with #22, #23, #24, #59, and #60.
* This crossing was bad (association with #24).
* Might be associated with #25 and #26.
* Might represent the same crossing as lines #12, #13, #20, #68, and #72.
22. This figure:
* Seems to represent one of three parts of a journey (#22, #23, & #24)
* Represents people on a journey (quadruped).
* Represents directionality (direction quadruped is facing).
* Represents a bad journey (thickly drawn).
* Represents a bad journey (shape of body).
* Represents a bad journey (horns not open).
23. This figure:
* Seems to represent one of three parts of a journey (#22, #23, & #24)
* Represents people on a journey (quadruped).
* Represents directionality (direction quadruped is facing).
* Represents a bad journey (thickly drawn).
* Represents a fast journey (shape of body).
* Represents a journey that was not blocked (open horns).
* Seems associated with the path (#20).
* Has a curved line (#70) associated with its mouth (yelling? crying? threatening?).
24. This figure:
* Seems to represent one of three parts of a journey (#22, #23, & #24)
* Represents people on a journey (quadruped).
* Represents directionality (direction quadruped is facing).
* Represents a bad journey (thickly drawn).
* Represents a bad journey (shape of body).
* Represents a journey that was not blocked (open horns).
* Seems to represent the part of the journey most closely associated with the crossing (#21). The fact that the horns are open is a little
perplexing. It seems like the rivers would slow the journey down, but the path that crosses the rivers might not have been considered difficult, so
the journey wouldn't be represented by closed horns, meaning "blocked".
25. This figure:
* Has three dots. The fact that there are three could represent plurality or "many".
* The dots have lines going away from them, meaning "departing".
* The lines from the dots connect to a long horizontal line, probably representing a path.
* The path becomes bad (#26), or alternatively, the trail involves water (#26 speckled).
26. This figure:
* Is associated with the trail in #25.
* Seems to indicate rough (shape) or wet (speckled).
27. This figure:
* Represents blood flowing in conjunction with two rivers.
* Might be closely associated to a hill (#68) by the rivers.
* Is crossed by the path associated with #15.
* Interpretation might be that "there was bloodshed as people who were suing for peace (#15 diamond-shape) crossed (#72, wet path) two rivers
near a hill (#68).
28. This figure:
* Represents a hill.
* Is near two rivers (#29).
* Was led to by a path (#68).
* Was associated with bloodshed (#27).
29. This figure:
* Represents two rivers that merge into one river.
* Is associated with people (#10 and #11).
* Is associated with a hill (#28).
* Is associated with a path (#68).
* Leads to a forested area downstream (#33, #34, & #36).
* Is associated with a point of reference (#67, meaning "here").
30. This figure:
* Represents the end of something (angled).
* Represents something bad (oval shape with pointed ends).
* Represents something being surrounded or closed in upon (lines radiating inward)
* Seems to have something drawn inside of it, but it's hard to make sense of what it is.
* Seems associated with a bad journey (#22).
* Seems associated with losing power (#32, downward-turned horns).
* Seems associated with being wounded (#32, being carried away by quadruped).
* Seems associated with forested area downstream (#33).
* Might be associated with a journey that ended with fighting (#31, triangular body, angled indicating ending).
31. This figure:
* Represents people on a journey (quadruped).
* Represents directionality.
* Represents the end of the journey (angled position).
* Might be associated with fighting (triangular body).
32. This figure:
* Is a human figure riding a quadruped, representing wounded people being carried away by other people.
* The quadruped represents people.
* The quadruped represents a journey.
* The quadruped represents directionality.
* The wounded people have "lost power" (downturned horns), which is why they need to be carried away by others.
* Has something associated with the quadruped's mouth (arrowhead?).
33. This figure:
* Looks like a plant.
* Is clarified by #36, the symbol for wood.
* The fact that the number three is represented at the end of each branch might indicate plurality of "many".
* Is associated with #34 and #36.
* Seems associated with #32.
34. This figure:
* Looks like a plant.
* Is clarified by #36, the symbol for wood.
* The fact that the number three is represented at the end of each branch might indicate plurality or "many".
* Is associated with #33 and #36.
* Seems associated with #32.
* Is associated with or modified by something (#35).
35. This figure:
* Is difficult to discern.
* Might be a "close by" symbol.
* Might be a "closed" symbol.
* Doesn't look exactly like "close by" or "closed" so it probably indicates something else.
36. This figure:
* Is the symbol for wood.
* Clarifies that #34 and #35 represent plants or trees, probably a forest.
37. This figure:
* Is the symbol for "distant".
* Seems associated with #38 and #43.
38. This figure:
* Represents something empty or something becoming empty.
* Is associated with #31, #32, #37, #39, and #43.
39. This figure:
* Is an atlatl.
* Has finger loops.
* Has an atlatl dart in it.
* Represents something bad (thickly-drawn).
* Is associated with bad journeys (#22 & #23), seeing something (#69), strong vocalizations (#70), conflict (#43), the end of a journey
(#31), the emptying of something (#38), and vulnerable (#42) people not fleeing (#40, "not turning aside" symbols) or not being able to flee.
40. This figure:
* Is a quadruped viewed from above. The right angles at the top of the figure represent its horns, the right angles in the middle are its
forelegs, the right angles at its base are its hind legs, the extension of its body between its hind legs is its tail.
* Represents people.
* Represents a journey.
* Represents direction. By facing up it means forward from this panel as opposed to left, right, or backward.
* Is connected to an atlatl (#39).
* Has all horns and legs in the "not turning away" position.
* Is somewhat thickly drawn, representing bad. This might mean that not turning away was a bad choice, or alternatively it could mean that
they were forced to not turn away, or in other words, they were unable to flee.
* Probably means that "the people pressed forward in battle and were unwilling or unable to turn away".
41. This figure:
* Shows an association between #40 and #39.
42. This figure:
* Is a bare foot (no moccasin).
* Represents the vulnerability of #40.
43. This figure:
* Has arms.
* Has legs.
* Does not have a head.
* Is shaped very similarly to the "conflict" symbol (two triangular arrowheads facing each other).
* Has a line above it, probably an atlatl or other weapon, but since there is nothing about the line that distinctly represents a weapon, we
should not exclude the possibility that the line might represent "land" instead.
* Is very similar to #5.
* This figure probably does not represent the same people as #5 the direction of travel to the battle (#45) is opposite to the journey (#4)
of the people represented by #5.
* Might represent the people who fled (#8 & #9) making a counter-attack, but probably represents a third group of people who also engaged
in the conflict.
* Is associated with #37, #38, #39, #40, #41, and #42.
* Is connected to the "swift" symbol/path (#44).
44. This figure:
* Represents something swift.
* Is incorporated into a path.
* Connects #43 to the mouth of #45.
* Probably represents a swift path for a journey (#45).
#45. This figure:
* Represents people.
* Represents a journey (because it's a quadruped).
* Represents a bad journey (shape of body).
* Represents directionality.
* Has its legs close together as if standing still.
* Has short, closed horns representing bad.
* Has #44 coming out of its mouth.
* Has #46 coming out of its backside.
* Probably represents several aspects of a journey along the path represented by #44 and #46.
46. This figure:
* Represents a path.
* Is associated with a journey (#45).
* Connects to #47, #48, and #49.
47. This figure:
* Might represent land, but is more likely part #48, forming the "cut off" symbol.
* Is connected to #46.
* Is the place that the people represented in #43 embarked from.
* Probably means that the people represented in #43 were cut off from returning to this place. In other words, their journey was a one-way
journey.
* Seems associated with #50.
48. This figure:
* Helps #47 form the "cut off" symbol.
* Might represent the Grand Canyon or the lower entrance to the canyon. The location and shape of the path in relation to the location and
orientation of the pictograph panel seems to agree with this interpretation.
* Is further described by #49.
49. This figure:
* Is a bare foot (no moccasin).
* Represents the vulnerability of #48.
* Is upside down. This may simply be in relation to the path from the other direction, but it could also mean death or death of the foot.
If #43 refers to the same group as #11 then this might indicate the same leg or foot injury depicted in #11, however the association of #43 and #11
seems contradicted by the shape of the path, so these are probably describing different people.
50. This figure:
* Is difficult to identify.
51. This figure:
* Is difficult to identify.
* Might post-date the original panel.
52. This figure:
* Is difficult to identify.
* Might post-date the original panel.
53. This figure:
* Is difficult to identify.
* Might post-date the original panel.
54. This figure:
* Is difficult to identify.
* Might post-date the original panel.
55. This figure:
* Is difficult to identify.
* Might post-date the original panel.
56. This figure:
* Is difficult to identify.
* Might post-date the original panel.
57. This figure:
* Is difficult to identify.
* Might post-date the original panel.
58. This figure:
* Is difficult to identify.
* Might post-date the original panel.
59. This figure:
* Represents one of two rivers that converge into one.
* Is crossed by #20.
* Is associated with a completed crossing (#21).
60. This figure:
* Represents one of two rivers that converge into one.
* Is crossed by #20.
* Is associated with a completed crossing (#21).
61. This figure:
* Is difficult to identify.
62. This figure:
* Is difficult to identify.
63. This figure:
* Is a bare foot (no moccasin).
* Represents vulnerability.
64. This figure:
* Is difficult to identify.
65. This figure:
* Represents people.
* Represents a journey.
* Represents directionality (direction quadruped is facing).
* Represents a bad journey (thickly drawn).
* Represents a fast journey (shape of body).
* Represents a journey that was not blocked (open horns).
66. This figure:
* Is difficult to identify.
67. This figure:
* Is a point of reference.
* Means "here", or in other words, the location of this pictograph panel in relation to other elements.
68. This figure:
* Is a path between #11 and #28.
* Is in close proximity to the rivers (#29).
69. This figure:
* Represents looking or seeing.
70. This figure:
* Is coming out of the mouth of a quadruped (#23).
* Probably represents something spoken by people on a journey, or possibly the panting of people who are winded by the fast journey (#23).
* Might mean crying, yelling, threatening, but not normal talking.
71. This figure:
* Is difficult to identify.
* Might post-date the original panel.
72. This figure:
* Is zig-zaged.
* Crosses #16.
* Is lightly-pecked, which might represent water or might represent sparceness.
* Connects the line coming from right diamond of #15 to #9 and/or #17.
73. This figure:
* Is difficult to identify.
* Might post-date the original panel.
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elbeau
Nomad
Posts: 256
Registered: 3-2-2011
Location: Austin, TX
Member Is Offline
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Another post that mentioned the Montevideo rock art site prompted me to remember this discussion that we had several months ago. I want to give it a
bump and add a few more comments.
I was in Las Vegas in April of this year and while I was there I took time to visit the Valley of Fire, including both of the rock art panels that I
offered interpretations for in this thread.
The second panel (the one I numbered from 1 to 73 above) turned out to be just a part of a MUCH larger panel. Right now that panel is one of the most
popular ones to view in the Valley of Fire and a nice staircase and viewing platform have been built right up to the panel, but the positioning of the
platform makes it natural for people to see and photograph the part of the panel that you see in my post above, but when you're there you'll find that
there is a LOT more to it than just that part that people tend to photograph.
The viewing platform actually sits in the way of a lot of the panel and obstructs the view enough that I had to take a lot of photos from a lot of
angles to try to capture it all. I haven't taken time to piece those photos together yet, nor have I tried to interpret the panel as a whole so I'll
refrain from elaborating on it before I do more work.
I do have some more comments about the first Valley of Fire panel that I attempted to interpret in this thread. Here it is again just so it's clear
which panel I'm referring to:
And here is an updated interpretation of the panel based on my earlier comments combined with my own observations at the site as well as replies from
Wilderone in this thread (Wilderone: please correct me if I misinterpreted your comments):
"Traveler(s) can't, and should be apprehensive about crossing a place that is deep and has high walls which is a long distance to the left, uphill, on
a path above the traveler(s), which leads to a river of water (this is referring to trying to cross the Colorado River near where Hoover Dam is now
located). Traveler(s) can't go around this river. Traveler(s) can't, and should be apprehensive about going above to the trail above the river
because it comes to a point that can't be passed. The trail above the river on the hill becomes rough. Traveler(s) can't travel across the canyon by
the river. No crossing exists. A trail across the canyon would lead to nothing. This is a long way from the good journey in the other direction.
The river can be avoided by traveling a short journey on an open trail over rough terrain to the right. Continue in this direction, but you'll be
descending into a canyon and even deeper - don't get too low into the canyon because you won't be able to continue and you'll have to backtrack to get
out. You're heading for, and look for, a certain place (Moapa Valley which is a good settlement and a good way to get across the tributaries to the
Colorado River). The path leads to shelter along this route."
(For a point-by-point description of this interpretation, see the earlier discussion in this thread)
After visiting the site I still think that the interpretation we discussed earlier this year is largely correct. In addition, when I visited the site
I saw that the interpretation of the right-facing quadrupeds by Wilderone was fantastically accurate:
"Continue in this direction, but you'll be descending into a canyon and even deeper - don't get too low into the canyon because you won't be able to
continue and you'll have to backtrack to get out. "
What caught me by surprise though was that I was wrong when I said:
| Quote: Originally posted by elbeau | | ...I haven't been able to ascertain the exact orientation of that panel yet, but I'm traveling to Vegas for my brother's wedding next month and I plan
on checking it out. I'll bet dollars to donuts that that panel is best viewed best viewed from the east looking west. |
After visiting the panel I can say that it was clearly meant to be viewed from the west looking east. This caught me by complete surprise...but on
the other hand, my original interpretation of the symbols (before comparing it to the birds-eye-view in Google Earth) was still correct. When viewing
the panel from the west looking east, the path to the "bad crossing" is still "a long distance to the left" and the "easier journey" leading to Moapa
Valley is still "to the right" like I originally interpreted it.
The mistake I made happened after I interpreted what was actually written in the panel and compared it with Google Earth. Doing so validated one
aspect of my interpretation (it showed that the line shown as #21 was a highly-accurate trace of the path of the Colorado River), but it also led me
to think that the quadruped symbols could be interpreted as birds-eye directions rather than pathway directions.
In other words, if a person viewing the panel traveled "left" from there, they would not immediately be traveling in a compass line towards the
crossing. Instead, traveling "left" simply puts them on the correct trail, which starts by going northward from the panel following the course of the
wash where the panel is located, then it follows a slow, but general curve to the left (represented by #24 in the photo) to the "bad crossing" point.
The course of this path matches the rest of the panel very well and shows me that I need to be careful about not letting my own paradigms regarding
directions cloud my judgement about what is written in these panels.
Here's an intriguing lesson from this panel that may be more broadly applicable: Quadrupeds do NOT represent compass directions, and they don't even
point towards an anticipated destination. They ONLY represent the direction of travel along the path from the viewpoint of a person reading the
panel. In other words, they are not "map" indicators. They are telling someone to go right, left, forward, or backward --FROM THAT SPOT-- and do NOT
indicate the direction of any final destination in respect to the panel.
On the other hand, the curved line in #21 matches the course of the Colorado River far too accurately for me to think it's just a coincidence:
^Note in that image the big loop the river takes to the left and back. That can't be seen in Google Earth because Lake Mead now covers it, but I
looked into it and found a map showing that the Colorado River actually followed that exact path before Hoover Dam was built.
This means that although the quadrupeds don't represent map-like directions, the concept of a birds-eye map did exist in the writing system. It just
shouldn't be confused with the "path" directions indicated by quadrupeds.
In other words, if my interpretation of this panel can be applied more broadly (which I really don't know yet), then it means that when an author
wanted to indicate birds-eye directions, they traced lines (like #'s 21 and 24) but when they wanted to indicate "relative" directions like "left",
"right", "forward", or "backward" that specifically related to trails or journeys, they used quadrupeds.
I also want to point out another change that I made to the interpretation. In the interpretation I gave above in this reply today, I replaced the
phrase "a short, good journey to the right" with the phrase "a short journey on an open trail over rough terrain to the right". There are two reasons
I made this change. First, the quadrupeds representing the various parts of this journey are VERY thickly pecked, indicating rough terrain. Second,
when you visit the site you will see exactly why the author described the trail that way. The journey on the path to the right of the panel starts by
going is through some fantastically beautiful rock formations. The wash you travel along is sometimes easy to traverse, but sometimes it's hard.
Also, like I mentioned before, Wilderone was right when he noticed the warning the author made about going too far down the canyon on the journey to
the right. Doing so would take you deep into large, terribly winding rock formations and if you went that way you would end up needing to backtrack
just like Wilderone said in order to get to Moapa Valley. The short, rougher path is the right way to go rather than descending all the way down the
easy-to-travel sand bed of the wash into the rock formations.
To sum up, the panel warns of a bad journey to nowhere if you take the high-road to the left. It tells you that a good place can be found by going to
your right, but it warns you not to descend deep into the winding rock-formations as you go to the right. Instead, stick to the open trail that leads
over rough terrain in order to reach Moapa Valley.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
Member Is Offline
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Very important to keep your timeline clear and clean. There is very strong evidence that some of the Nevada/Arizona art you worked on here was carved
by Utes, Paiutes, Shivwits and others as late as when John Wesley Powell came floating down the river. See his character as a stick figure in the
"Rocks" book showing a cowboy hat and one arm. How's that for a time signal.
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elbeau
Nomad
Posts: 256
Registered: 3-2-2011
Location: Austin, TX
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by Osprey | | Very important to keep your timeline clear and clean. There is very strong evidence that some of the Nevada/Arizona art you worked on here was carved
by Utes, Paiutes, Shivwits and others as late as when John Wesley Powell came floating down the river. See his character as a stick figure in the
"Rocks" book showing a cowboy hat and one arm. How's that for a time signal. |
That's correct, and there is also art showing conquistadors on horseback in or near the Baja peninsula. There is definitely a lot to be worked out
when it comes to applying Martineau's work across time and space. There are many elements of his work that seem to be found quite broadly, but that
doesn't mean that the authors of the panels meant their work to be understood the same as each other.
That's mainly what I mean when I say that I'm not sure Martineau had everything right. He claims that his interpretations accurately describe panels
in some pretty far-off places from where he developed his theories.
I'm pretty comfortable that his work can give us insights into at least many of the rock art sites in the areas where he did most of his research,
which includes sites like the Valley of Fire. I'm not as sure that we can apply his strict interpretations in places as far off as the Baja
peninsula.
...on the other hand, there are some similarities between the symbols found in these far-off places. Perhaps they're just coincidences, but in any
case it's fun to study.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64849
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Keep it coming elbeau... and we are waiting for more sightings of lost missions on your PC so we out here can go look at the site up close!
The 2011 search for Mission Santa Isabel in Arroyo El Volcán, with some great Nomads, was one for the books, lost mission gold or not!
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elbeau
Nomad
Posts: 256
Registered: 3-2-2011
Location: Austin, TX
Member Is Offline
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I notice that you're being vague about what you may or may not have found at the site. We're still trying to figure out where you hid the treasures
of the lost mission.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64849
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18377
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: Originally posted by elbeau | Another post that mentioned the Montevideo rock art site prompted me to remember this discussion that we had several months ago. I want to give it a
bump and add a few more comments.
I was in Las Vegas in April of this year and while I was there I took time to visit the Valley of Fire, including both of the rock art panels that I
offered interpretations for in this thread.
The second panel (the one I numbered from 1 to 73 above) turned out to be just a part of a MUCH larger panel. Right now that panel is one of the most
popular ones to view in the Valley of Fire and a nice staircase and viewing platform have been built right up to the panel, but the positioning of the
platform makes it natural for people to see and photograph the part of the panel that you see in my post above, but when you're there you'll find that
there is a LOT more to it than just that part that people tend to photograph.
The viewing platform actually sits in the way of a lot of the panel and obstructs the view enough that I had to take a lot of photos from a lot of
angles to try to capture it all. I haven't taken time to piece those photos together yet, nor have I tried to interpret the panel as a whole so I'll
refrain from elaborating on it before I do more work.
I do have some more comments about the first Valley of Fire panel that I attempted to interpret in this thread. Here it is again just so it's clear
which panel I'm referring to:
And here is an updated interpretation of the panel based on my earlier comments combined with my own observations at the site as well as replies from
Wilderone in this thread (Wilderone: please correct me if I misinterpreted your comments):
"Traveler(s) can't, and should be apprehensive about crossing a place that is deep and has high walls which is a long distance to the left, uphill, on
a path above the traveler(s), which leads to a river of water (this is referring to trying to cross the Colorado River near where Hoover Dam is now
located). Traveler(s) can't go around this river. Traveler(s) can't, and should be apprehensive about going above to the trail above the river
because it comes to a point that can't be passed. The trail above the river on the hill becomes rough. Traveler(s) can't travel across the canyon by
the river. No crossing exists. A trail across the canyon would lead to nothing. This is a long way from the good journey in the other direction.
The river can be avoided by traveling a short journey on an open trail over rough terrain to the right. Continue in this direction, but you'll be
descending into a canyon and even deeper - don't get too low into the canyon because you won't be able to continue and you'll have to backtrack to get
out. You're heading for, and look for, a certain place (Moapa Valley which is a good settlement and a good way to get across the tributaries to the
Colorado River). The path leads to shelter along this route."
(For a point-by-point description of this interpretation, see the earlier discussion in this thread)
After visiting the site I still think that the interpretation we discussed earlier this year is largely correct. In addition, when I visited the site
I saw that the interpretation of the right-facing quadrupeds by Wilderone was fantastically accurate:
"Continue in this direction, but you'll be descending into a canyon and even deeper - don't get too low into the canyon because you won't be able to
continue and you'll have to backtrack to get out. "
What caught me by surprise though was that I was wrong when I said:
| Quote: Originally posted by elbeau | | ...I haven't been able to ascertain the exact orientation of that panel yet, but I'm traveling to Vegas for my brother's wedding next month and I plan
on checking it out. I'll bet dollars to donuts that that panel is best viewed best viewed from the east looking west. |
After visiting the panel I can say that it was clearly meant to be viewed from the west looking east. This caught me by complete surprise...but on
the other hand, my original interpretation of the symbols (before comparing it to the birds-eye-view in Google Earth) was still correct. When viewing
the panel from the west looking east, the path to the "bad crossing" is still "a long distance to the left" and the "easier journey" leading to Moapa
Valley is still "to the right" like I originally interpreted it.
The mistake I made happened after I interpreted what was actually written in the panel and compared it with Google Earth. Doing so validated one
aspect of my interpretation (it showed that the line shown as #21 was a highly-accurate trace of the path of the Colorado River), but it also led me
to think that the quadruped symbols could be interpreted as birds-eye directions rather than pathway directions.
In other words, if a person viewing the panel traveled "left" from there, they would not immediately be traveling in a compass line towards the
crossing. Instead, traveling "left" simply puts them on the correct trail, which starts by going northward from the panel following the course of the
wash where the panel is located, then it follows a slow, but general curve to the left (represented by #24 in the photo) to the "bad crossing" point.
The course of this path matches the rest of the panel very well and shows me that I need to be careful about not letting my own paradigms regarding
directions cloud my judgement about what is written in these panels.
Here's an intriguing lesson from this panel that may be more broadly applicable: Quadrupeds do NOT represent compass directions, and they don't even
point towards an anticipated destination. They ONLY represent the direction of travel along the path from the viewpoint of a person reading the
panel. In other words, they are not "map" indicators. They are telling someone to go right, left, forward, or backward --FROM THAT SPOT-- and do NOT
indicate the direction of any final destination in respect to the panel.
On the other hand, the curved line in #21 matches the course of the Colorado River far too accurately for me to think it's just a coincidence:
^Note in that image the big loop the river takes to the left and back. That can't be seen in Google Earth because Lake Mead now covers it, but I
looked into it and found a map showing that the Colorado River actually followed that exact path before Hoover Dam was built.
This means that although the quadrupeds don't represent map-like directions, the concept of a birds-eye map did exist in the writing system. It just
shouldn't be confused with the "path" directions indicated by quadrupeds.
In other words, if my interpretation of this panel can be applied more broadly (which I really don't know yet), then it means that when an author
wanted to indicate birds-eye directions, they traced lines (like #'s 21 and 24) but when they wanted to indicate "relative" directions like "left",
"right", "forward", or "backward" that specifically related to trails or journeys, they used quadrupeds.
I also want to point out another change that I made to the interpretation. In the interpretation I gave above in this reply today, I replaced the
phrase "a short, good journey to the right" with the phrase "a short journey on an open trail over rough terrain to the right". There are two reasons
I made this change. First, the quadrupeds representing the various parts of this journey are VERY thickly pecked, indicating rough terrain. Second,
when you visit the site you will see exactly why the author described the trail that way. The journey on the path to the right of the panel starts by
going is through some fantastically beautiful rock formations. The wash you travel along is sometimes easy to traverse, but sometimes it's hard.
Also, like I mentioned before, Wilderone was right when he noticed the warning the author made about going too far down the canyon on the journey to
the right. Doing so would take you deep into large, terribly winding rock formations and if you went that way you would end up needing to backtrack
just like Wilderone said in order to get to Moapa Valley. The short, rougher path is the right way to go rather than descending all the way down the
easy-to-travel sand bed of the wash into the rock formations.
To sum up, the panel warns of a bad journey to nowhere if you take the high-road to the left. It tells you that a good place can be found by going to
your right, but it warns you not to descend deep into the winding rock-formations as you go to the right. Instead, stick to the open trail that leads
over rough terrain in order to reach Moapa Valley. |
Perhaps you are trying to attach too much meaning to things that are just doodles, eh?
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