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David K
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Isn't there a device, on the fridge, or goes on your vehicle, that will shut the fridge off before the battery voltage drops too low to start the
vehicle?
Way way back, around 1980, I had a 'Koolatron' low energy fridge... uses satellite technology (they said). Wow, no more ice needed... runs all day off
the car battery and uses just a tiny amount of power... Yup, it drained my battery, and I was stuck on Shell Island, lol!
Well, my battery regained enough power to turn the motor after a day, so I wasn't stuck too long! The key is the car needs to be driven daily. I used
to go to Shell Island in the 70's and 80's and go nowhere for several days...
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Hook
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David, I know that the newer Norcold's have a low-voltage cut-out circuit. And it automatically comes back on when it senses adequate voltage. I dont
know what that voltage is.
All of these draw far less than a Koolatron. I had one back then. It didnt get THAT cold and it had far greater draw from that constantly running fan.
I have a 40 qt. older Norcold. It draws 2.1a at 12v. In my Lance, I now use it simply for ALL beverages. I simply turn it off before going to bed,
since there is no solar at night (I do have a 140 watt panel on the Lance). It rises about 10 degrees, overnight in ~70 degree temps, and gains it
back within an hour the next morning. But I have the luxury of having a 6cu ft. absorption fridge for everything else, including a small freezer that
allows me to keep up on ice production.
If you were going to try and use one for ALL your Baja needs, you would probably need one of AT LEAST 60 quarts. I think I would consider one of the
Whynter dual zone ones (fridge with separate freeze compartment), probably the 85 qt one.
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David K
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Quote: Originally posted by Hook  | David, I know that the newer Norcold's have a low-voltage cut-out circuit. And it automatically comes back on when it senses adequate voltage. I dont
know what that voltage is.
All of these draw far less than a Koolatron. I had one back then. It didnt get THAT cold and it had far greater draw from that constantly running fan.
I have a 40 qt. older Norcold. It draws 2.1a at 12v. In my Lance, I now use it simply for ALL beverages. I simply turn it off before going to bed,
since there is no solar at night (I do have a 140 watt panel on the Lance). It rises about 10 degrees, overnight in ~70 degree temps, and gains it
back within an hour the next morning. But I have the luxury of having a 6cu ft. absorption fridge for everything else, including a small freezer that
allows me to keep up on ice production.
If you were going to try and use one for ALL your Baja needs, you would probably need one of AT LEAST 60 quarts. I think I would consider one of the
Whynter dual zone ones (fridge with separate freeze compartment), probably the 85 qt one. |
Sounds good Hook... The Koolatron was over 100 dollars (a lot back 40 years ago for a camping product), but seemed like a great idea. I am glad it has
been improved upon. 4Baja's Fridge Freeze that also ran on propane was great for the time (2001), but wondering why none of these models know have
propane, or is the solar panel charger the way all are going to have power all day?
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Alm
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| Quote: Originally posted by David K | | Isn't there a device, on the fridge, or goes on your vehicle, that will shut the fridge off before the battery voltage drops too low to start the
vehicle? |
DC fridges have Low Voltage Disconnect around 10.6V, by then it's too late, the battery is practically 100% discharged. Do this to starter battery 3-4
times and it's dead. Even deep cycle batteries like those in golf carts won't take this too well. Running DC fridge without solar is possible, but
not very smart 
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monoloco
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| Quote: Originally posted by David K | Isn't there a device, on the fridge, or goes on your vehicle, that will shut the fridge off before the battery voltage drops too low to start the
vehicle?
Way way back, around 1980, I had a 'Koolatron' low energy fridge... uses satellite technology (they said). Wow, no more ice needed... runs all day off
the car battery and uses just a tiny amount of power... Yup, it drained my battery, and I was stuck on Shell Island, lol!
Well, my battery regained enough power to turn the motor after a day, so I wasn't stuck too long! The key is the car needs to be driven daily. I used
to go to Shell Island in the 70's and 80's and go nowhere for several days... |
When the Engel is turned all
the way down to the coldest setting it runs constantly and will stay at about 0º, if you are using it as a fridge, it will keep your food cold and use
very little power.
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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Alm
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Yep. They all work on the same principle, compressor will run non-stop on High (the coldest), and less than 50% on Low (i.e. warmer) - if it's not too
hot outside. When it's too hot, it will cycle 50%-70% of time even on Low.
Koolatrons are different, they are thermoelectric, no compressor there, and are VERY power-hungry.
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Hook
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| Quote: Originally posted by Alm | | Quote: Originally posted by David K | | Isn't there a device, on the fridge, or goes on your vehicle, that will shut the fridge off before the battery voltage drops too low to start the
vehicle? |
DC fridges have Low Voltage Disconnect around 10.6V, by then it's too late, the battery is practically 100% discharged. Do this to starter battery 3-4
times and it's dead. Even deep cycle batteries like those in golf carts won't take this too well. Running DC fridge without solar is possible, but
not very smart |
Actually, the Norcolds are selectable for the cut-off circuit. One setting disconnects at 11.6 which is usually well above a 50% discharge.
http://www.thetford.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/NRF30-Ins...
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Alm
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Selectable LVD is nice. Though 11.6V under load means that battery is about 80% discharged.
Voltage under load:
Open-circuit voltages are higher yet, so if it drops to 11.6 with no load, it's beyond dead.
LVD feature in DC devices (and in some devices - also HVD feature, when it disconnects because solar charger or alternator pumps it up to +15V) are
meant to protect the device, not the battery.
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Hook
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Well, I've brought my Lifeline AGM down that low, overnight, several times and it is still going strong after four years. Usually, it's after a cool
night where the internal propane heater in the Lance has brought it down that low.
I simply dont run my Norcold at night anymore. It makes up the loss so fast and I am generally not drinking a beer till, oh, 9am. 
I keep my Norcold right at about 33-35F during the day and it rarely comes above 45 by the next morning.
One other feature I think is important on any of these is a true analog on/off switch that will keep it in the on position for times when power is
lost and returns while you are not there. Some units with "digital" switches (one position on/off) dont come back on, after a power outage.
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Hook
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Ultimately, David, I am quite surprised you havent popped for a shell for your Tacoma, with all the Baja camping you do. Just better protection for
your stuff and it would make a great location for a solar panel. I assume it is because it would limit your ability to use the truck's bed for your
irrigation business.
You could actually put a strapped-down marine battery box in the bed, incorporate a small solar system into your truck's charging system and put an
AGM back there with an isolator that allows the engine to charge it but prevents a discharge of your starting battery. Of course, we are still talking
about probably around 1200.00 including the refer, solar panel, charge controller, grp 27 AGM battery, isolator, wiring.
Of course, with all that capability, you'd probably want an inverter to occasionally run something else. That would be more.
Then, there's the cost of the shell.............suddenly, this would all buy a lot of ice. 
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David K
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| Quote: Originally posted by Hook | Ultimately, David, I am quite surprised you havent popped for a shell for your Tacoma, with all the Baja camping you do. Just better protection for
your stuff and it would make a great location for a solar panel. I assume it is because it would limit your ability to use the truck's bed for your
irrigation business.
You could actually put a strapped-down marine battery box in the bed, incorporate a small solar system into your truck's charging system and put an
AGM back there with an isolator that allows the engine to charge it but prevents a discharge of your starting battery. Of course, we are still talking
about probably around 1200.00 including the refer, solar panel, charge controller, grp 27 AGM battery, isolator, wiring.
Of course, with all that capability, you'd probably want an inverter to occasionally run something else. That would be more.
Then, there's the cost of the shell.............suddenly, this would all buy a lot of ice. |
Right you are!
I like an open bed that I can reach over and grab my tools or parts from, when working. The truck is my only vehicle so it is double duty, and (sadly)
camping trips are only 5% of its use, so I have my parts in boxes and my camping gear in boxes... I just pull out the one set and put in the other.
Also, we rarely sleep in the truck bed... like twice, I think. That Coleman Instant Tent is amazing fast and easy to put up, and it's huge for us. I
put it up one night on the Pole Line Road run because of the wind, so I could cook my dinner and sleep in it... I easily put it up by myself, in the
wind.
The other logic is the cost for a Fridge/Freeze and the electronics vs. ice for the (now) 2-4 camping trips per year. I appreciate the suggestions and
information.
I ask a lot of these questions for the many who may be reading Nomad who like find the details here, but don't post, (not for personal glory as
someone stated earlier)... lol!
Have a great summer Hook!
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Bugman
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I have had an Engel for many years now and am still happy with it. After 10 years the power module went but the customer service at Engel was great.
The guy talked me through the replacement process and even followed up with me the next day to make sure all was working well. They even sent it to
me via faster mail to make sure I got it in time to get it working before my trip. I use it mainly as a fridge and it has never run my battery down
but I have been careful not to run it off my car battery for more than 4-6 hours at a time. From the AC outlet it works great as a backup fridge or
freezer.
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Alm
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| Quote: Originally posted by Hook | | Well, I've brought my Lifeline AGM down that low, overnight, several times and it is still going strong after four years. |
This isn't fair  ... We're not talking AGM here, not to mention that Lifeline is
the best AGM. Regular garden variety starter battery isn't that sturdy. Deep cycle are studier, but lifespan and depth of discharge are in inverse
relation, the deeper you discharge it the shorter it lasts.
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Hook
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An AGM is not possible as a starter battery? I have one in my ATV. Are they not suitable for a car starter?
A Lifeline would probably be a waste, but I have a Werker that I bought from Batteries Plus that is doing quite well after four years. It's Chinese, I
believe. WAY cheaper than the Lifeline. Half the price.
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Alm
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Hook - typical deep cycle AGM will start your car, but won't last as long as a cheap starter battery. They are designed to be deeply discharged, but
not to handle high current.
But there also exist "starter AGM" - Exide comes to mind.
And there are also "hybrid" AGM that have features of both starter and deep cycle battery. They are often called "marine", and there is no "deep
cycle" on the label. Those are neither here nor there - not a good deep cycle for RV, and more expensive than plain old starter battery. You probably
have one of those.
[Edited on 7-15-2015 by Alm]
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cbuzzetti
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Another satisfied Edgestar user here. Had mine for over 5 years and is currently in use as a back up freezer at home. Weighs about 50 lbs empty.
i have had the 12v power cord fail but found another one at Radio Shack.
BajaBuzz
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Santiago
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Update: got the Whytner 85Q from Home Depot and have it running on 120 volts sitting in the garage as a freezer around zero degrees. Plugged it into
a brand new 105Ah 12 volt AGM and it shut down from too low voltage in about a day and a half.
Power consumption chart says at zero degrees it should use 56 Ah. The owner's manual says it will shut down when the voltage drops below 10.4. This
sounds about right? I spaced-it-out and did not measure the voltage before recharging the battery.
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landyacht318
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12v compressor fridges can be quite efficient.
A huge issue is the Ciggy plug, and the vehicles ciggy plug/12v power port receptacle feeding it.
The receptacles are often wired too thin with too many connectors causing too much voltage drop, with the result being that the fridge refuses to
start the compressor, even though the fan might turn on with Fridges that employ the Danfoss/Secop compressors. So it makes noise, but does not
circulate refrigerant when the voltage drop is extreme and the engine not running and or battery anything but 90%+ charged.
Cutting off the power cord and using Anderson powerpole connectors in the 30 amp flavor yield a much better, more reliable, less wasteful electrical
connection.
Danfoss recommends using much thicker wire for minimal voltage drop than one would think is necessary for something that only draws 6.5 amps at the
absolute maximum. 2.2 to 4.5 amps is more likely the compressor draw of a portable fridge unit in the 2 cubic foot size range but them can go as
high as 6.5amps if they have a turbo cool mode.
They could not really market these things unless they came with the ubiquitous Ciggy plug, but the Ciggy plug/receptacle is just ubiquitous junk.
One wastes their battery power heating the internals of receptacle and plug. Spring steel is Not a good conductor. It heats up, loses its spring,
which causes a weaker electrical connection, more heating, on and on until the plastic housing melts, and perhaps you remain unaware and find your
perishables at 70F and stinky.
http://www.ra.danfoss.com/TechnicalInfo/Literature/Manuals/0...
Anybody who uses an inverter, to power the AC/DC fridge, on AC, is simply wasting at least 15% of their battery power. Convert 12vDC DC to 120Vac at
85% efficiency just to have the fridge compressor controller reconvert it? Insanity!
My friend's 50 quart ARB with extra insulative cover used 14 to 17 AH in 24 hours at 75F average ambient temps and about a Dozen beer extractions. It
varied power consumption between 45 watts and 60 watts, and seemed to run for about 12 to 15 minutes on, then off for about an hour before the
compressor would restart. if it was unplugged for a while it would start at 60 watts. If it was just maintaining cold, 45 watts.
The ARB 12v power cord was about 5 feet of 16awg wire, Much much thinner than Danfoss/Secop recommends. There was nearly 2 volts of drop on this
power cord. There is high medium and low levels of battery protection. Lowest stops the fridge at 10.1 volts, but the ARB would stop functioning at
12.1 volts, and the receptacle I had it plugged into is wired with a short length of 10 awg wire to the fuse block
Besides the 16awg lossy 12v power cord, the ARB design and construction and performance was impressive, in my opinion.
I power Vitrifrigo front loading c51IS 51 liter fridge with the danfoss/secop BD35f compressor. 24/7/344. It is wired with a short length of 10awg,
and only suffers 0.12 volts drop between battery and fridge. It is extra insulated and the cooling unit hyper ventilated and used less battery power
than the ARB in the same conditions.
Draws about 32 watts when the compressor runs, and the last 74 hours here in San Diego it has drawn 42.74 Amp hours, and today was 85 ambients.
How do I know this? I have electrical meters:
I removed the resistor on the Vitrifrigo's thermostat circuit to reduce compressor rpm from 2500 to 2000, and amp draw from about 3 down to 2.2 when
the compressor runs. Amp draw of the compressor starts higher and tapers downward when the it first cycles on with Danfoss/Secop compressors. higher
compressor speeds lead to shorter duty cycles when the fridge cycles on and quicker cool downs when it does, but Mine does not require this as it is
always on, always sub 35F, and with 200 watts of Solar, never in any danger of overdepleting the battery
My previous front loading fridge was a Norcold DE 0040( lasted 5 years), and it was not as efficient as the Vitrifrigo. The compressor was also much
much louder and would vibrate my whole Van. Very annoying. I heard Norcold and Engel recently switched from the noisy Sawafuji swing compressor to the
Danfoss/Secop, but cannot confirm.
Waeco and Dometic might currently be one and the same in the North American market. Waeco apparently has developed their own compressor to rival the
BD35f, which in my opinion is the benchmark DC fridge compressor. I hear the New Waeco compressor is very quiet.
Check out Dometic chest fridge/ freezers on Amazon, they have some really small compact units that likely just sip electricity. The BD35F compressor
can power a fridge upto 8 cubic foot at 3500 rpm IIRC, so it is a cakewake for it to power a 2 cubic foot fridge at 2000 rpm. But the newest Dometics
use the Waeco Compressor, I believe. Not 100% sure on this, do not quote me.
Waeco's new compressor appears visually, very similar to the Danfoss BD35f, and the compressor speed is also variable too, I do not have all the
details.
Do make sure to keep the cooling unit vents unobstructed. Frideges to not froce things cold, they remove the heat from items within the box. That
heat has to go somewhere, so keep those vents free and clear. When locked in a vehicle baking in the sun, it will consume considerably more battery
power. Figure 50% more consumed at 90F than at 75F ambient temps inside the vehicle. Just Imagine 115F!
Use reflectix sun shades on the windows on the sunny sides of the vehicle can greatly reduce battery consumption, and extend compressor life too.
One is not saving any battery power by turning it off overnight. To recool it down to sub 40F will use more battery power than had it been maintained
sub 40F. but if the vehicle is started in the morning and driven a good amount of time it takes to recool back down sub40F, no real issue. But 40F
is the cutoff point, some say 39F. A few hours at 45F, bacteria grows. Not worth the risk of getting sick. Keep the fridge on overnight and carry
a fully charged jumper pack instead.
People without secondary/Auxiliary battery systems should carry a portable jumper pack and keep it fully charged. Do not try and use it to power the
fridge, keep it for engine assist only. Hide it from kids and their USB charged devices .
Another Brand of fridge Exists I have not noticed being mentioned in this thread, and it uses the respected Danfoss/SecopBD35f compressor, and is
among the least expensive options:
http://truckfridge.com/tf51.html
I bought my Vitrifrigo c51iS through this guy 3 october's Ago. Better price with free shipping!:
http://www.westyventures.com/parts.html
If anybody in the San diego area wants help in setting up a secondary battery system or add solar for their vehicle so they never have to worry about
being able to start the engine, PM me. I can also safely bypass the problem prone Ciggy plugs and stock receptacles with Anderson powerpoles, but I
cannot halfass things.
I live on 12vDC battery power. I just made a Killer portable powerpack for a friend with a 125AH lifeline battery as the heart, a 45 amp plug in
charger, 400 watt pure sine inverter, 2 of the despised 12v receptacles and a dual USB output. All top quality components thickly wired for minimal
voltage drop. I ran 2awg cable to his 160 amp alternator over a 500 amp Winch connector. Portable Solar can be easily added, as well as jumper
cables for the ultimate jumpstarter pack.
This battery can power his 50 quart ARB for about 5 days before the battery becomes dangerously low, but that figure is dependent on lots of
variables. His alternator was able to deliver 86 amps into the depleted lifeline, At idle speed after it heated up, over 100 amps before it heated
up. The plug in charger I used Meets Lifeline charging parameters and can indeed fully charge the battery.
I also added Amp hour and watt hour counters to show when the battery was getting dangerously low. An Ammeter voltmeter combo would display
alternator or any charging source input into battery, upto 100 amps.
AGM batteries make great starting batteries due to their low internal resistance. Even Lifelines which are more designed for deep cycle duty with the
thickest positive plates in the AGM world, have more than enough CCA to crank an Engine. A Northstar or Odyssey battery has Huge CCA figures and can
be deep cycled too, though Lifeline AGM will outperform them in a pure deep cycle application.. All three of these brand batteries require large
recharge currents when deeply cycled. Trickle chargers/ low charge currents will simply tickle them to death.
Do not waste your money on Spiral cell/ Six pack AGM batteries. 25% less overall capacity for the same price. Only advantage to 6 pack design is
physical case strength or extreme vibration stress environments like a jet ski. All AGM batteries are more vibration resistant than flooded/wet
batteries.
Lifeline AGM is truly impressive in construction design and performance.
AGM batteries require they be returned to full charge more often than true flooded deep cycle batteries. The higher Dollar AGM's like Northstar,
Odyssey and Lifeline require huge recharge currents when deeply cycled. Lifeline wants 20 amps per 100AH of capacity. Odyssey wants 40 amps per
100AH of capacity. Northstar somewhere in between.
I own a group27 northstar AGM and cycle it deeply to 50% state of charge, or even less, 5 times a week. Rule of thumb is not to go below 50%. I
find it's ability to crank my 318 V8 to life nearly instantly, very impressive. i find the voltage it holds under discharge to be impressive. Its
ability to start my engine even when it was discharged down to 20% state of charge, was impressive, it ability to suck 100 amps from my alternator at
2100 rpm, impressive. So far So good with my Northstar AGM. It has about 150 Deep cycles over 22 months of use, 75 of those in the last 3 months.
Not fully 100% charging AGM's every 5 to 7 deep cycles will cause capacity to walk down. Not fully charging them for 14 deepcycles in a row will cause
permanent capacity loss to some degree. After 14 deep cycles without a full high amp recharge they are basically punch drunk until they are high amp
recharged, then held a the manufacturer recommended absorption voltage 14.4( LL/NS) to 14.7v for Odyssey, until amps required to maintain them at that
pressure tapers to 0.5% of capacity.. 0.5 amps for a 100AH battery. This will take about 4 hours once 14.7v is reached, no matter how powerful the
charging source, and yes, even from your chromed alternator, or from a Toyota Tacoma that can otherwise walk on water.
So fully charging a deeply cycled battery via alternator takes about 4 hours from the time it reaches absorption voltage, which might take an hour or
more. This also assumes your vehicle allows voltage to rise to 14.4 or 14.7v and holds it there. Most do not. It also assumes the alternator
charging circuit is thick enough to not heat excessively passing large currents. By and large Automakers do not ever expect the alternator to be used
to consistently recharge depleted deep cycle batteries, the copper circuit is not thick enough in most instances. One can run a fatter red(+) cable
from alternator(+) In parallel with the OEM circuit to greatly increase charging ability. A fatter battery to engine ground path is recommended too.
The harder the alternator has to work, the shorter its lifespan. Everything is a compromise.
AGM batteries are $$$. People tend to think this makes them resistant to abuse, but they are actually less tolerant of improper charging techniques
than Flooded deep cycle batteries. They are like the maintenance intensive, expensive german sports car. Sure they perform great, when taken care
of, but ignore their requirements and they soon become an expensive paperweight with an indignant ignorant owner.
And '12v Flooded deep cycle battery' is almost an Oxymarooon. Trojan makes a few 12v Scrubber batteries a few inches taller than their regular group
24/27/31 batteries that have twice the expected cycle life, but all 12v marine/dual purpose batteries have construction much closer to a starting
battery than they do to a true deep cycle battery.
YOur Wally world group 29 "deep cycle" battery is a Joke, compared to a Trojan SCS225(group31) and the SCS 225 is a joke compared to a T-1275 or a
J150 or J185, or the venerated 6v GC-2, the T-105.
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/deep_cycle_battery
So as far as 12v compressor fridges go, I am partial to the Danfoss/ Secop compressors. I'd avoid Sawafuji compressors if noise and vibration will be
a factor. Bypass that thin wired ciggy plug cord and allow it the voltage it desires through some shorter thicker copper fused as close to the
battery as possible, at 15 amps.
Keep the cooling unit vents unobstructed, and do not try and run a fridge inside your convection oven of a vehicle while it bakes in the sun with the
windows closed. Do not expect a 20 minute drive to fully charge your battery, and have a plug in charging source for when you do have grid power to
top off the battery, as it needs hours to get from 80% to 100% charged no matter the charging source. The worst constructed lead acid battery on the
planet kept fully charged, will outlast the best constructed battery chronically undercharged. Reaching a true 100% state of charge is the key to
battery longevity. Holding absorption voltage for long enough is the key to a true 100% recharge. Few automatic charging sources ever do. That
blinking green light is a Liar, mocking you, and you do not even know it.
If plugging in an automatic charging source soon after driving, turn the lights on and drop the battery voltage below 12.7v to remove surface voltage
before starting the automatic charger, otherwise it will only seek to hold float voltage, and a full recharge will take 12 times longer, if it ever
happens at all at 13.2v. Get it to ~14.4, hold it there for around 4 hours, anything less makes you a battery murderer.
Do not Fall into the trickle charger trap. 2 amps is not going to fully charge a depleted battery, and is not going to return a sulfated battery to
maximum remaining potential capacity. Get at least a 15 amp charger. Your battery is not going to mind. It can easily suck 5x that amount from
your alternator when depleted to 50% and the rpms are there.
When your starting battery Fails, A marine battery is a better option, but needs to be physically larger to have the same CCA as the starting battery.
AGM batteries are better dual purpose batteries, but some are intended as starting batteries only. Avoid these red tops in deep cycle service and
avoid six pack style batteries completely in a real deep cycling situation Their lesser capacity means they are discharged more each cycle. Do not
fall for their marketing mumbo jumbo. Optima cashed in and sold out long ago and are riding their former undeserved reputation.
Agms are petulant when their charging parameters are not met, and AGM parameters vary widely brand to brand, despite the broad brush they are often
painted with. Lesser $ AGMS like the Deka Intimidator series ( oft rebranded) or the Asian AGMs like Universal battery, have 30% maximum charge
rates. 30 amps per 100Ah of capacity. An alternator can easily exceed this when the battery is depleted, so these are not a great battery for deep
cycle service in an automobile unless the charging circuit is built to be a limiting factor.
True(ish) Deep cycle batteries are not damaged by being used as starting batteries contrary to popular belief, they just need to be even larger than
marine batteries to have the same CCA.
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Santiago
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[img] [/img]
So here is/was my connection to the battery: the cord on the right came with the unit and is 5' long, and the cord on the left that connects to the
battery is 4' long. I think what you are suggesting is that I take the cord that came with the unit, make it as short as possible and have it connect
directly to the battery with round connectors that are bolted to the terminals and not use the clips. Correct?
The cord that came with the unit does not have the size of the wiring printed on it but my guess is it's about a 12?
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bkbend
Senior Nomad
Posts: 693
Registered: 11-27-2003
Location: central OR or central baja
Member Is Offline
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Thanks, Landyacht, for the battery and compressor lesson and links!
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