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Alm
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 5-10-2011
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Quote: Originally posted by ncampion  |
Actually quality panels can be bought in US for below $1.00/watt, however that is not the cost of the system. My battery alone cost $13,000, plus
inverters, charge controllers, AC and DC electrical panels with disconnects and breakers all add up. I'm not talking about a "camper" system that can
run a few light bulbs, if you want to be comfortable in a decent sized home you need a competent electrical system. |
Solar system can't be competent. It a user that can - or can't  ... Or -
installer.
It doesn't matter - camper or home. Total cost of solar system parts is $2 per watt. This doesn't include battery bank, this is a separate issue. You
need a battery bank no matter whether you are on solar or on generator. The size of battery bank depends on both solar system size and usage pattern,
i.e. how much energy you are going to use daily. The bigger the bank - the cheaper (usually) per AH of capacity, 'cause you can have bigger L16
rather than small T105 etc.
Having a bank too big is about same bad as having it too small, because you not only have a higher initial cost and replacement cost, but also a
higher self-discharge current, thus losing more energy daily, and (possibly) shorter battery life 'cause solar wouldn't be able to charge it fully
every time, and 90% full is not "good enough". I've seen people with 4*L16 and mere 400W solar on the roof, didn't ask why. They think (or somebody
told them) that this is the bank they need, so ... let them be.
[Edited on 12-4-2015 by Alm]
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ncampion
Super Nomad
Posts: 1238
Registered: 4-15-2006
Location: Loreto
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Mood: Retired and Loving it
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A HUP Solar One battery. A single battery, 48 volts, 1150 ah. The only battery for solar applications that will actually do the job and last 10
years. No parallel connections, designed for solar. Pricey but worth it.
http://hupsolarone.com/
Living Large in Loreto. Off-grid and happy.
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ncampion
Super Nomad
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| Quote: Originally posted by Alm | | Quote: Originally posted by ncampion |
Actually quality panels can be bought in US for below $1.00/watt, however that is not the cost of the system. My battery alone cost $13,000, plus
inverters, charge controllers, AC and DC electrical panels with disconnects and breakers all add up. I'm not talking about a "camper" system that can
run a few light bulbs, if you want to be comfortable in a decent sized home you need a competent electrical system. |
Solar system can't be competent. It a user that can - or can't ... Or -
installer.
It doesn't matter - camper or home. Total cost of solar system parts is $2 per watt. This doesn't include battery bank, this is a separate issue. You
need a battery bank no matter whether you are on solar or on generator. The size of battery bank depends on both solar system size and usage pattern,
i.e. how much energy you are going to use daily. The bigger the bank - the cheaper (usually) per AH of capacity, 'cause you can have bigger L16
rather than small T105 etc.
Having a bank too big is about same bad as having it too small, because you not only have a higher initial cost and replacement cost, but also a
higher self-discharge current, thus losing more energy daily, and (possibly) shorter battery life 'cause solar wouldn't be able to charge it fully
every time, and 90% full is not "good enough". I've seen people with 4*L16 and mere 400W solar on the roof, didn't ask why. They think (or somebody
told them) that this is the bank they need, so ... let them be.
[Edited on 12-4-2015 by Alm] |
A properly designed solar power system must be balance, starting with projected power consumption. BTW whatever you figure you will use, multiply it
by 1.5. I have lived off grid for 6 years with a system I designed and installed. I have all the power I need including AC in the summer time,
without generator running. You do have to be mindful of power usage but otherwise a properly sized and balanced system can be transparent.
BTW, L 16s and T 105s are for RVs not homes.
[Edited on 12-4-2015 by ncampion]
Living Large in Loreto. Off-grid and happy.
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captkw
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ncampion
thanks for the link...So, from what I read on their site its just a large flooded batt with old tech..for 13K you can get a LOT of 8D's and Nothing
(so far) will beat fresh batterys..But I am more than open to learning more about these batts and why you think they are the way to go.....The first
thing we do in designing a system is a "energy audit" and charge cap. and storage cap. RMS for a home/yacht.....So are u happy as a clam with this
battery and what have you found to be the benefits ?? thanks for sharing this info and have a GREAT Day!!
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Alm
Ultra Nomad
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| Quote: Originally posted by captkw | | thanks for the link...So, from what I read on their site its just a large flooded batt with old tech..for 13K you can get a LOT of 8D's and Nothing
(so far) will beat fresh batterys.. |
Yep. $12 per 1 AH of capacity is way too much. D8 would work just fine. L16, T105 would work too, be it home or RV, at the cost ~$1 per 1 AH and
average life 5-6 years.
Neither L16 nor T105 are marketed as RV battery, btw. T105 are normally referred to as Golfcart Battery, and L16 are more for industrial use. But
people use them in offgrid homes. After having used AGM for some time, I'm not sure it was worth it, compared to cheaper flooded L16 or T105 that I
see stacked in a "battery shack" of some houses .
A house for winter-only use, without A/C, say, 2000W solar and 2000 AH bank of multiple flooded batteries- total under $10K.
Energy audit is a must. Things like washer-drier or a walk-in fridge may throw the balance off.
[Edited on 12-4-2015 by Alm]
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durrelllrobert
Elite Nomad
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Thanks for your interest. I sent reply.
Bob Durrell
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durrelllrobert
Elite Nomad
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| Quote: Originally posted by monoloco | | Quote: Originally posted by durrelllrobert | Also, if you are considering concrete block construction consider this: an 8 foot high wall built using 16" x *" x 12" blocks reqires 8 blocks for
every 16" and at around $1 each thats $8 + the rebar and mortar, and labor for each 16" whereas metal studs at 16" on center will cost around $5 and
go up alot faster with less than 50% of the labor cost.
That's why you see almost all the new commercial buildings using these and I see lots of truck loads of metal studs heading south out of Ensenada.
The other advantage of these is that 10 8 foot metal studs weighs about the same as 1 douglas fir wooden stud so you can probably haul all that you
need in a single trip using a pickup with an 8 foot bed. In addition to the light weight the do not warp, twist or split when nailing and termites do
not eat them.
All of the house plans I have drawn the the last 2 years are completely framed with metal and the exterior covered with fibergalass impregnated
plaster board (DensGlass at Home Depot) that you just apply a thin coat of stucco over. Other advantages are that they come with openings to run your
electric wiring and plumbing through (no need to drill holes) and due to their supperior strength metal 2x4s at 16" O.C. can be used as ceiling joists
and rafters in leiu of wooden 2x6s. Send me a U2U if you want more information. |
A friend built a beautiful
house in Todos Santos using steel stud construction. Unfortunately, it was almost completely destroyed in hurricane Odile. I don't know if I'd
recommend that type of construction on the East Cape.
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By " almost completely destroyed" Iwould guess that you mean the roof was blown off and the same thing would have occured with a wood framed or
concrete block house IF THE RAFTERS ARE NOT PROPERLY CONNECTED TO TOP OF THE WALLS (Using Simpson hurricane ties). Walls framed using metal studs are
rated with a higher windshear than wooden stud construction is. The only other thing that a hurricane could do is to lift the whole house off it's
foundation because the walls were not properly anchored (using the same Simpson tie downs used for wood construction).
Bob Durrell
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durrelllrobert
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| Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo | I am a retired carpenter, and have worked with metal studs for years in commercial applications in Alaska. I prefer working with good straight
lumber, but that isn't always an option, especially in Mexico.
I would consider using metal myself if I was building a new home, but only with an experienced designer and contractor. The problems show up in the
fastening systems used, and skill of the workers. Load bearing and seismic/wind shear strength is easier to pull off with wood as well.
Good luck with the project, and keep on researching! |
In regards to wind shear see my repy to Monoloco below and with regards to seismic shear this was my U2U reponse to Stickers: Even in earthquake prone
california the required shear panels resistance comes from the plywood sheathing, applied to the interior or exterior, not the studs themeselves. When
framing with wodden studs hard to find 3x4s are used aound each shear panel perimiter to provided more area for staged 8d nailing at 6" OC without
splitting. With metal studs you just stagger the self tapping screws at 6" OC directly into a single metal stud. As far as shear panel tie downs to
the foundation, the same Simpson hardware used for wood studs can be used on metal studs.
Proper sized self tapping screws hav a geater shear and tensile strngth tan 16d nails and they do not pull out. You are correct in that a certain
amount of traing is required for the guy operating the screw gun but he need not be as skilled as a journeyman carpenter. The contractor that is
currently building a house to my set of plans hesitated because he said that he cut his finger both times he worked with metal studs before. Wonder
how many times he hit his finger with a hammer? and better keep him away fro a Skill saw.
Bob Durrell
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durrelllrobert
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7393
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| Quote: Originally posted by Paulclark | Steel studs don't work in a hurricane----look at all the destroyed hotels which used steel studs and went through Odile. I have built with steel
studs and it was the biggest construction mistake I made. Designed by an engineer for 140 MPH winds and the cladding was stripped off -- Densglass
sucks.
The latest solar systems are economical and a good system for 1,500 sq. ft. house, with electric fridge and normal conveniences, except AC cost
$15,000 complete with good batteries which should last 10 years.
Currently there are two construction options that are commonly used here. One is 3D panel which are strong and provide insulation and are very
flexible or concrete block (post and beam) using pre-stressed joists and insulation or cast in place roofs with Styrofoam insulation.
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My reply to Imlost stated:"Also, if you are considering concrete block construction consider this" and was only meant as an additional option.
I,m sorry for your mistake. However, if the structure was Engineered to withstand 140 mph winds metal stud framing will withstand those IF THE
CONTRACTOR BUILDS IT IN COMPLIANCE WITH ALL THE SPECIFICATIONS, especially all of the fastening (Simpson hold downs to the foundation and hurricane
ties to the roof structure.)
With regard to DensGlass and similar sheathing products The specified self tapping screws and spacing must be used without breaking the outer
fiberglass surface. the head on those screws is nearly double the diameter of a 16d nail and will not pull out of a metal stud the way a nail will
pull out of a wood stud.
With respect to "all the destroyed hotels which used steel studs" every pos Oldie picture I have seen shows the the metal framing survived in tact and
only the windows were blown out (same as a concrete structure) and the unknown type of exterior sheathing was sucked off? making for an easy repair:
By the way, were any of the ICS 3-D PANEL SYSTEM houses down there damaged by Oldie?
Bob Durrell
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imlost
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Thanks for the responses everyone. There's some great information offered here and I have a lot of thinking to do, thanks to you. I'm learning that
building generally it takes longer & costs more money than most people anticipate, when compared to the US.
I've heard from other people with experience, that termites can be a problem with any wood construction in Baja. It seems that if even if a person
used metal studs, that you'd still have to use plywood on the outside of that, right? Wouldn't the plywood be subject to termites? Seems like concrete
construction might be the way to go.
[Edited on 12-4-2015 by imlost]
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BajaUtah
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Registered: 10-4-2013
Location: Salt Lake City/La Ribera
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My tri-D panel house south of La Ribera made it through Odile with no damage to the envelope. We had just finished (second night in the house) and
Odile hit. Unprotected US vinyl windows made it fine. US French doors and local built wood doors made it fine with a bit of water in where thresholds
hadn't been installed yet.
The only problem was the palapa roof over the top deck was knocked partially over. We realize now we undersized the support structure. One pine pole
in each corner have now been replaced by 3 poles in each corner and we have a cross bracing system that can easily be added pre-storm.
I can't say enough good things about the tri-D type system. It is cool and quiet and comfortable. I don't understand why people still build with
block. Well I can understand the money part but it will pay for itself in a few years of AC.
Andy
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hookemup
Junior Nomad
Posts: 63
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: pac nw/ cabo pulmo
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Our 3D panel place in Cabo Pulmo was fine through both John and Oldie.
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durrelllrobert
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7393
Registered: 11-22-2007
Location: Punta Banda BC
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Mood: thriving in Baja
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| Quote: Originally posted by imlost | Thanks for the responses everyone. There's some great information offered here and I have a lot of thinking to do, thanks to you. I'm learning that
building generally it takes longer & costs more money than most people anticipate, when compared to the US.
I've heard from other people with experience, that termites can be a problem with any wood construction in Baja. It seems that if even if a person
used metal studs, that you'd still have to use plywood on the outside of that, right? Wouldn't the plywood be subject to termites? Seems like concrete
construction might be the way to go.
[Edited on 12-4-2015 by imlost] |
NO, PLYWOOD IS NOT THE MATERIAL USED AS SHEATHING ON METAL STUD FRAMING. A figerglass coated gypsum board is used that comes in 1/2" 4'x8' sheets. It
is termite and fireproff and what you see used mostly in Baja is yellow in color (DensGlass available at Home Depot) but other manufactures color
their's blue, purple or almost any other color. After you install it you apply a thin (about 1/8") stucco coat directly on it and you have a finished
exterior.
Bob Durrell
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durrelllrobert
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7393
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Location: Punta Banda BC
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| Quote: Originally posted by BajaUtah |
My tri-D panel house south of La Ribera made it through Odile with no damage to the envelope. We had just finished (second night in the house) and
Odile hit. Unprotected US vinyl windows made it fine. US French doors and local built wood doors made it fine with a bit of water in where thresholds
hadn't been installed yet.
The only problem was the palapa roof over the top deck was knocked partially over. We realize now we undersized the support structure. One pine pole
in each corner have now been replaced by 3 poles in each corner and we have a cross bracing system that can easily be added pre-storm.
I can't say enough good things about the tri-D type system. It is cool and quiet and comfortable. I don't understand why people still build with
block. Well I can understand the money part but it will pay for itself in a few years of AC. |
Good to hear that
Bob Durrell
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durrelllrobert
Elite Nomad
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Location: Punta Banda BC
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I THINK IT'S A GREAT SYSTEM OTHER THAN THE INITIAL COST AND FINDING A CONTRACTOR AND CREW THAT KNOW HOW TO BUILD WITH IT.As I understand it you really
need a swiming pool crew to shoot the Gunite onto the steel mesh on both sides and the wiring and plubing need to be install behind the mesh before it
is shot.
Bob Durrell
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El Jefe
Super Nomad
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Location: South East Cape
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Chalk up another 3D panel house that has stood up to ten year's of storms. We love ours. Yes, your contractor has to know how to use it, as would a
contractor who did metal studs. Either might be hard to find for a given location. EVERYONE in Mexico knows how to do block. Best keep that as your
realistic fall-back option.
No b-tchin\' in the Baja.
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huesos
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Registered: 6-24-2013
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3D panel
When you guys are talking about 3D panel systems, does this included a steel post and I beam initial structure with the lath hung inside that? Or is
this a system of wire cage freestanding?
I have found one of the former abandoned in my area. The steel frame is substantial and heavier than what I would construct for any residential
purpose.
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monoloco
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Posts: 6667
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| Quote: Originally posted by huesos | When you guys are talking about 3D panel systems, does this included a steel post and I beam initial structure with the lath hung inside that? Or is
this a system of wire cage freestanding?
I have found one of the former abandoned in my area. The steel frame is substantial and heavier than what I would construct for any residential
purpose. |
I have never seen 3d panel constructed around a steel post and beam framework. It would be totally
unnecessary as the 3d panel construction is structurally very strong.
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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monoloco
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Another material worth considering is EF Block, high R value, lightweight, goes up with standard construction techniques, and is made locally.
http://www.efblockmx.info
[Edited on 12-5-2015 by monoloco]
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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huesos
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Posts: 149
Registered: 6-24-2013
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3D panel
Do you have a web reference ( link) or general direction that you can send me in to get a look at this 3D panel system? I am assuming that without a
steel super structure, these panels must be manufactured somewhere. It would explain the sky high price per square foot figures being bandied about
here.
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