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pacificobob
Super Nomad
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We had a neighbor [he later became a US senator] as kids who had 3 huge ones.
The smaller of us rode them a time or two.
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boe4fun
Super Nomad
Posts: 1040
Registered: 1-22-2006
Location: Margaritaville
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Mood: Circling the drain........
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I have been laughing about those for more than 10 years
as you know I am in the desert often
I thought they were an environmentalist invention
and then I saw one crossing the trail
and another one
by the end of the day i had seen 5
Johnson Valley
and that was it
haven't seen one the last 20 years
We had 3 when I was a kid - Timmy, Tammy, and Oscar. Every morning they’d come from the backyard up to the back porch and patiently wait for my
mother to come out and give them lettuce.
Two dirt roads diverged in Baja and I, I took the one less graveled by......
Soy ignorante, apático y ambivalente. No lo sé y no me importa, ni modo.
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John Harper
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Quote: Originally posted by boe4fun  | I have been laughing about those for more than 10 years
as you know I am in the desert often
I thought they were an environmentalist invention
and then I saw one crossing the trail
and another one
by the end of the day i had seen 5
Johnson Valley
and that was it
haven't seen one the last 20 years
We had 3 when I was a kid - Timmy, Tammy, and Oscar. Every morning they’d come from the backyard up to the back porch and patiently wait for my
mother to come out and give them lettuce.
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Timmy? That was the name of mine! He (?) used to love malva, a weed that grew in the orchards.
John
[Edited on 1-16-2022 by John Harper]
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100X
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I appreciate all the responses. Because there was a little disparity I reviewed the US Code on the matter (16 USC sections 1361-1407) and it was
pretty interesting.
Disclaimer...Not legal advice, but...
The Code seems mainly directed at "taking" endangered marine species, such as the sea turtle, and especially where done for profit or sale. As
statutes do, of main pertinence for this discussion, it addresses definitions, then prohibitions and penalties.
Noteworthy definitions:
"Marine Mammal"...includes "any part of any such marine mammal" [shells would indeed be included].
"Take" is to "harass, hunt, capture, or kill" or attempt to do these things.
There is a Moratorium section covering the "taking and importing" although it is unclear if it applies where one either takes or imports, or only if
both are done in conjunction. "Importing" is not defined in these statues, but likely is elsewhere.
There is also a Prohibitions section which primarily prohibits "Taking" and, separately, "Importation of Illegally Taken Mammals."
There is of course a Penalties section, allowing up to a $10,000 fine for each offense, then the following subsection:
"In any case involving an alleged unlawful importation of a marine mammal or marine mammal product, if such importation is made by an individual for
his own personal or family use (which does not include importation as an accommodation to others or for sale or other commercial use), the Secretary
may, in lieu of instituting a proceeding under paragraph (1), allow the individual to abandon the mammal or product, under procedures to be prescribed
by the Secretary, to the enforcement officer at the port of entry."
So, no surprise, the law is long, convoluted and confusing. There is of course a lot more than what I have tried to boil it down to, and an energetic
prosecutor could no doubt make one's life miserable.
However, I did not "take" these marine mammals, and have no intent to sell or make a profit off them.
So...I just might not be washing my dirty underwear for a while...or I may just not even try to conceal it at all (actually them as I found another
one in the local dump--that one is smaller but appears to be a hybrid "Eclipse" shell)!
A life of fears leads to a death bed of regrets.
Find someone who will take care of you, and take care of them.
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100X
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And Harald, I definitely want one of those too!
Also, nice garden, by the way!
[Edited on 1-16-2022 by 100X]
A life of fears leads to a death bed of regrets.
Find someone who will take care of you, and take care of them.
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surfhat
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Would not the all to obviously empty and aged tortoise shell have some legitimacy to own? Just asking.
I would never take the chance myself. I do not need another dust collector on my display shelf.
These gentle water beings deserve our everlasting respect. They are far from alone among the many species we Baja lovers are privileged to experience
when we have the chance.
Peace, love and fish tacos hardly covers the appreciation we all share in our love for Baja.
Some, I dare say most, of our members are truly treasured for their love of Baja. You know who you are.
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AKgringo
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Marine Mammal?
Quote;.... "Noteworthy definitions:
"Marine Mammal"...includes "any part of any such marine mammal" [shells would indeed be included].
"Take" is to "harass, hunt, capture, or kill" or attempt to do these things."
_______________________________________
That wouldn't apply to turtles, although I am sure that there is some other statute that applies to them. At least I hope so!
[Edited on 1-16-2022 by AKgringo]
If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space!
"Could do better if he tried!" Report card comments from most of my grade school teachers. Sadly, still true!
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100X
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Good point AK--guess I looked right past the obvious Will continue research.
A life of fears leads to a death bed of regrets.
Find someone who will take care of you, and take care of them.
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100X
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From NOAA:
Relevant Laws
Sea turtles and Hawaiian monk seals are protected under the Endangered Species Act (16 USC 1531 et seq.). Monk seals are also protected under the
Marine Mammal Protection Act (16 USC 1361 et seq.). These laws prohibit unauthorized “take”, whether by killing, injuring, or capturing the animal
or by other acts of harassment. Additionally, feeding or attempting to feed a wild monk seal (or any marine mammal) is also prohibited. However, we
know that unintentional interactions (hookings and entanglements) can occur when fishing, even when fishermen take steps to avoid them. The Fishing
Around Seals and Turtles (FAST) program was developed via a multi-agency partnership that includes NOAA Fisheries, the Hawaiʻi Department of Land and
Natural Resources (DLNR) Division of Aquatic Resources (DAR) and Division of Conservation and Resource Enforcement (DOCARE), expert fishermen, and the
Hawai'i Fishermen's Alliance for Conservation and Tradition (HFACT). Participants in State of Hawai'i managed fisheries, must comply with both federal
and Hawaii State fishing regulations.
Will also look at the ESA, but looks like may be a similar approach. Will follow up.
A life of fears leads to a death bed of regrets.
Find someone who will take care of you, and take care of them.
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100X
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It looks like 16 USC section 1538 applies:
§ 1538. Prohibited acts
16 USC 1531-1544 Endangered Species Act
(a) Generally
(1) Except as provided in sections 1535 (g)(2) and 1539 of this title, with respect to any endangered species of fish or wildlife listed pursuant to
section 1533 of this title it is unlawful for any person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to—
(A) import any such species into, or export any such species from the United States;
(B) take any such species within the United States or the territorial sea of the United States;
(C) take any such species upon the high seas;
(D) possess, sell, deliver, carry, transport, or ship, by any means whatsoever, any such species taken in violation of subparagraphs (B) and (C);
(E) deliver, receive, carry, transport, or ship in interstate or foreign commerce, by any means whatsoever and in the course of commercial activity,
any such species;
(F) sell or offer for sale in interstate or foreign commerce any such species; or
(G) violate any regulation pertaining to such species or to any threatened species of fish or wildlife listed pursuant to section 1533 of this title
and promulgated by the Secretary pursuant to authority provided by this chapter.
If I am reading it correctly, because the turtle was not "taken" and is not for sale/in commerce (these are the two real focuses of the Act), it is
fine for me to possess it, even in the US.
The potential for problems seems only related to its being imported into the US, but the rest of the Act is a bit confusing on this.
(I also read in another statute the feathers of wild birds are problematic).
[Edited on 1-16-2022 by 100X]
A life of fears leads to a death bed of regrets.
Find someone who will take care of you, and take care of them.
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wilderone
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16 USC § 1532(8) The term “fish or wildlife” means any member of the animal kingdom, including without limitation any mammal, fish, bird
(including any migratory, nonmigratory, or endangered bird for which protection is also afforded by treaty or other international agreement),
amphibian, reptile, mollusk, crustacean, arthropod or other invertebrate, and includes any part, product, egg, or offspring thereof, or the dead body
or parts thereof.
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100X
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16 USC section 1532 (8) does say that, but only "endangered species" as defined in section 1532 (6) (or listed per the provisions of 1533 and also the
CITES Treaty) get the real protections of the ESA, including the prohibitions and penalties of 1538 and 1540, respectively.
It is just not very noble to watch what appears to be a rare hybrid Green-Loggerhead shell sitting unappreciated and deteriorating in a smelly trash
yard next to scallop shells and wahoo carcasses and all manner of rusting and degrading metal and plastic items. I am really on the fence on this.
[Edited on 1-17-2022 by 100X]
A life of fears leads to a death bed of regrets.
Find someone who will take care of you, and take care of them.
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John Harper
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Maybe leave it at a friend's place, so you can save it, and always visit it when in Baja?
Clean it up and hit it with some marine grade urethane, might bring back some of the color. You're not procuring it for the local natural history
museum.
John
[Edited on 1-17-2022 by John Harper]
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BigWooo
Senior Nomad
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If you are looking for turtle shells, come to San Juanico. Went on a long walk on the beach. Average is 1-3 dead turtles per mile.
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Skipjack Joe
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The fishermen here in Asuncion will still 'harvest' turtles when they come across them out in their pangas. Privately. My son was invited to a turtle
meal two weeks ago by my neighbor.
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fishmaster
Junior Nomad
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FYI "take" according to the F&W Service is any contact what-so-ever! This includes making contact with an endangered species, like you shouldn't
even touch one.
I would NOT try to bring this shell back across the border unless you are willing to pay the consequences. It is definitely, unquestionably illegal
to possess.
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100X
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I am not “looking for shells.”
I have posted what look to be the relevant statutes.
“Harassment” indeed is a prohibited “taking.” But I see no support that one can either harass or take something that has been long dead.
Likewise, the cited statute does not make possession of an endangered species part illegal UNLESS illegally taken, and those situations are set forth
in the cited statutes (and do not apply here).
As noted, the import is illegal, maybe.
Feel free to cite the law itself in response. There are certainly pages and pages of it. Otherwise my legal citation is probably more accurate.
A life of fears leads to a death bed of regrets.
Find someone who will take care of you, and take care of them.
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mtgoat666
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You cannot legally collect/possess live or dead endangered species. You should quit scrounging for a reason to do something illegal, just admire the
shell on the beach, and leave it be.
From USFWS https://www.fws.gov/endangered/permits/faq.html
"The Endangered Species Act (ESA) makes it unlawful to import or export; deliver, receive, carry, transport, or ship in interstate or foreign commerce
in the course of a commercial activity; sell or offer for sale in interstate or foreign commerce; take (includes harm, harass, pursue, hunt, shoot,
wound, kill, trap, capture, or collect any wildlife within the United States); take on the high seas; possess, ship, deliver, carry, transport, sell,
or receive unlawfully taken wildlife; remove and reduce to possession any plant from areas under federal jurisdiction; maliciously damage or destroy
an endangered plant on areas under federal jurisdiction; and remove, cut, dig up, or damage or destroy any endangered plant in knowing violation of
any state law or regulation or in the course of a violation of a state criminal trespass law.* These prohibitions apply to live or dead animals or
plants, their progeny (seeds in the case of plants), and parts or products derived from them."
Also from USFWS https://www.fws.gov/home/feature/2007/seaturtles2.pdf
All seven sea turtle species are protected under the Convention on
International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora
(CITES) – a global agreement through which the United States and
more than 170 other nations work together to safeguard animal and
plant resources from unsustainable trade.
• Animal and plant species are listed on three different “appendices” under CITES and receive different levels of protection depending on the
viability of wild populations.
• Sea turtles are listed on Appendix I of the treaty, meaning that
commercial trade is generally prohibited.
• Six sea turtle species are listed as endangered or threatened under the U.S. Endangered Species Act (ESA).
• The hawksbill, Kemp’s ridley, and leatherback sea turtles are
considered endangered throughout their ranges. Endangered means
that a species is considered at risk of extinction.
• The loggerhead sea turtle is listed as threatened (meaning that it is likely to become endangered).
• Specific populations of two other species – the green sea turtle and the olive ridley sea turtle – are listed as endangered, with all other
populations considered threatened.
• Under the ESA, it is generally illegal to kill a listed species or to
import, export, or sell it in interstate commerce.
• A seventh species – the flatback sea turtle, which is native to Australian waters – is not listed under the ESA, but is protected under the
CITES treaty.
• Many countries around the world – including Mexico – also have laws that protect sea turtles from harvest and commercial use.
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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100X
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Goat, don’t gloat! You haven’t added anything to the discussion.
The Fish and Wildlife Service, who is partially in charge of enforcing the statutes, provided a FAQ to try and boil them down.
I don’t think anything posted is different than what I posted.
And possession, in the US, is not always prohibited, and does NOT appear to be prohibited under these circumstances.
Again…the real issue here is the import of the thing.
A life of fears leads to a death bed of regrets.
Find someone who will take care of you, and take care of them.
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Cancamo
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Settled,
Get yourself legal representation, on both sides of the border, and bring it back to hang the wall, or place in the yard........if it doesn't end up
in an evidence locker.
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