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surabi
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My propane hot water heater is outside, so even if it were emitting CO, it wouldn't be a danger. My gas stove wouldn't be a danger either, as my
windows (and there are lots) are always open, so there is plenty of ventilation. Where you really have to be concerned is in enclosed spaces. So yes,
if travelers are going to stay in hotel rooms, houses or apartments where the windows are closed because the place has AC or heating, carrying a CO
detector with you is a good idea.Even if the place says it has CO detectors, you have no idea whether they are working properly.
[Edited on 6-16-2023 by surabi]
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karenintx
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Quote: Originally posted by surabi  |
If you think that will alert you to carbon monoxide, you are mistaken. Gas leaks and carbon monoxide are two completely different things. Gas leaks
are dangerous because they can result in an explosion. Carbon monoxide is produced by improper combustion in the appliance and have nothing to do with
gas leaks.
You need a CO detector to alert you to carbon monoxide.
In fact, a CO detector is more important than a gas leak detector because you can usually smell a gas leak. They add that stuff that smells kind of
like rotten eggs to propane specifically so you can smell a leak. Whereas carbon monoxide is odorless.
Gas appliances should burn with a blue flame. If the flame is yellow or orange, it isn't adjusted properly and islikely emitting CO.
[Edited on 6-16-2023 by surabi] |
You are absolutely right, I probably should have added that we have CO monitors in our bedroom and in the mudroom. I just was talking about our
propane gas monitor.
Safety first has always been our motto! We have flashlights and fire extinguishers stored next to each other in a kitchen cabinet and in our bedroom
along with smoke alarms it multiple rooms. All batteries are replace every six-months and fire extinguishers are replaced before expiration dates or
if the needle starts to get low.
Hopefully this can be a learning example for all of us to inspect our homes for safety. Condolences to both families for their losses.
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surabi
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Good thing you understand the difference, karen. A lot of people don't. I read a post on an Airbnb forum where a guest was all up in arms because the
place he'd rented had a gas line running through a bedroom where his kids were sleeping, saying that because the place had no CO detector, his kids
could have died of CO poisoning.
Responders to his post either ignorantly sided with him, as they obviously didn't understand the difference either, and others tried to explain to him
that CO detectors have nothing to do with gas leaks, but he just kept doubling down with his ignorance.
Of course, an exposed gas line running through a bedroom is pretty weird, and the host should definitely have a CO detector in the unit if there are
gas appliances, but that wasn't what the guest was talking about.
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KurtG
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https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-06-16/mexica...
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mtgoat666
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May not want to stay at a Hyatt until they fix their safety program!
Mexico City — Current and former employees at a luxury hotel in Mexico where two Americans were found dead this week said managers of the resort
ignored repeated signs of a possible gas leak and disabled carbon monoxide detectors to stop their alarms from disturbing guests.
Ricardo Carbajal, a former night manager at Rancho Pescadero, a $600-a-night beachfront boutique hotel owned by Hyatt, said carbon monoxide detectors
sounded frequently over a period of about three months late last year, likely because of leaks in a system that delivers gas to fire pits on the
outdoor patios of each room.
In January, Carbajal said, after repeated complaints from guests about the loud alarms, hotel managers disabled the detectors.
“They knew there were problems with gas leaks,” said Carbajal, who stopped working at the resort in March after a dispute over pay. “Everyone
was aware of the alarms and that the detectors were off.”
Two current employees who spoke on condition of anonymity because they feared for their jobs also said that hotel managers ignored complaints about
the strong smell of gas from both guests and employees.
“Housekeepers reported gas leaks, security reported gas leaks, maintenance workers reported gas leaks,” said one of the employees. The employee
said that a few days before the guests were found dead, a housekeeper cleaning their room fell ill because of suspected gas poisoning, the employee
said.
Autopsies suggest the two died of “intoxication by an undetermined substance,” prosecutors in Mexico’s Baja California Sur state told the
Associated Press.
Local police initially reported that gas inhalation was suspected as the cause of death.
Hyatt officials previously said they do not believe the deaths were related to problems with the hotel infrastructure or a gas leak. They did not
immediately respond to requests for comment regarding disabled carbon monoxide alarms at the resort.
But new accounts from two paramedics who responded to the deaths lend credence to the theory that gas poisoning was likely to blame.
Fernando Valencia Sotelo and Grisel Valencia Sotelo, firefighters who are also siblings, arrived at the hotel late Tuesday after staff discovered the
bodies of Heathco and Lutz.
The two firefighters immediately fell ill upon entering the couple’s hotel room, according to a GoFundMe account established to raise money for
their medical care. They received treatment at a hospital and were released Friday.
In a Friday interview with “Good Morning America,” Lutz’s stepmother, Racquel Lutz, said the young woman had told her family Monday evening that
she and Heathco had spent the previous night in the hospital because they felt sick and thought they had food poisoning. Lutz said they had been given
fluids intravenously and were feeling better.
“She texted [her father] Monday night to say goodnight, love you, and then we hadn’t heard from her again,” Racquel Lutz said.
Chad Richeson, Abby Lutz’s uncle — who is acting as a spokesperson for the family — said that Lutz and Heathco spent time at the pool Monday but
it was not clear how much time they spent in their room.
The Lutz family was traveling to Mexico on Friday to “to bring Abby home” and was not available for further comment, Richeson said.
Abby Lutz did not mention any unusual or powerful smells to her family, Richeson said. Neither the hotel nor Hyatt has reached out to the Lutzes, he
said.
In a statement, her family described Lutz as “a light to everyone around her” who was known for her smile and laugh and for “making everyone
feel special.”
“It is our hope that more information will come to light to explain what happened to Abby, and why,” the statement said. “This information will
help us gain closure, and may prevent this type of incident from happening in the future. We don’t wish for anyone else to go through this
tragedy.”
Outside the hotel Friday, several dozen employees gathered for a protest. They detailed a history of labor disputes with hotel managers and complained
that their concerns about safety were not addressed.
“We are indignant that we reported this, and this tragedy still happened,” said one of the employees who spoke on condition of anonymity.
Alexander Coughlin, a real estate agent from San Francisco, stayed at Rancho Pescadero from Friday through Monday. He ate at the hotel’s restaurant,
Kahal, on Friday night and was originally seated near a fire feature, which he said ran the length of the restaurant. There were about 30 other people
in the restaurant that night, he said, including many of whom sat near the fire.
Within about five minutes of his seating, Coughlin said he was overwhelmed by a strong smell of gas and asked twice to be moved. A waiter agreed with
him that the odor was powerful, Coughlin told The Times.
He said the property’s food and beverage director reached out to him by email about his survey rating his stay at the hotel, which included grading
his dining experience. He told the director about the smell.
“That was the first thing I mentioned in my email,” Coughlin said. He sent the email Wednesday afternoon but said he hasn’t heard anything more
from the resort.
It was the only time he detected a gas smell, said Coughlin, who added that he did not recall seeing Lutz or Heathco on the property.
[Edited on 6-16-2023 by mtgoat666]
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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surabi
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What you just posted, Goat, is a perfect example of people being ignorant about the difference between CO and gas leaks. The employee is ignorant.
While the hotel management should certainly not have disabled the CO detectors, if they were constantly going off and disturbing guests, it was
because there is some appliance in the room or building emitting CO, not because of a gas leak. And a barbeque out on an outdoor patio would not fill
the unit with carbon monoxide, even if it wasn't combusting properly.
If guests could smell gas, that has nothing whatsoever to do with CO, which is odorless.
That article is really stupid because it just promotes complete misunderstanding of how carbon monoxide is produced and what CO detectors do. They
absolutely would not go off in the case of gas leaks.
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: Originally posted by surabi | What you just posted, Goat, is a perfect example of people being ignorant about the difference between CO and gas leaks. The employee is ignorant.
While the hotel management should certainly not have disabled the CO detectors, if they were constantly going off and disturbing guests, it was
because there is some appliance in the room or building emitting CO, not because of a gas leak. And a barbeque out on an outdoor patio would not fill
the unit with carbon monoxide, even if it wasn't combusting properly.
If guests could smell gas, that has nothing whatsoever to do with CO, which is odorless.
That article is really stupid because it just promotes complete misunderstanding of how carbon monoxide is produced and what CO detectors do. They
absolutely would not go off in the case of gas leaks.
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The article is fine, reports what people said or experienced. Details are less important. The key take away is that the hotel had detectors and
employees disabled them because they were annoyed with the alarms going off! Failure of the safety and maintenance programs.
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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surabi
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It is not "fine" to make ignorant statements. Absolutely the hotel should not be disabling safety equipment, and the employees were responsible in
mentioning that and should not have been ignored, but if the guests smelled gas, that has nothing to do with disabled CO detectors.
A gas leak detector will not alert you to carbon monoxide.
A carbon monoxide detector will not alert you to gas leaks.
If people fail to understand that, it is dangerous because they may think a device will warn them when it won't.
[Edited on 6-16-2023 by surabi]
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: Originally posted by surabi | It is not "fine" to make ignorant statements. Absolutely the hotel should not be disabling safety equipment, and the employees were responsible in
mentioning that and should not have been ignored, but if the guests smelled gas, that has nothing to do with disabled CO detectors.
A gas leak detector will not alert you to carbon monoxide.
A carbon monoxide detector will not alert you to gas leaks.
If people fail to understand that, it is dangerous because they may think a device will warn them when it won't.
[Edited on 6-16-2023 by surabi] |
If the hotel disabled an detector/alarm system, and then guests died due to substance that would have been detected by the disabled system, then that
is murder.
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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surabi
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Goat- if it is found that the guests died of carbon monoxide poisoning and the CO detectors were disabled, the hotel is indeed responsible for their
deaths. It would be not likely be classified as murder, which carries with it a burden of proof that there was intent to kill. The charge would be
willful negligence leading to death. Similar to when a child dies because the caregivers failed to provide the necesities of life. It isn't considered
murder, it is negligence leading to death.
I simply object to the spreading of the misinformation that a gas leak that guests and employees had been able to smell has anything to do with CO
poisoning or disabled CO detectors. That would be a different issue. If the guests died of propane gas inhalation, which is also possible, that would
relate to a gas leak that was detectable by smell or by a gas leak detector.
When a person tries to commit suicide by sticking their head in a gas oven where the gas is turned on but not lit, they will die of propane or natural
gas inhalation, not carbon monoxide poisoning. Both can kill you, as the gases take the place of oxygen, but one gas is odorless and the other is not,
and they are two different causes of death.
[Edited on 6-16-2023 by surabi]
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: Originally posted by surabi |
I simply object to the spreading of the misinformation that a gas leak that guests and employees had been able to smell has anything to do with CO
poisoning or disabled CO detectors. |
CO problem may be related to propane leaks. It may be that both problems have their root cause in hotel management that was ignoring problems that
they should have been fixing. One defect can cause many failures, many symptoms.
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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surabi
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No Goat, CO problems are not related to gas leaks, any more than if your car was leaking gas it would have anything to do with your car's electrical
system. Stop doubling down on what you obviously don't understand.
That the hotel has been negligent in its observations of safety standards, and should be charged, fined, and closed until they can prove they maintain
safety protocols, and get regular inspections to ensure they don't disable equipment, appears to be obvious.
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: Originally posted by surabi | No Goat, CO problems are not related to gas leaks, any more than if your car was leaking gas it would have anything to do with your car's electrical
system. Stop doubling down on what you obviously don't understand.
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Re-read it. They have same root cause, bad hotel management, so are related by root cause. Different chemicals, different sources, but release due
to same root cause.
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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RFClark
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S & G,
What isn’t being discussed here yet are the construction cost overruns and labor problems during construction. These problems both propane leaks and
CO leaks could stem from the construction and money issues.
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surabi
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CO doesn't "leak", and has nothing to do with construction costs or labor problems during construction. Carbon monoxide is produced by improper
combustion in a gas appliance. It is produced in the appliance itself, not in the gas lines, not at the gas tanks. The only way that happens is
either because the appliance was defective to begin with, or the combustion isn't adjusted properly.
(There are other sources of carbon monoxide, like vehicle exhaust, so I suppose it's possible that a hotel could have an in-building parking garage
where the exhaust could make its way into the rooms, but that doesn't seem likely- most parking garages are open to the outside, so CO would
disipate.)
Gas stoves with pilot lights are potentially more dangerous than those with electronic ignitions, like mine, or those you have to light manually,
because the pilot light itself could be constantly emitting CO. Or an appliance may not be in the unit itself, but the CO is entering the unit from
wherever it is being produced, through the air ducting system, under doors, whatever.
The smell of leaking gas, which is a different problem, could certainly be due to faulty gas fittings during construction. The hotel had apparently
had other guests mention the smell of gas and seemingly hadn't gotten anyone to check out where it was coming from and fix it. Leaking gas lines can
cause an explosion if someone lights a match or lighter or it is in an appliance which has a flame. Every few years I can smell propane gas in my
kitchen, put soapy water on the stove fittings and hose that connects to the gas line and always find that the hose itself needs to be replaced. I
think when the gal who cleans for me pulls the stove out to clean behind and slides it back in place, she kinks the hose which eventually causes it to
start leaking.
But construction overruns and labor problems are entirely irrelevant to a hotel disabling safety warning devices or not hiring someone to locate the
source of the propane smell. If the CO detectors were constantly going off, that means there was CO in the units and instead of having a technician
find out what appliances were emitting CO and fixing them, they just disabled the alarms.
It's like disabling your vehicle engine warning light because it keeps flashing, instead of taking your car to a mechanic to find out what's wrong
with the engine.
[Edited on 6-17-2023 by surabi]
[Edited on 6-17-2023 by surabi]
[Edited on 6-17-2023 by surabi]
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SFandH
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| Quote: Originally posted by surabi | CO doesn't "leak", and has nothing to do with construction costs or labor problems during construction.
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Assuming for the moment that a faulty appliance is the cause, could it be that the appliance was not properly vented to the outside during
construction and a post-construction safety inspection was not performed?
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JDCanuck
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There are very inexpensive units from Kidde that detect both CO and "gas" leaks and can easily be installed in any residence that has unused power
receptacles.
Easy to test frequently and with voice announcements that specify which they have detected. We have several smoke, fire, CO and gas detectors
wired(linked) and battery operated installed in our home in Canada. A very cheap insurance is available. Unfortunately, far too many fatal fires are
reported where people refused to replace their batteries because of nuisance alarms.
https://www.homedepot.ca/product/kidde-plug-in-carbon-monoxi...
Secondly, just because a hot water heater, gas storage tank or BBQ is installed outside, do not assume you are protected, as most leaks will be found
in the piping buried within the walls, either because improper materials were used, seismic activity has caused leaks or several other factors. We
found three leaks on delivery piping when we had all the exposed joints tested for leaks recently following new construction.
[Edited on 6-17-2023 by JDCanuck]
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JDCanuck
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There was a tragic case in our small town years ago where a bad joint in the gas supply line buried outside the home traveled along the line into the
house and when the daughter switched on her light switch in the morning the accumulated natural gas exploded, blew the roof off the house and the
mother was killed when it fell back down. The daughter was blown out the side of the house and survived.
If you use gas to run any appliances, one of those detectors should be a must have, especially in Baja
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AKgringo
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Last year a cabin near Donner Summit blew up because a heavy, dense snow pack damaged a regulator or supply line on a propane tank. Being heavier
than air, the propane followed a void in the snow into the cabin, and eventually found an ignition source!
That has happened a few times that I am aware of in the Tahoe/Truckee area.
If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space!
"Could do better if he tried!" Report card comments from most of my grade school teachers. Sadly, still true!
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JDCanuck
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| Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo | Last year a cabin near Donner Summit blew up because a heavy, dense snow pack damaged a regulator or supply line on a propane tank. Being heavier
than air, the propane followed a void in the snow into the cabin, and eventually found an ignition source!
That has happened a few times that I am aware of in the Tahoe/Truckee area. |
Which indicates that propane or butane gas detectors should be installed lower on walls than we typically install the fire/smoke or even CO/natural
gas detectors. Our CO detectors are installed about 3/4 up the wall, while propane/butane gas detectors should be installed near floor levels. Oddly,
in our leaks at Baja the Mercaptan smell we typically rely on up here was not detected in our butane leaks that were located with soap testing. Do
they not add mercaptan to the bottles in Baja?
[Edited on 6-17-2023 by JDCanuck]
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