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durrelllrobert
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Mood: thriving in Baja
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To this day I truely believe that The Holy Gost was nailing the Virgin Mary long before Joseph got his chance.
Bob Durrell
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Iflyfish
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Skip:
I don't see it as an either/or proposition but a both/and.
Our Western way of understanding things goes back to Aristotle who broke the world into pieces and that has resulted in an analytical process that
indeed has helped us understand how things work from a scientific perspective and produced a lot of benefit for mankind, as well as some pretty
terrible things like Atom Bombs.
On the other hand there are different ways of perceiving what we by consensus describe as reality. It is interesting to note that the brain has to
turn right side up the images that are perceived thru the lenses of our eyes. The brain is a regulatory organ and in many helpful ways LIMITS or
senses and perceptions. This is helpful as it allows us to not be distracted by so much input. People whose filter mechanisms are screwed up have a
difficult time maneuvering thru the world and often carry with them Psychiatric diagnosis.
There is I believe value in the Eastern view of things when approaching those issues related to matters "spiritual" or "religious" or the sort of
experiences tha t some have shared with us.
It is interesting to note that Western Physics now sounds and looks much like Eastern Metaphysics.
Watts was an Episcopalian cleric who studied the teaching of the East and came away, as many Western Theologians who study the East, with a Buddhist
sort of perspective, of the world and everything in it as part of an interacting whole.
I can understand your discomfort with Watts, who challenges our firmly held perceptions of that consensus we call reality. It helps to be comfortable
with altered states to "get" Zen.
I imagine you have had the experience of fly-fishing and you get that wonderful feeling of being ship/rod/fly/fish and get into the flow of it.
Ahhhh!!!! That is the un-self conscious state I think that Watts and others of the Eastern persuasion point to.
Psychologically it can be very frightening for people to allow themselves to experience this "letting go of the self" because of the fear of losing
the self. For those who have pretty loosely packed egos or too tightly paced egos it can be very dangerous to "surrender" to experience and to "get
out of the mind". I think that this is why some people can't orgasm. It takes letting go. Our developmental experiences related to trust can have
powerful influences on the ability to "let go" and "to be".
I am glad that I have motor vehicle or airplane that I can ride to Baja. These are products of the Western way of looking at things. I am also glad
that I can experience myself on the beaches of Mexico being beach/sand/flyrod/fly/fishing/dancing to Credence Clear Water Revival and not be afraid of
dying.
Iflyfish
[Edited on 6-12-2012 by Iflyfish]
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Iflyfish
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| Quote: | Originally posted by comitan
LIKE!!!! |
Well said!! A good discussion can do that!
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
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As regards the integration of the Western and Eastern perspectives music can be an interesting to think about.
Music is perfectly logical however it also has the capacity to "carry you", to "uplift you", to allow you access to deeper levels of feeling. Music is
both/and.
Considering the meter, key, cleft, blobs of ink on the page representing relative positions of notes, counterpoint, triads etc., the logical aspects
of it allows one to compose something that one cannot fully appreciate without dropping consciousness of these things. To be carried by music is to
let go of these mechanical devices, necessary to the composition of the music. This is why I have said that music is both/and, a wonderful metaphor
and experience to integrate the seeming duality of East/West metaphysics.
Allan Watts gives a wonderful lecture on this topic here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjOtxviwmw
Iflyfish
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toneart
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Alan Watts had a houseboat in Sausalito at the same time I did. We had many a conversation. At first, I too regarded him with skepticism. Then I read
his books and put the personal familiarity together with the man's work. I thought he had an air of hokiness about him, but ultimately decided
otherwise. The work overpowered his manner. Then...it might have been a test.
I approached Zen Buddhism from an aesthetic perspective, rather than becoming an ascetic. I have sat Zazen, meditated, read volumes of material
including Haiku, studied Zen Art, and incorporated it into my own art; painting and glass art. Yet, I am too involved in The Western World to become a
monk.
Gary Snyder, the Pulitizer Prize winning Poet lives and has a Zen Ashram across The Yuba River from Nevada City, where I live. A few years ago, my
band played quiet, original jazz during intermission when he held a reading. I run into him on occasion and it is always a pleasure. What an
enlightened Human Being!
When I was an English Literature Student at San Francisco State University, I modeled my work, a blend of Zen and Nature, after Snyder, and also some
of the other Beat Poets in North Beach.
It is so interesting to me how certain philosophies can resonate with one and not with another. Many have melded the teachings of Eastern and Western
Civilization.
It is hard to say what is attractive about Eastern teachings to one and "revulsion" to another. I think it has to do with the curiosity to set out on
a quest to find The Truth when you are young and suddenly a revelation hits you, if you're lucky, right between the eyes (The God Spot).
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
Zen parable:
"Truth has nothing to do with words. Truth can be likened to the bright moon in the sky. Words, in this case, can be likened to a finger. The finger
can point to the moon's location. However, the finger is not the moon. To look at the moon, it is necessary to gaze beyond the finger, right?"
Here is Alan Watts giving his lecture on Fingers Pointing at the Moon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEKwJjeSQXk&feature=playe...
Here is a demonstration of Fingers Pointing at the Moon by Bruce Lee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDW6vkuqGLg&feature=relat...
My brother quotes Lau Tsu on the matter.
Lau Tsu
From verse 32
The way is for ever nameless….. As soon as there are names
One ought to know that it is time to stop…..
The way is to the world as the River and the Sea are to rivulets and streams.
I guess sometimes words just fail! Finally got to this point on Tues, Wow!
Iflyfish
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I have to admit I have an almost visceral revulsion to this form of knowledge. When I read the sort of stuff Watts writes I feel I'm being duped. I
guess that's why psychology has always been a suspectful science to me.
All of this reminds me of Plato's allegory of the Caves. As you know the story goes that men are chained to the walls and only see the shadows of the
world on the wall. From that they deduce reality.
Taking this further we come to the view that all of our modern evaluations of truth by tests and quantifications are the wrong way to go about it. All
we need to do is face reality and somehow it will be perceived naturally.
Unfortunately our civilization stands on the shoulders of men who 'study the shadows'. Our progress is due precisely because we chose to NOT look at
the moon. It's the people who don't look at the moon that come up with cures for cancer and the internet.
Instead of looking at the moon and sensing it's reality the person examining the finger learns with his painstaking method of studying shadows, he
learns the laws of motion and flies to the moon.
It is precisely because Western civilization has decided to gain knowledge by not looking at the moon that it has advanced so far and so fast past the
older civilzation. Starting with the Renaissance.
---------------------------
See, I'm on your side now, Ken. |
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Ateo
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Nex topic on the Skeet thread:
Free Will.
Real or not? 
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Cypress
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toneart, Curiosity! Magic! Mystery! It's all blended together.
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DianaT
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Alan Watts and the blending of East and West to me is mind expanding and can lead to even more creative ideas for the future.
In all of my classrooms, in the prisons and in public schools, I always used a simplified lesson taken from Watts that questions western
philosophy/logic. It was the pool table example of why the one ball went into the pocket. ALWAYS, the overwhelming answers were based on western
logic -- the stick hit ball A which hit ball B and because it was aimed property, ball B ended up in the pocket.
Next the students would start thinking of other possibilities and all possibilities were discussed and questioned-- there were lots of lessons
involved and rather mind expanding for the students.
For me, it is not an either or thing as there are positive ideas and thoughts that can be drawn from many philosophies, traditions, religions, and
secular writings.
[Edited on 6-12-2012 by DianaT]
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ateo
Nex topic on the Skeet thread:
Free Will.
Real or not? |
Do you think Skeet would prefer John Calvin or Eric Hoffer ---
Me, I miss Calvin and Hobbs!
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vgabndo
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Tony: Your comment on our common background interest in the beats reminded me of this which you may remember, and seems sort of appropriate.
From: A Coney Island of the Mind
'Truth is not the sectet of a few'
yet
you would maybe think so
the way some
librarians
and cultural ambassadors and
especially museum directors
act
you'd think they had a corner
on it
the way they
walk around shaking
their high heads and
looking as if they never
went to the bath
room or anything
But I wouldn't blame them
if I were you
They say the Spititual is best conceived
in abstract terms
and then too
walking around museums always makes me
want to
"sit down"
I always feel so
constipated
in those
high altitudes
Ferlinghetti, and bongos and berets at the Fox and Hound. 
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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Skipjack Joe
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Iflyfish,
Do you believe that there is such a thing as a soul?
And if so, what is it?
----------------------------------
Oh, and BTW don't be concerned about that orgasm stuff.
[Edited on 6-13-2012 by Skipjack Joe]
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Iflyfish
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Iflyfish,
Do you believe that there is such a thing as a soul?
And if so, what is it?
----------------------------------
Oh, and BTW don't be concerned about that orgasm stuff.
[Edited on 6-13-2012 by Skipjack Joe] |
If you believe in a soul then you have one for sure! You would have to tell me what it is.
As to the orgasm stuff I always clean up after myself, good for the soul, cleanliness being next to godliness and all.
Iflyfish
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vgabndo
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Sam Harris is one of my favorites, and listening to this talk I found that if he is correct, then I really have less reason to be cross with newbi and
777 for their inflexible stance than to feel compassion that they have no free will in the matter.
Free will was proffered as a related topic earlier and this Sam Harris piece makes a compelling case that our conditioned brain is making decisions
for us before we are conscious that we are going to make them! No free will.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g
I wouldn't want to be in an intellectual gunfight with this guy!!!
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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Ken Bondy
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Harris' latest book "Free Will" makes a compelling case that there is no such thing as free will. David Eagleman, in his book "Incognito", approaches
it from a somewhat different direction but comes to the same conclusion. As to "souls", no, there is no such thing. We are our physical bodies, no
more, no less. I am completely comfortable with that.
[Edited on 6-13-2012 by Ken Bondy]
carpe diem!
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Harris' latest book "Free Will" makes a compelling case that there is no such thing as free will. David Eagleman, in his book "Incognito", approaches
it from a somewhat different direction but comes to the same conclusion. As to "souls", no, there is no such thing. We are our physical bodies, no
more, no less. I am completely comfortable with that.
[Edited on 6-13-2012 by Ken Bondy] |
What about your personal mental "energy"?? Does it just disperse into the Universe when you expire, never to coalesce again? That is one thing (of
many) that has always puzzled me.
Barry
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Ken Bondy
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Barry
When you die you enter the same nothingness you were in before you were born. That state didn't inconvenience me in the slightest before I was born
and it won't after I am gone. The mental "energy" is organic activity in your brain and it dies when the brain dies.
carpe diem!
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Ateo
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Mark Twain said something like this:
"I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."
As far as Harris is concerned, I saw him recently at Cal Tech for a debate, and realized he has speaking skills like no other.
I look forward to the future.
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Ken Bondy
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I remember the Twain quotation. I think I borrowed from it 
I think Harris is incredibly brilliant and eloquent. A few years ago I saw him debate Chris Hedges on religion at UCLA. Harris demolished him.
Hedges' arguments were all circular, based on the premise that the bible is true because it says it is. What a surprise.
carpe diem!
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mcfez
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Can we get back onto the subject of weird snake experiments?
Old people are like the old cars, made of some tough stuff. May show a little rust, but good as gold on the inside.
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Barry
When you die you enter the same nothingness you were in before you were born. That state didn't inconvenience me in the slightest before I was born
and it won't after I am gone. The mental "energy" is organic activity in your brain and it dies when the brain dies. |
How can you make these statements with any certainty?
Your entire view on these matters is based on scientific evidence. Yet science never claims to know the truth. We label things as true because their
tests give consistent results. But the brain is poorly understood. We have no explanation for consciousness or the presence of a soul or even the
spiritual feeling you feel about evolution. Like the old mariner's maps during the time of Columnbus, this is terra icognito. Or like central africa
until Livingston.
Moreoever, truth can change with time. As time moves forward our understanding can change. It's my understanding that Newtonian physics was found to
not be the complete truth about matter by the 20th century.
So how can you say with any certainty that consciousness comes from nothing and goes back to nothing. You can say that because with the present
knowledge we have no explanation.
If the best that science can do to explain BajaGringo's near death experiences is that neurotransmission occured in certain parts of the brain in a
certain order then we really have a long way to go. Don't you think?
If the theists can be criticized for claiming to know the absolute truth through a book then it seems to me that scientists can be criticized for
claiming truth based upon temporal data.
[Edited on 6-13-2012 by Skipjack Joe]
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