I just watched on the Net the 43 min. presentation by Stephen Hawkin's "Does God exist?" (or something like that)--------------I watched it very
closely---------------I listened intently-----------and I essentially have no idea what he was talking about! "Before the BIG BANG there was
NOTHING----------". Ahhhh, ok (I guess), he did say it, but I cannot get my head around THAT!!!
We have a problem here. If we don't understand it, how can we cynical-types ever come to accept it? The "God thing"
is easier to accept than -------NOTHING--------it seems to me.
But then who am I to argue with Stephen Hawkin, and even larger, who can argue with -------NOTHING???????? (no time, no space, no
energy---------NOTHING)
Well consider this, isn't it all about a persons comfort zone. If a person is comfortable being religious, or comfortable being an atheist, or
Buddist that should suffice. All this discussion about where we came from or where we will end up in the end nobody I mean nobody knows, just accept
it.
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
Maybe more familiar to you...
It is stated as a "So Ken, when did you stop beating your wife"?
The question implies you are a wife beater, much as the question to me implied I believe in 'the supernatural'.
This is a form of 'baiting' the respondent. It perhaps was more recognizable to some than others, so I pointed this tactic out. It was easily
recognizable to me from my studies and expriance in debate form as the tactic it is. Just as my level of dialect is conducive to respecting those I
debate with, in my other experiances, although perhaps not on this forum.
So Comitan...not knowing something yet basing a conclusion on an observable condition and drawing a hypothesis from it, cannot allow one to infer that
it is a possibillity? Then to apply that possibillity to an active state takes faith that it benefits the application.
If not, then what is faith? Exactly the basis of application of uncertainty to an action...sitting in a chair requires some faith based on an
observable condition called familiarity (with the previous observance of integrity in the material and design)
I DONT REALLY KNOW HOW TO STATE THAT IN ANY OTHER WAY EXCUSE MY WORDINESS!
I did not watch "The Endless Story" when I was young (or ever), but I was in heaven watching "The Endless Summer" in Mission Beach in the mid-'50's
when it first came out---------to me, that was the film to end all films, and everything has been going downhill since. THAT was our personal BIG
BANG, and believe me there was no "nothingness" about THAT!! THAT was very real!!!!
(but I don't discount the theory of the "real" BIG BANG, just don't understand it very well------it was the "quantum physics" that did me in-----a
math thing) (now as for the "NOTHING"---------that I have real problems with------who wants to comtemplate NOTHING??)
Mid 50's? Are you talking about the epic surfing the world film?
The Endless Summer is a seminal 1966 surf movie.
Director Bruce Brown follows two surfers, Mike Hynson and Robert August, on a surfing trip around the world. Despite the balmy climate of their native
California, cold ocean currents make local beaches inhospitable during the winter. They travel to the coasts of Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Tahiti
and Hawaii in a quest for new surf spots and introduce locals to the sport. Other important surfers of the time, such as Miki Dora, Eugene Harris,
Phil Edwards and Butch Van Artsdalen, also appear.
Comitan has no faith in the unknown, if a person wants to conjecture what may be, that's no problem for me. I derive comfort in who I am how I have
lived my life, how I have treated other people (I've lived be the golden rule)(tried) This because of the way I am, not in preparation for something
in the possible afterlife. Now you know!!!!!!
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
Originally posted by paranewbi
So Comitan...not knowing something yet basing a conclusion on an observable condition and drawing a hypothesis from it, cannot allow one to infer that
it is a possibillity? Then to apply that possibillity to an active state takes faith that it benefits the application.
If not, then what is faith? Exactly the basis of application of uncertainty to an action...sitting in a chair requires some faith based on an
observable condition called familiarity (with the previous observance of integrity in the material and design)
I DONT REALLY KNOW HOW TO STATE THAT IN ANY OTHER WAY EXCUSE MY WORDINESS!
A.W. Tozer said it best:
"Faith is being sure of what we hope for,
and certain of what we do not see"
Hard to argue with that, and that is what I live by,
and quite nicely, too, I might add.
Originally posted by David K
Mid 50's? Are you talking about the epic surfing the world film?
The Endless Summer is a seminal 1966 surf movie.
Director Bruce Brown follows two surfers, Mike Hynson and Robert August, on a surfing trip around the world. Despite the balmy climate of their native
California, cold ocean currents make local beaches inhospitable during the winter. They travel to the coasts of Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Tahiti
and Hawaii in a quest for new surf spots and introduce locals to the sport. Other important surfers of the time, such as Miki Dora, Eugene Harris,
Phil Edwards and Butch Van Artsdalen, also appear.
[Edited on 6-13-2012 by David K]
Hmmmmmmmm, 1966 eh??? Well, David, things are a bit misty that far back in my brain--------wow, I thought I was over serious surfing by then (I was
27 in '66)--------guess not.
Originally posted by comitan
Comitan has no faith in the unknown, if a person wants to conjecture what may be, that's no problem for me. I derive comfort in who I am how I have
lived my life, how I have treated other people (I've lived be the golden rule)(tried) This because of the way I am, not in preparation for something
in the possible afterlife. Now you know!!!!!!
And having observed your statement I have a degree of faith that you shall continue doing just that. Or shouldn't I?
Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Harris' latest book "Free Will" makes a compelling case that there is no such thing as free will. David Eagleman, in his book "Incognito", approaches
it from a somewhat different direction but comes to the same conclusion. As to "souls", no, there is no such thing. We are our physical bodies, no
more, no less. I am completely comfortable with that.
[Edited on 6-13-2012 by Ken Bondy]
My old friend Myron Smith was at a lecture by Huston Smith years ago...Huston used the word soul several times before Myron spoke up and said
----isn't "spirit" a better way to describe it, since spirit conveys the sense of omnipresence that we would all go back to after death?
BTW Ken---have you ever read the Tibetan Book of the Dead?
Originally posted by comitan
Well consider this, isn't it all about a persons comfort zone. If a person is comfortable being religious, or comfortable being an atheist, or
Buddist that should suffice. All this discussion about where we came from or where we will end up in the end nobody I mean nobody knows, just accept
it.
You raise a good point here comitan. Religious belief does not require proof.
I think we have had a pretty good discussion between atheists and theists, from the West and the East. We have heard little from the agnostic
perspective, the point of view that none of this is knowable. You have expressed that perspective in your post.
I have said in a prior post that Theists and Atheists are all theists in the sense that they are adamantly in the ground of theism. The Agnostic says
that these are unanswerable questions, that there is no way of knowing, A-gnosis, not knowing.
I believe that some of us are raised with religion or have some sort of conversion experience then have to deal with this in some way and there are a
limited number of ways of integrating this. One way is dualism, God above/Man below and an a chasm that man tries to resolve by baptism, faith,
belief, the Haj, good works denunciation of the body etc. To the non - dualist Man is part of an entire field and as part of it all there is no chasm
between God/Man, as they exist in a field of consciousness, there is no heaven and hell, other than perhaps that which we create here on earth.
The agnostic is one who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God or who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not
profess true atheism because of their belief that there is no knowing.
These are the main ways that people experience this field of religion and religious thought.
To the agnostic discussions like this are nonsense and they believe that there is no way of knowing or answering these questions.
I appreciate the perspectives of all who have posted here. Your posts have offered us a way to learn more about this age old dilemma for humans which
Norman O Brown so eloquently called a god that chits.
The person who has had a "true conversion experience" or has known since their youth that there is a god and sees evidence of it in their lives will
not be convinced by logic to change their deeply held beliefs. To the atheist, who uses logic and science to inform their thinking, the idea of
forming a conclusion based solely on a man written text that says it is the truth without any tangible, provable evidence to back up the claim, which
is seen as circular arguing, and is self contradictory flies in the face of their conclusion about how the world really works.
I am proud of Nomads for giving this topic a comprehensive airing. There is of course no resolution to these issues, we can only read and hopefully
learn from our dialogue and appreciate the depth of sincerity and power of the emotions that underlie these perspectives. I appreciate the civility of
the dialogue and the range of viewpoints expressed here. It is very hard to discuss this topic with out very profound feelings and indeed wounds
emerging.
To some religious belief is the underpinning of their lives, it gives purpose and meaning to their lives, it helps them understand why they are on
this earth and how they are to comport themselves while here and they point to the good that religion has done for them and for mankind. Others have
been abused in the name of religion and have equally powerful experiences of the harm that can be done in the name of religion and cite the horrible
atrocities committed in the name of religion. These powerful experiences engender strong feelings and it is hard to remain civil and rational when
ones fundamental knowing is challenged.
Thanks comitan for sharing the agnostic perspective and I believe you are right in counseling acceptance of these differing perspectives, we all do
after all inhabit this forum, share our love of baja, and share this planet together.
"If it were lush and rich, one could understand the pull, but it is fierce and hostile and sullen.
The stone mountains pile up to the sky and there is little fresh water. But we know we must go back
if we live, and we don't know why." - Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." - Theodore Roosevelt
"You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them or to them." - Malcolm Forbes
"Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others
cry over small hurts, but not you. Let others leave their future in someone else's hands, but not you." - Jim Rohn
"The best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer." - Cunningham's Law
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