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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by IflyfishYou raise a good point here comitan. Religious belief does not require proof.
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Religious belief requires the absence of proof, by definition. Religious belief requires faith, and faith is belief without evidence.
carpe diem!
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by MexitronBTW Ken---have you ever read the Tibetan Book of the Dead? |
I have not, Mexitron. Tell me a bit about it.
carpe diem!
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thebajarunner
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Ken, you are correct
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by IflyfishYou raise a good point here comitan. Religious belief does not require proof.
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Religious belief requires the absence of proof, by definition. Religious belief requires faith, and faith is belief without evidence.
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Didn't I just post that?
It sort of got lost in the "stuff" that followed
A.W. Tozer said it best:
"Faith is being sure of what we hope for,
and certain of what we do not see"
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by IflyfishYou raise a good point here comitan. Religious belief does not require proof.
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Religious belief requires the absence of proof, by definition. Religious belief requires faith, and faith is belief without evidence.
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Wasn't it William James who claimed that religion and science have faith in common. Every scientific conclusion requires a faith in it's truth just
like religion. Without faith it's just data.
But, I am more interested in something else, Ken.
Why did you choose atheism over agnosticism?
I have an idea but would be interested in your decision process.
[Edited on 6-14-2012 by Skipjack Joe]
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack JoeBut, I am more interested in something else, Ken.
Why did you choose atheism over agnosticism?
I have an idea but would be interested in your decision process.
[Edited on 6-14-2012 by Skipjack Joe] |
Igor I guess it may have started as agnosticism (doubt) when I was a kid, but it changed to atheism when I realized that if something is proclaimed to
be true for centuries, but has not a shred of evidence for being true, it is most likely false. So atheism is the most rational answer to the
question of god's existence.
carpe diem!
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack JoeBut, I am more interested in something else, Ken.
Why did you choose atheism over agnosticism?
I have an idea but would be interested in your decision process.
[Edited on 6-14-2012 by Skipjack Joe] |
Igor it may have started briefly as agnosticism (doubt) when I was a kid, but it changed to atheism when I realized that if something is proclaimed to
be true for centuries, but has not a shred of evidence for being true, it is most likely false. So atheism is the most rational answer to the
question of god's existence. |
Igor permit me to expand on that a bit. The world behaves pretty much as you would expect it to behave without the existence of some supernatural
"god" who influences it. Objects and materials, including biological materials and living organisms, behave in accordance with natural laws which are
discoverable, understandable, and reproducible. We continue to learn more and more about those natural laws and they continue to explain more and
more about the things we see in the world and in the universe, leaving less and less need for centuries-old religious mythology to explain anything.
Religion, and belief in supernatural gods, resides in that ever-shrinking part of existence which has not yet been explained by science. The world
contains great beauty, great ugliness, great compassion, and great cruelty. None of what happens in the world seems to be guided by any supernatural
force, particularly one that is loving, intelligent, or benevolent. If there is some supernatural "higher power" out there it either does not care or
it is impotent. Thus I have no doubts about the existence of any supernatural "gods"; in my opinion they simply don't exist. There is no room for
doubt.
carpe diem!
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Skipjack Joe
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If you're so sure, Ken, why did you write this. This doesn't sound like someone who believes in nothingness. This sounds like the rest of us - a man
who isn't sure.
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To Jim Bailey...
Where are you old friend?
Now that you know the answer to the unanswerable question, where are you?
Are you out at the edge of the universe, having a close look at the stars we used to see... Lying on our backs in the sand, late at night...
On a Baja beach?
Or are you on short final to one six right at Van Nuys?
Or on top, southwest bound at nine point five?
Or feeling the smooth surface of the throttles in three zero sierra delta, that old plane we loved? Are you tipping one with old Mike at that little
corner bar at 94th?
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Iflyfish
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| Quote: | Originally posted by paranewbi
So Comitan...not knowing something yet basing a conclusion on an observable condition and drawing a hypothesis from it, cannot allow one to infer that
it is a possibillity? Then to apply that possibillity to an active state takes faith that it benefits the application.
If not, then what is faith? Exactly the basis of application of uncertainty to an action...sitting in a chair requires some faith based on an
observable condition called familiarity (with the previous observance of integrity in the material and design)
I DONT REALLY KNOW HOW TO STATE THAT IN ANY OTHER WAY EXCUSE MY WORDINESS! 
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Brilliant!! I love how you dance thru this stuff. You have a very facile mind indeed. I think that Ken and others in some ways diminishes your
rhetorical skill by saying that your logic is circular. Here it it tangential and really impressive, I mean it!! It is this very obfuscation that I
believe holds perishers glued to their seats on Sunday mornings while I beat them to the Sunday Brunch. When I learned the art of Hypnosis my mentor
told me that we all get hypnotized, we should just be careful who we choose to do the job.
comitan posited that you cannot know the truth about the existence of god. (Correct me if I am wrong comitan)
“All this discussion about where we came from or where we will end up in the end nobody I mean nobody knows, just accept it.”
To which you respond:
“I concur, and the end result is that knowing that no one can know as you put it, faith intercedes.
Comitan responds:
“paranewby. no you didn't concur, you added faith intercedes, sir it ends with not knowing accept that or you don't concur!!!”
You wrote in response:
"So Comitan...not knowing something yet basing a conclusion on an observable condition and drawing a hypothesis from it, cannot allow one to infer
that it is a possibillity? Then to apply that possibillity to an active state takes faith that it benefits the application."
comitan's position: “I mean nobody knows” (about whether god exists or not”* my summary.)
Your rebuttal: “not knowing something yet basing a conclusion on an observable condition and drawing a hypothesis from it, cannot allow one to infer
that it is a possibillity? Then to apply that possibillity to an active state takes faith that it benefits the application."
My analysis of your rebuttal:
There is no observable condition that one could call god, soul, spirit etc. An Agnostic does not refute the existence of god, he/she just posits that
this is unknowable. It is not a matter of faith to say that which is unobservable is unknowable, it is a statement about the ephemeral and
unquantifiable nature of those “things” called “soul”, “spirit” or “god”. We have linear accelerators, to validate our hypothesis that sub atomic
particles exist. There is no linear accelerator for the soul, spirit, angels or god though some have postulated that there must be a biological soul
that exists in the heart or more lately the brain, yet none has been found.
You provide a rhetorically beautiful refutation even though it is fallacious. I think that Ken and others have discounted your great skills, which I
admire. Really, I do admire your rhetorical skill though I think your soundest argument rests with a hypothesis that one only knows the existence of
god thru experience of his/her presence. This argument is very hard to refute. I think you should stay on more solid ground with the atheists and
agnostics.
I very much appreciate your sharing your perspective and hanging in with this discussion, I think that there is much to learn and you are providing a
very powerful advocacy for theism. I appreciate your doing so. I realize that it is a daunting task given that it is primarily the atheists who have
been taking you on. Now you have an Agnostic to deal with. Big agenda and in my view you are holding up well in the fray. I for one would love to pop
a Tecate or Pacifico with you one day over the evening camp fire!
Iflyfish
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Mexitron
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | | Originally posted by MexitronBTW Ken---have you ever read the Tibetan Book of the Dead? |
I have not, Mexitron. Tell me a bit about it. |
An ancient text that goes through the phases of consciousness from death to the next rebirth..........a b-tch to read but intriguing what the Tibetans
have accomplished in this arena. So this would be in support of something besides non-existence after we die. I guess I put some weight on what the
Tibetans say although to call it truth I would have to witness it and the only intuition in the reincarnation realm that I could even hazard a guess
to would be a cat I had years ago---but he wasn't telling!  To complicate
matters, as I interpret reincarnation its a rebirth of your desires, not your present day self. Like a wave through water, as it were. Anyway, its
interesting information to cogitate.
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Osprey
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Flyguy, you have an uncanny knack of taking ugly little pieces of disparate jawjacking and bringing them together to form a teddy bear of an idea
built by people who can't agree on the day of the week.
Please allow me to keep my long held hatreds and bias against some of your campfire buddies on the board (I'd rather have a nightcap with John Wayne
Gacy than a share a Pacifico with some of them).
I spend a lot of time unbundling while you are bringing all this palaver to a convenient accord about some things talked about at this here
marshmallow roast.
Here's a sample of my need for separation.
United, International, Amalgamated League and Cooperative
When I see and hear the “talking heads” on CNN and other news services using the phrase International Community I wonder who they’re talking about.
Is it a small neighborhood like the Olympic Villages? Maybe they don’t mean a place, exactly, maybe just some countries with identical goals. Then I
get lost again because I can’t really conceive a situation where Gambia and Portugal could be in accord about anything.
United Nations strikes another chord of disharmony. Nations do not unite; they draw up temporary pacts to start or prevent wars. It is only with the
greatest of difficulty that individual states can agree to sign on to alliances to form Countries. The ink on the document is usually still wet when
the states begin to bicker about their differences with each other and with the alliance.
How about other communities? What about the Scientific Community? The Scientific Community must be the city of Prague or Antwerp or perhaps
Alamogordo. If it is not a place, then I submit it does not exist – there can never be unanimity between sciences; the very thought is a
non-sequitur.
What of talk about United Nations, Scientific Community, Global Warming? May I please tie Global to International? May I take the opportunity to
infer that it might be very difficult for people to agree on things they don’t understand or things that are in a state of uncertain flux? (I almost
wrote {Can we agree that……} but I caught myself just in time.)
Thanks to the Computer Age we now have lots of data. That means we have a lot more things about which we can develop independent thought – a lot more
things we can disagree about. There is no end to how disagreeable we can be now that we have all this unbundled data. Why, I’m beginning to have
doubts about tons of things I thought were rock solid; words like indisputable and immutable crumble in my mouth when I think of the many ways I could
disagree about the premise, whatever it might be.
It is only now that I begin to have the utmost admiration for my old uncle Earl. I thought he was crazy as a loon when I saw him following animals
around for no apparent reason. Now I see that he could look into our data filled, dubious future; that he felt the need to find exactitude in a world
of murky uncertainty – now I know why he followed the bear into the woods – so he could say, without fear of contradiction, just where it had shat in
the buckwheat.
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Ken Bondy
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Posts: 3326
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Mood: Mellow
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
If you're so sure, Ken, why did you write this. This doesn't sound like someone who believes in nothingness. This sounds like the rest of us - a man
who isn't sure.
| Quote: |
To Jim Bailey...
Where are you old friend?
Now that you know the answer to the unanswerable question, where are you?
Are you out at the edge of the universe, having a close look at the stars we used to see... Lying on our backs in the sand, late at night...
On a Baja beach?
Or are you on short final to one six right at Van Nuys?
Or on top, southwest bound at nine point five?
Or feeling the smooth surface of the throttles in three zero sierra delta, that old plane we loved? Are you tipping one with old Mike at that little
corner bar at 94th?
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Igor that was poetry, a tribute to a dear friend. I didn't really think that Jim was off checking out the stars at the edge of the universe; but it
was nice to remember that we had often done that together lying in the sand late at night at San Francisquito. I was simply remembering things, in
prose, that we had done when he was alive. I wasn't unsure in the slightest about the existence of gods and afterlives when I wrote that. I'll
acknowledge a little wishful thinking....it would be nice to think that the things I wrote about Jim were really happening but I knew they were not.
carpe diem!
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comitan
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Rick
Very well said.
Thank you.
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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Iflyfish
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| Quote: | Originally posted by comitan
Rick
Very well said.
Thank you. [/quote
You said it with fewer words. I tend toward verbosity. You are welcome.
Iflyfish |
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Skipjack Joe
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Posts: 8084
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Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by thebajarunner
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Removing image.
Nothing to do with bajarunner. A man that has contributed nothing to this thread. Seldom does.
[Edited on 6-14-2012 by Skipjack Joe] |
Just getting you to remove that raunchy and juvenile (or was it juvenile and raunchy??) pic was a big step up....
Too bad it had to get to that level IMO |
You flatter yourself (not the first time).
Read the above post. I logged in to remove the image (primarily because it was a 'negative' hijack) and came across your remark. And if you don't
believe that then we have little to talk about. Which is my preference, actually.
This is my last post on this matter. I'm not going to let your personal attacks derail what has been a good informative thread so far.
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Iflyfish
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Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
Flyguy, you have an uncanny knack of taking ugly little pieces of disparate jawjacking and bringing them together to form a teddy bear of an idea
built by people who can't agree on the day of the week.
Please allow me to keep my long held hatreds and bias against some of your campfire buddies on the board (I'd rather have a nightcap with John Wayne
Gacy than a share a Pacifico with some of them).
I spend a lot of time unbundling while you are bringing all this palaver to a convenient accord about some things talked about at this here
marshmallow roast.
Here's a sample of my need for separation.
United, International, Amalgamated League and Cooperative
When I see and hear the “talking heads” on CNN and other news services using the phrase International Community I wonder who they’re talking about.
Is it a small neighborhood like the Olympic Villages? Maybe they don’t mean a place, exactly, maybe just some countries with identical goals. Then I
get lost again because I can’t really conceive a situation where Gambia and Portugal could be in accord about anything.
United Nations strikes another chord of disharmony. Nations do not unite; they draw up temporary pacts to start or prevent wars. It is only with the
greatest of difficulty that individual states can agree to sign on to alliances to form Countries. The ink on the document is usually still wet when
the states begin to bicker about their differences with each other and with the alliance.
How about other communities? What about the Scientific Community? The Scientific Community must be the city of Prague or Antwerp or perhaps
Alamogordo. If it is not a place, then I submit it does not exist – there can never be unanimity between sciences; the very thought is a
non-sequitur.
What of talk about United Nations, Scientific Community, Global Warming? May I please tie Global to International? May I take the opportunity to
infer that it might be very difficult for people to agree on things they don’t understand or things that are in a state of uncertain flux? (I almost
wrote {Can we agree that……} but I caught myself just in time.)
Thanks to the Computer Age we now have lots of data. That means we have a lot more things about which we can develop independent thought – a lot more
things we can disagree about. There is no end to how disagreeable we can be now that we have all this unbundled data. Why, I’m beginning to have
doubts about tons of things I thought were rock solid; words like indisputable and immutable crumble in my mouth when I think of the many ways I could
disagree about the premise, whatever it might be.
It is only now that I begin to have the utmost admiration for my old uncle Earl. I thought he was crazy as a loon when I saw him following animals
around for no apparent reason. Now I see that he could look into our data filled, dubious future; that he felt the need to find exactitude in a world
of murky uncertainty – now I know why he followed the bear into the woods – so he could say, without fear of contradiction, just where it had shat in
the buckwheat. |
Thanks for the tilt of the hat to my attempts at diplomacy. I suspect it comes from both my family of origin issues as well as years on the job.
There is a place for diplomacy in the world, for people who carry a lexicon rather than a rifle. I mostly carry words though would never enter a bar
fight armed solely with a bible concordance or dictionary. Like most guys I enjoy the occasional good scrap. I am getting a bit old for fisticuffs but
have had my share of them in my youth.
I have used my rhetorical skills to get our of far more fights than I ever engaged in. I have only lost one pair of glasses to fisticuffs and learned
quickly to set them down before engaging in the sweet science. I never felt good after a donnybrook as I hate both blood and pain. I readily admit to
cowardliness and of course my recourse to the various ruses of linguistic acrobatics may be mostly due to that yellow streak that I occasionally see
on my back reflected in the mirror after the morning shower.
You are right in challenging my use of the term community as it is indeed as my Anthropologist brother calls it "an ode to fictive relationships".
This is not to say that fictive relationships are not important, they are indeed very important, as they can form the basis of a shared identity i.e.
the errant uncle who is related to both of us who obtained some sort of fame in service of Her Majesty and therefore adds to our stature via
association and relation to him, though we may not have indeed ever met him.
I have resorted to such devices in an apparently opaque ruse to attempt to retain civility in this dialogue. I am afraid that in this case one can
like Dorothy clearly see the man behind the curtain.
So it's ok with me Osprey if you maintain your antipathy toward those who you abhor and John Wayne Gacy in my view would make a much better dinner
companion than Jeffery Dahmer, who's taste was so bad he only had one single condiment in his larder and that was Heinz 57. Speaking of Heinz 57, I
would say that this board is somewhat like Heinz 57, lots of tastes in that bottle.
Iflyfish
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Skipjack Joe
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Location: Bahia Asuncion
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Has anyone changed their views on this matter at all? If not, why not?
I've been chewing on Harris' lecture on the absence of free will for several days now. Have to admit I don't like the taste of it. But ..... I suppose
it's important to know what our foremost thinkers think.
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oxxo
Banned
Posts: 2347
Registered: 5-17-2006
Location: Wherever I am, I'm there
Member Is Offline
Mood: If I was feeling any better, I'd be twins!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
after the morning shower. |
By your leave and pray tell, can you expound on the Zen of the morning shower versus the night shower in terms of the metaphysical? (Sorry, I'm
reading the Patrick O'Brian anthology which has transported me bodily via transubstanciation back to early19th Century England. Forsooth, it is
possible that I fancy myself the reincarnation of Capt. Jack Aubrey.)
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Has anyone changed their views on this matter at all? If not, why not?
I've been chewing on Harris' lecture on the absence of free will for several days now. Have to admit I don't like the taste of it. But ..... I suppose
it's important to know what our foremost thinkers think. |
I am still an Agnostic------mostly because I really don't care either way as it does not effect my life on a daily basis. It IS all interesting
stuff, and fun to hear what others think, tho. Which ever "group" produced the "golden rules" is the one I owe thanks too.
Barry
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13048
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
You are right in challenging my use of the term community as it is indeed as my Anthropologist brother calls it "an ode to fictive relationships".
This is not to say that fictive relationships are not important, they are indeed very Iflyfish |
exactly this topic has been tickling my mind the last few days... my fictive relationships with nomads... how rich and rewarding some are and how
destructive and damaging others have been.
I suppose I'm still a loosey goosey at the end of the day.
as Skipjack mentioned there has been all kids of food for thought in this thread...I'm really enjoying it....now about that soul....maybe best
discussed over a real campfire.
[Edited on 6-14-2012 by shari]
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Skipjack Joe
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It's interesting how people get so concerned, emotional, and so worked up about global warming and yet remain far less interested in their eternal
future. I guess because (a) it's unknowable and (b) you can't do anything about it anway.
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