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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Has anyone changed their views on this matter at all? If not, why not?
I've been chewing on Harris' lecture on the absence of free will for several days now. Have to admit I don't like the taste of it. But ..... I suppose
it's important to know what our foremost thinkers think. |
Is solidifying ones views a change? Is learning more a change? Is understanding more a change? Is getting a bigger picture a change? If so then I
have been washed in the waters of intelligent dialogue, as opposed to intelligent design, and have renewed faith in the intelligence, experience,
humor and thoughtfulness of many of my fellow Nomads. The topics must be significant enough for this thread to have received over 10,000 hits, that's
a lot of reading!!
If I indeed have the free will to make a choice, and I suspect that I do, since I decided to learn touch typing, I have chosen to stay open on the
topic of free will. I have not watched the lecture that you have watched, not yet at least, though it is bookmarked. I have watched rats in Skinner
boxes hit levers to receive both food and electric stimulation of their brains pleasure centers. I have also watched mice to go one way in a maze and
not the other, which sure looks to me like choice. But I am open to a change in my perspective.
Iflyfish
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
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Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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It's all good! Who know's? This subject has been debated for hundreds of years, fought over by millions and there's no end in sight! The mystery of
life, death, and the great unknown! The Torah? The Bible? The Koran? Hindus? Buddists? Fill-in-the-blank? As long as they're not imposing their belief
system on me, they can believe whatever they want. 
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
You are right in challenging my use of the term community as it is indeed as my Anthropologist brother calls it "an ode to fictive relationships".
This is not to say that fictive relationships are not important, they are indeed very Iflyfish |
exactly this topic has been tickling my mind the last few days... my fictive relationships with nomads... how rich and rewarding some are and how
destructive and damaging others have been.
I suppose I'm still a loosey goosey at the end of the day.
as Skipjack mentioned there has been all kids of food for thought in this thread...I'm really enjoying it....now about that soul....maybe best
discussed over a real campfire.
[Edited on 6-14-2012 by shari] |
Put me in coach! I'm not too good at starting camp fires but the smoke seems to seek me out and I provide a great chimney. I also like scary stories
around the fire.....ever seen Grim Prairie Tales?
Iflyfish
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
It's interesting how people get so concerned, emotional, and so worked up about global warming and yet remain far less interested in their eternal
future. I guess because (a) it's unknowable and (b) you can't do anything about it anway. |
Good thought and I agree with your conclusion. It is all quite a mystery with many different ways to search for truth and/or spirituality as
demonstrated in this thread. Is there an eternal future, for me is still a question and is what it is --- a mystery. I believe in the search as
something that will last a lifetime.
On the other hand, something like global warming is a tangible subject.
[Edited on 6-14-2012 by DianaT]
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
It's all good! Who know's? This subject has been debated for hundreds of years, fought over by millions and there's no end in sight! The mystery of
life, death, and the great unknown! The Torah? The Bible? The Koran? Hindus? Buddists? Fill-in-the-blank? As long as they're not imposing their belief
system on me, they can believe whatever they want. |
"they can believe whatever they want."
That raises the question, do they have to believe what ever they want? Or maybe this is under the heading "Predestination" or "Free Will"?
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oxxo
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
after the morning shower. |
By your leave and pray tell, can you expound on the Zen of the morning shower versus the night shower in terms of the metaphysical? (Sorry, I'm
reading the Patrick O'Brian anthology which has transported me bodily via transubstanciation back to early19th Century England. Forsooth, it is
possible that I fancy myself the reincarnation of Capt. Jack Aubrey.) |
" can you expound on the Zen of the morning shower versus the night shower in terms of the metaphysical?"
Have you had your lunch??? Go wash your bowl.
As to Capt. Jack, I too have had what appeared to be hallucinations after too much Capt. Jack. Take it easy on the stuff.
Iflyfishswayingtothecaptjack
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
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Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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Global warming?  That's a subject for debate with some solid "evidence". Pro?
Con? How 'bout Voodoo?
[Edited on 6/14/2012 by Cypress]
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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One More Thing before this closes
Goodman
Somewhere in the world there is a man of virtue. To remind you he is hypothetical I will call him Goodman.
Goodman was born in Asia, grew up in a small house with two parents and two siblings. He went to school, learned his letters, found a trade, now
raises his own family.
Goodman is only remarkable because he never found religion. His life has been ordinary (for the region and the time) but those who know him say he
shines as a beacon in the night as one who lives in a virtuous way. That is to say that his humanity is grand and visible – that he is giving,
caring, always helping his fellow man while seeking no personal gain, wealth, fame or fortune. He is without guile or hubris; in all of his life he
has not displayed attributes one could relate to the sins of religious doctrine.
Those devout followers of religions doubt such a man exists. They say that his Goodness could only be achieved by receiving some divine energy,
guidance or association with formal religion. I will be his witness. He has never read a holy book, attended any religious service, joined others to
pray, taken any vow, celebrated any rite of passage.
In Asia he is widely known. He has lived more than 80 years. Goodman does not fear death; he knows his time is near. He says his one and only
regret is that he can stay no longer to help others. He has secretly hired two responsible young men from a nearby village to come to his home when
they learn he has died, spirit his corpse away to a secluded place, build a huge fire and burn his body.
Millions pray for him. They pray that when he dies he will somehow, miraculously be permitted to enter, for time eternal, their various Nirvanas,
Valhallas, Heavens --- that some divine intervention will take place opening the Holy Portal without his former knowledge of, devotion to their
particular God or doctrine or deity. Millions of others scoff at those who pray, mock the very notion of a man without religion being admitted to
Heaven. There are those who believe his Godlessness, a lack of devotion to their particular God, makes him a sinner no matter how he lived his life.
His family is beginning to fear the millions of Literalists who are passionate and unpredictable. They are the ones who damn Goodman for failure to
follow the literal dogma of the core of their religion; arcane sacrificial offerings, the beating of his wife and children, self-mutilation,
self-flagellation, purgings and crusades, wars and exorcisms, pogroms and inquisitions. Some Literalists acquiesce to the notion that Goodman had no
knowledge of sacred text and testimony and for that reason his family should not be harmed.
What of his mortal body? What should be done with that? What about his funeral? He admits he is Godless; perhaps something should be done to see
that his remains never enter a sacred place. Perhaps they should be disposed of completely as though he had never lived. Is there not some hidden
danger here that he could be martyred? How powerful might be a force, a group that rallies behind a Godless hero? Is it not possible that there are
those who might invent a new God to explain his holy behavior? His goodness could make a mockery of those who are overflowing with piety but lack
decency and good will.
Has no one investigated this man? A single failing might be discovered to mollify the Literalists, to place him firmly with unholy agnostics and
infidels whose sins and atrocities are daily visible in Asia.
Goodman died in the middle of the night. When his hirelings came to his house they found it empty. The whereabouts of his corpse is a mystery that
will last through the ages. His family has vanished like the wind.
Now there is rumor of another Goodman in a town to the south. While there remains great unrest across the land the people have hope that this new one
is merely a pretender. Strangely the streets are full of people; the mosques, churches and temples are not.
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woody with a view
PITA Nomad
Posts: 15939
Registered: 11-8-2004
Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
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Mood: Everchangin'
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check back in three days, Osprey. maybe Goodman will rise.....
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jbcoug
Senior Nomad
Posts: 709
Registered: 9-24-2006
Location: Vancouver, WA
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Mood: Needing Baja!
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I arrived late to this shindig, but I am certainly glad I didn't miss it completely. The intelligent, civil sharing here has me begging for more in
other threads. Thank you all for sharing your beliefs and thoughts. There have been profound comments from every direction and I feel better able to
understand those around me regardless of thier beliefs.It never hurts to better understand where people are coming from. Thanks again.
John
\"The average dog is a nicer person than the average person.\" Andy Rooney
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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Osprey,
Your piece is just the sort of writing that Dostoyevsky was best at. You're on hallowed ground in my book.
There is a character in The Brothers Karamazov that remind me of Mr Goodman. I'm referring to the monk, Father Zosima. Father Zosima was known far and
wide as the closest thing to a saint the people had. Men came from miles around to for advice on living the good life. He was not a miracle worker,
however. He simply was a good man.
He was a very old man and eventually in the book he dies. Now, among russians a common belief is that if something is holy it will not decompose. My
elders would tell me that if you brought water from the church that had been blessed during easter service it would never grow fallow. They encouraged
me to test that.
And so the people waited. And sure enough within 3 days his body began to stink. You could smell it as you approached the building. There was great
turmoil, regret, and almost anger amongst the people who now understood that this was NOT a holy man.
---------------------------------------------------------
There are other many fine stories of this nature by Dostoyevsky. A really good one, perhaps the best is
The Dream of a Ridiculous (sometimes tranlated as Superfluous) Man
It's a story of a man who is about to commit suicide due to a senseless world without God and falls asleep from the tremendous pressure of the act. He
dreams he goes to another planet where there is nothing but goodness, a sort of garden of eden. I'[m not going to tell the rest. Short story. Maybe 80
pages.
[Edited on 6-15-2012 by Skipjack Joe]
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jbcoug
I arrived late to this shindig, but I am certainly glad I didn't miss it completely. The intelligent, civil sharing here has me begging for more in
other threads. Thank you all for sharing your beliefs and thoughts. There have been profound comments from every direction and I feel better able to
understand those around me regardless of thier beliefs.It never hurts to better understand where people are coming from. Thanks again.
John |
Thanks for throwing that log on the fire! I am glad to see that this thread has prompted some 12,000 hits, obviously the topic and dialogue has piqued
the interest of many who lurk as well as post.
I too appreciate a well rounded airing of a subject like this with so many fine minds, hearts, humor and experiences to share in this group. We can
all learn from this and I like you have a better understanding of different perspectives and that is in my view a very positive thing.
As you have so well said I too believe that there is inherent value in exploring ideas, learning, opening our minds to the perspectives of others.
This is very hard to do when people revert to hyperbole, rigid, catastrophic thinking and personal attacks. It is refreshing in this age of polarized
politics to be in the presence of adults who are able to deal with differences in a civil manner. My optimistic side hopes that one day we can as a
society return to this sort of dialogue in the public domain, along with the art of cooperation and compromise, skills that got us out of the caves.
I think that it is rare these days for young people to see and participate as adults carry on thoughtful, civil dialogue like this in public arenas
and I am pleased that to a large extent we have been able to accomplish this on this forum. Words and ideas matter as does modeling of productive
social interaction.
I believe that this last point brings us this discussion back full circle to where it started, with Skeet leaving over an issue of his feeling
betrayed by how his internet presence has been used for profit by Google, in his view by the moderator of this board. In my view the very human
feeling of betrayal underlies his decision and I believe that other Nomads have left this forum because of the caustic nature of some of the responses
to their posts. I hope that an additional value of this dialogue is to help us all realize that our words and how we present them matter.
Iflyfish
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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Mood: Skeptical
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Koan
After puzzling over this koan you have presented, I have realized that, metaphysically, it parallels the topic that has dominated this string; the
answer is unknown! ...and now I can get about my daily life in the physical. The Zen of it is: the time spent on days of contemplation was not wasted.
The brilliant, intricate, civil, engaging debate here has produced enlightenment, but alas...no conclusion.
Perhaps a tub rather than a shower was The Way.
Haiku:
The poet transcends
the wooden ladle scoops more water
Basho takes a bath-oh!
--Tony
| Quote: | Originally posted by oxxo
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
after the morning shower. |
By your leave and pray tell, can you expound on the Zen of the morning shower versus the night shower in terms of the metaphysical? (Sorry, I'm
reading the Patrick O'Brian anthology which has transported me bodily via transubstanciation back to early19th Century England. Forsooth, it is
possible that I fancy myself the reincarnation of Capt. Jack Aubrey.) |
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Cisco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4196
Registered: 12-30-2010
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
After puzzling over this koan you have presented, I have realized that, metaphysically, it parallels the topic that has dominated this string; the
answer is unknown! ...and now I can get about my daily life in the physical. The Zen of it is: the time spent on days of contemplation was not wasted.
The brilliant, intricate, civil, engaging debate here has produced enlightenment, but alas...no conclusion.
Perhaps a tub rather than a shower was The Way.
Haiku:
The poet transcends
the wooden ladle scoops more water
Basho takes a bath-oh!
--Tony
| Quote: | Originally posted by oxxo
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
after the morning shower. |
By your leave and pray tell, can you expound on the Zen of the morning shower versus the night shower in terms of the metaphysical? (Sorry, I'm
reading the Patrick O'Brian anthology which has transported me bodily via transubstanciation back to early19th Century England. Forsooth, it is
possible that I fancy myself the reincarnation of Capt. Jack Aubrey.) |
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Tony.
Try out "Why has Bodhi-Dharma left for the East?".
"Baraka" is another favorite of mine. Great beauty and not a spoken word.
Regards,
Cisco
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SFandH
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7084
Registered: 8-5-2011
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
There are other many fine stories of this nature by Dostoyevsky. A really good one, perhaps the best is
The Dream of a Ridiculous (sometimes tranlated as Superfluous) Man
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Found a copy and downloaded it. The files opens fine.
http://generation.feedbooks.com/book/2138.pdf
I love book suggestions. I come across books I never would have found otherwise.
[Edited on 6-15-2012 by SFandH]
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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Mood: Skeptical
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Thanks, Cisco!
I tried a free download for Bohdi but it wasn't successful. Maybe I will buy it from Amazon. I will also look for Baraka.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cisco
| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
After puzzling over this koan you have presented, I have realized that, metaphysically, it parallels the topic that has dominated this string; the
answer is unknown! ...and now I can get about my daily life in the physical. The Zen of it is: the time spent on days of contemplation was not wasted.
The brilliant, intricate, civil, engaging debate here has produced enlightenment, but alas...no conclusion.
Perhaps a tub rather than a shower was The Way.
Haiku:
The poet transcends
the wooden ladle scoops more water
Basho takes a bath-oh!
--Tony
| Quote: | Originally posted by oxxo
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
after the morning shower. |
By your leave and pray tell, can you expound on the Zen of the morning shower versus the night shower in terms of the metaphysical? (Sorry, I'm
reading the Patrick O'Brian anthology which has transported me bodily via transubstanciation back to early19th Century England. Forsooth, it is
possible that I fancy myself the reincarnation of Capt. Jack Aubrey.) |
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Tony.
Try out "Why has Bodhi-Dharma left for the East?".
"Baraka" is another favorite of mine. Great beauty and not a spoken word.
Regards,
Cisco |
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Cisco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4196
Registered: 12-30-2010
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
Thanks, Cisco!
I tried a free download for Bohdi but it wasn't successful. Maybe I will buy it from Amazon. I will also look for Baraka.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cisco
| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
After puzzling over this koan you have presented, I have realized that, metaphysically, it parallels the topic that has dominated this string; the
answer is unknown! ...and now I can get about my daily life in the physical. The Zen of it is: the time spent on days of contemplation was not wasted.
The brilliant, intricate, civil, engaging debate here has produced enlightenment, but alas...no conclusion.
Perhaps a tub rather than a shower was The Way.
Haiku:
The poet transcends
the wooden ladle scoops more water
Basho takes a bath-oh!
--Tony
| Quote: | Originally posted by oxxo
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
after the morning shower. |
By your leave and pray tell, can you expound on the Zen of the morning shower versus the night shower in terms of the metaphysical? (Sorry, I'm
reading the Patrick O'Brian anthology which has transported me bodily via transubstanciation back to early19th Century England. Forsooth, it is
possible that I fancy myself the reincarnation of Capt. Jack Aubrey.) |
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Tony.
Try out "Why has Bodhi-Dharma left for the East?".
"Baraka" is another favorite of mine. Great beauty and not a spoken word.
Regards,
Cisco |
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The Mountain View Library has copies of both Tony. Don't know about your particular library system or whether you may wish to rent (I don't know about
these things) and see if they are where you are.
They were important enough to me and I think they will be to you to invest in.
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oxxo
Banned
Posts: 2347
Registered: 5-17-2006
Location: Wherever I am, I'm there
Member Is Offline
Mood: If I was feeling any better, I'd be twins!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
After puzzling over this koan you have presented, I have realized that, metaphysically, it parallels the topic that has dominated this string; the
answer is unknown! |
OMZ, Tony, I think you are the only one who got the drift of my post. Good job amigo, here's to you. Salud.
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Paula
Super Nomad
Posts: 2219
Registered: 1-5-2006
Location: Loreto
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I've been away from home, following this thread on a different computer, and haven't a clue how to go about logging in, don't know my password, so
I've been silent here.
I guess I could thank God(dess) for that because I probably would have made posts I would come to regret.
But this won't work for me as I am a pretty firm non-believer.
So I would stand squarely in Ken's corner if this were a fight, but it has actually been an interesting discussion.
So Ken, I'll just say that I agree with you wholeheartedly, and I admire your clarity and steadfastness, and your sunny good nature.
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by SFandH
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
There are other many fine stories of this nature by Dostoyevsky. A really good one, perhaps the best is
The Dream of a Ridiculous (sometimes tranlated as Superfluous) Man
|
Found a copy and downloaded it. The files opens fine.
http://generation.feedbooks.com/book/2138.pdf
I love book suggestions. I come across books I never would have found otherwise.
[Edited on 6-15-2012 by SFandH] |
Excelloent! Just read it again. It was only 20 pages long. Glad I didn't have to slog through my russian copy.
The following is the first part of chapter 5, the downfall. It addresses much of what we talked about :
Yes, yes, it ended in my corrupting them all! How it could come to pass I
do not know, but I remember it clearly. The dream embraced thousands
of years and left in me only a sense of the whole. I only know that I was
the cause of their sin and downfall. Like a vile trichina, like a germ of the
plague infecting whole kingdoms, so I contaminated all this earth, so
happy and sinless before my coming. They learnt to lie, grew fond of lying,
and discovered the charm of falsehood. Oh, at first perhaps it began
innocently, with a jest, coquetry, with amorous play, perhaps indeed
with a germ, but that germ of falsity made its way into their hearts and
pleased them. Then sensuality was soon begotten, sensuality begot jealousy,
jealousy — cruelty … Oh, I don't know, I don't remember; but
soon, very soon the first blood was shed. They marvelled and were horrified,
and began to be split up and divided. They formed into unions, but
it was against one another. Reproaches, upbraidings followed. They
came to know shame, and shame brought them to virtue. The conception
of honour sprang up, and every union began waving its flags. They
began torturing animals, and the animals withdrew from them into the
forests and became hostile to them. They began to struggle for separation,
for isolation, for individuality, for mine and thine. They began to
talk in different languages. They became acquainted with sorrow and
loved sorrow; they thirsted for suffering, and said that truth could only
be attained through suffering. Then science appeared. As they became
wicked they began talking of brotherhood and humanitarianism, and
understood those ideas. As they became criminal, they invented justice
and drew up whole legal codes in order to observe it, and to ensure their
being kept, set up a guillotine. They hardly remembered what they had
lost, in fact refused to believe that they had ever been happy and innocent.
They even laughed at the possibility of this happiness in the past,
and called it a dream. They could not even imagine it in definite form
and shape, but, strange and wonderful to relate, though they lost all faith
in their past happiness and called it a legend, they so longed to be happy
and innocent once more that they succumbed to this desire like children, made an idol of it, set up temples and worshipped their own idea, their
own desire; though at the same time they fully believed that it was unattainable
and could not be realised, yet they bowed down to it and adored
it with tears! Nevertheless, if it could have happened that they had returned
to the innocent and happy condition which they had lost, and if
someone had shown it to them again and had asked them whether they
wanted to go back to it, they would certainly have refused. They
answered me: "We may be deceitful, wicked and unjust, we know it and
weep over it, we grieve over it; we torment and punish ourselves more
perhaps than that merciful Judge Who will judge us and whose Name
we know not. But we have science, and by the means of it we shall find
the truth and we shall arrive at it consciously. Knowledge is higher than
feeling, the consciousness of life is higher than life. Science will give us
wisdom, wisdom will reveal the laws, and the knowledge of the laws of
happiness is higher than happiness."
That is what they said, and after saying such things everyone began to
love himself better than anyone else, and indeed they could not do otherwise.
All became so jealous of the rights of their own personality that
they did their very utmost to curtail and destroy them in others, and
made that the chief thing in their lives. Slavery followed, even voluntary
slavery; the weak eagerly submitted to the strong, on condition that the
latter aided them to subdue the still weaker. Then there were saints who
came to these people, weeping, and talked to them of their pride, of their
loss of harmony and due proportion, of their loss of shame. They were
laughed at or pelted with stones. Holy blood was shed on the threshold
of the temples. Then there arose men who began to think how to bring
all people together again, so that everybody, while still loving himself
best of all, might not interfere with others, and all might live together in
something like a harmonious society. Regular wars sprang up over this
idea. All the combatants at the same time firmly believed that science,
wisdom and the instinct of self-preservation would force men at last to
unite into a harmonious and rational society; and so, meanwhile, to
hasten matters, 'the wise' endeavoured to exterminate as rapidly as possible
all who were 'not wise' and did not understand their idea, that the
latter might not hinder its triumph. But the instinct of self-preservation
grew rapidly weaker; there arose men, haughty and sensual, who demanded
all or nothing. In order to obtain everything they resorted to
crime, and if they did not succeed — to suicide. There arose religions
with a cult of non-existence and self-destruction for the sake of the everlasting
peace of annihilation. At last these people grew weary of their meaningless toil, and signs of suffering came into their faces, and then
they proclaimed that suffering was a beauty, for in suffering alone was
there meaning. They glorified suffering in their songs. I moved about
among them, wringing my hands and weeping over them, but I loved
them perhaps more than in old days when there was no suffering in their
faces and when they were innocent and so lovely. I loved the earth they
had polluted even more than when it had been a paradise, if only because
sorrow had come to it. Alas! I always loved sorrow and tribulation,
but only for myself, for myself; but I wept over them, pitying them. I
stretched out my hands to them in despair, blaming, cursing and despising
myself. I told them that all this was my doing, mine alone; that it
was I had brought them corruption, contamination and falsity. I besought
them to crucify me, I taught them how to make a cross. I could
not kill myself, I had not the strength, but I wanted to suffer at their
hands. I yearned for suffering, I longed that my blood should be drained
to the last drop in these agonies. But they only laughed at me, and began
at last to look upon me as crazy. They justified me, they declared that
they had only got what they wanted themselves, and that all that now
was could not have been otherwise. At last they declared to me that I
was becoming dangerous and that they should lock me up in a madhouse
if I did not hold my tongue. Then such grief took possession of my
soul that my heart was wrung, and I felt as though I were dying; and
then … then I awoke.
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