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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
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Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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David ---
Their motive for working for tips has been covered and I doubt anyone wants to hear me rant about more than I have.
But, c'mon, just by calling eight year old kids "independent contractors", doesn't negate the fact that they are solicited, screened and given a
dress code by the store prior to doing their assigned tasks.
They work for the store and this "work for tips" crap is getting out of hand in Mexico. What is worse than an unfair wage? No wage at all.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64854
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Dennis, sounds like an internal Mexican affair... What business do we foreignors have in Mexican law, if that's what you are trying to affect here?
You can put the facts out for us to read, then it is up to us to proceed or not with tipping or ignoring the stores that have uniformed box boys that
are not paid wages.
I am wondering if the stores are forced to not have box boys work for just tips anymore, then doesn't that leave them only to do dirtier work, like
picking produce or juggling balls along the border?
Thanks for your information, by-the-way!
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Dave
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Registered: 11-5-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
I am wondering if the stores are forced to not have box boys work for just tips anymore, then doesn't that leave them only to do dirtier work, like
picking produce or juggling balls along the border?
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Normally, DK and I don't agree but:
These kids are putting groceries into sacks. Others are working as field hands, in sweat shops or sexual slavery.
You've got to pick your battles.
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DENNIS
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Dave / DK --------
Would you allow your eight year old kids to work at Vons or Albertsons, filling a position that is an integral part of the grocery industry, for tips
only?
And please, lets save all the "character building" aspects of free adolescent labor for another conversation.
David ----- Im trying to affect an opinion. If it's contrary to Mexican law, that's too bad. Who here hasn't disagreed with Mexican law at one
time or another? Besides, what law could possibly state that it's acceptible to hire kids and not pay them? If anything it's the absence of a law
which prohibits this practice.
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Dave
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
Dave / DK --------
Would you allow your eight year old kids to work at Vons or Albertsons, filling a position that is an integral part of the grocery industry,
for tips only?
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No, not for tips or salary and I'm not defending the practice either.
BTW, it ain't an integral part of the grocery industry...not anymore. If the kids went away the customers would take their place.
(And probably save the stores zillions on the cost of plastic bags.  )
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DENNIS
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Dave ---
I say it is still a part of the industry and will continue to be as long as customer service is an aspect of competition, although we may see the day
when it wont be. Home Depot has customer operated check out stations.
You mentioned the other day that you are an employer in Mexico, which I knew. I'm assuming yours is a reference to your deli. Do you pay your
employees or leave that detail to your customers by way of a large tip jar on the counter?
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
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Dennis:
Do you not know that UNIONS are a large part of the problems in Mexico????
Skeet
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DENNIS
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Skeet ------
Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm also aware of the problems which they've caused in the U.S.
What does that have to do with this discussion?
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Dave
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
Skeet ------
Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm also aware of the problems which they've caused in the U.S.
What does that have to do with this discussion? |
The unions are complicit.
I pay my employees, well. I also pay for emergency medical attention and books and clothing for their kids.
I pay and pay and pay...
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Iflyfish
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A most interesting dialogue indeed.
All societies must sort out the issue of who owns the resources, means of production and how wealth is aquired and distributed.
The inherant flaw of Capitalism or in the case of Mexico, Feudalism, is that wealth accrues to a few. Without a way to redistribute this wealth,
object poverty is the result. Recall the Great Depression in the USofA when millions of good, honest, Christian, hard working people were
impoverished, due to no fault of their own. There simply were not enough jobs to go around. The Federal Government eventually needed to become
involved to create jobs for people. In part this was accomplished by the work necessary to produce the arms for WWII.
The Chinese before the Communist revolution is an excellent example of the results of unbridled Capitalism. The Chinese were so good at it that their
society became so striated that the bottom had no where to go but to rebel. This also happened in the USofA during the time of the Trusts.
Without countervailing forces, i.e. labor unions, political parties, rebel groups, etc. there is no incentive for Capitalists to redistribute the
wealth. They often maintain attitudes like "I earned it, I am virtuous because I have wealth" untill the gates are torn down. As Marie Antoinette
said of the impoverished French, when informed that he people had no bread, "let them eat cake" As Barbara Bush said of those refuges of Katrina in
the arena in Houston, I do not have the exact quote, but it was someting like "they love it here, it is better than what they had at home".
The inherant flaw of Socialism, or Communism, is that incentive to produce and innovate is lost. If everything is provided for you, there is no need
to husstle and innovate.
If Feudalism or Capitalism has its way, unbridled, you see conditions such as you see in Mexico. These are the conditions that existed in the USofA
prior to child labor laws and the existance of unions.
There is a reason that there currently are "two presidents" in Mexico. The perminant underclass in Mexico occasionally emerge to assert their needs,
often it occurs in the form of revolution, when conditions become bad enough. Mexico eventually evicted the Catholic Church and overthrew their
government as a result of the inequety of how wealth was accrued by few and the needs of the majority were ignored. The current President of Mexico
won by a razor thin majority in an election that many contest.
Many countries in Latin America, whose people have for too long been on the short end of the economic stick, are turning to Socialist political
candidates who challenge the current economic structure where the means of production as well as the natural resources are owned by individuals.
Feudal Families or Capitalists who do not address the needs of society for redistribution of wealth, do so at their own peril.
Iflyfish
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DENNIS
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Iflyfish ---
Good comments. I realize todays problems have a long history and in many ways, resist modernization. That's the power and the greed at work.
It's hard to reason with a handful of people who have all the money.
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DENNIS
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Dave ------
Good.
Pay.
That's what you're supposed to do.
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Barry A.
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Capitolism, the best economic system yet devised, only works when the "capitolists" provide fair pay and benefits for a fair days work, within reason
(and that is the tricky part).
To do otherwise is short sighted and foolish. In that sense I completely agree with Iflyfish.
Anybody (yes ANYBODY) can grow rich in this country-----they just have to pay attention, learn, and make the right moves based on what they have
learned, and their particular talents-----but it takes time, work, and patience. Once rich, or well-off, they need to figure out how to help others
achieve the same status-----and many do. We are all in this together, period.
Exploitation of any "class" of people is foolish, and short-sighted, as it will come back and "bite you" eventually.
barry
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David K
Honored Nomad
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Ditto to what Barry said !
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DENNIS
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Barry -------
So......... Can I assume that you agree with me, that the grocery stores should pay their employees?
David ----
You won't agree with me on anything. Fine. Who needs it.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
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Dennis-----
----Yes, generally speaking, I agree that Groceries SHOULD pay their employees, at all levels. I was a bag-boy at age 14 in a small Grocery, and I
certainly was paid, tho at a very minimum wage. No way would I have consented to work for tips. I also was a delivery boy for a Liquor Store (prior
to any law against that) and they also paid me a "wage", but the tips were much more than the "wage", making the whole enterprise very profitable
(relatively speaking) for me. 
However, it all depends on what the employees and groceries "terms of employment" were/are as to what they will be paid, or even "if" they will be
paid.
My statement above is simply what I think "should" happen (if all are thinking clearly), not necessarily what "will" happen.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64854
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Dennis, please tell me on which point you say I am disagreeing?
1) It's none of our business, as foreignors
2) Working for tips (by choice) in a store beats begging on the streets
3) Communisim and socialism are failed sysytems that rob a people of opportunity and freedom
Maybe Barry was clearer than you without any hidden agendas. If you and Barry see eye to eye on what Barry typed, then that means you and I also see
eye to eye...
Now, no need to call me names or make false statements about me because I questioned your post... It's all about learning, afterall.
By the way, please provide some evidence with how you get that I am a 'butt-lick' of the Mexican goverment! That's outrageous and pretty gross amigo!
The Mexican government is a LONG way from meeting my idea of a good government...
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jorgie
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thanks all but you do realize the thread concerns Mexico. Never open the store until the shelves are stocked.
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bajabound2005
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2760
Registered: 10-15-2005
Location: Punta Banda, BCN
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Mood: words cannot describe...
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Wow! What if these kids actually went to SCHOOL and learned something other than bagging groceries or picking fruits and vegetables? Than they could
support their families in high style! As for the older folk bagging groceries - we've found most of them to be fluent in English AND Spanish.
Probably spent a lot of time in the EUA and retired; picking up a little "pin money" here in Baja.
Oh, I didn't see any mention of all the guys in the parking lots who only work for tips -- our "guy" at Costco -- we seek him out and vice versa; he
is trying SO hard to learn some English. So every time he asks us the English word for everything he puts into the car -- and a few pleasantries as
well. We all have fun teaching each other. He's definitely trying to improve himself; we tip him generously.
As for Unions.....(well, I gave them the courtesy of capitalizing the word....)
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Osprey
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Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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I've been following this thread a while. I was upset, at first, to learn that I needed Dennis to be my moral co-pilot while in Mexico but soon I
began to see things his way. It's all about the big corporations, not the little guys so now when I encounter the "the little match guys" (young or
old) I don't tip em and I push em out of the way -- just my way of showing them how to resist, how to rise above (as Dennis showed us). We thank you
Dennis, I'm sure they thank you too.
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