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Taco de Baja
Super Nomad
Posts: 1913
Registered: 4-14-2004
Location: Behind the Orange Curtain, CA
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Mood: Dreamin' of Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Frigatebird
| Quote: | Originally posted by Taco de Baja
And did this coastal flooding wipe out the mangrove swamps? The tidal pools? The estuary nurseries?.... No! |
Of course it caused the destruction of the existing communities. Only a gradual rise of the waters and any
adaptations the species possessed, allowed the communities to relocate. However, some species still may have become extinct from this natural
event. The rate of the change is what should concern people today. If the consensus holds true, the time to adapt will test large numbers of
creatures. |
I would not really call an average of 3 feet per 100 years gradual....And since this is an average, some centuries may have seen 2-3 times that rate….
And yes, many plants and animals went extinct during the SL rise, but many also moved with the changing climate, to the new location of their
preferred ecosystem. For example, there used to be Redwood trees in Los Angeles 40,000+ years ago (I have found their trunks on construction
projects in the course of my job as a paleontologist)...Where are they now? They "moved" to areas that they liked better...and the areas where they
live now, probably would not have been hospitable to them at the time.
Yes, man can and does change the environment to suit his needs. But nature is powerful too. Look at Mexico; in 1492 when Columbus sailed the ocean
blue, there were thriving cities throughout what is now Mexico, huge swaths of jungle had been cleared for the cities as well as the farms to feed the
people....after a few short 100 years the jungle has reclaimed the area so much that new archaeological discoveries are being made all the time. Even
to the extent that was once thought to be a natural hill turns out to be a huge pyramid reclaimed by the jungle.
Truth generally lies in the coordination of antagonistic opinions
-Herbert Spencer
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The Sculpin
Nomad
Posts: 401
Registered: 9-3-2002
Location: Back in the Saddle
Member Is Offline
Mood: Riding into the Sunset, looking for a sunrise.
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Are you anticipating an extremely large decline in the human population in the near future? In both examples cited, there either was no human
involvement, or human involvement ceased, allowing "nature" to take over. Guess what...we ARE nature, and we HAVE taken over! Nature will not be able
to reclaim anything until we are gone.
and retireing to baja doesn't count......
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Frigatebird
Nomad
Posts: 215
Registered: 9-12-2004
Location: L.A. County
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Mood: Soaring
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Taco de Baja
....after a few short 100 years [of abandonment] the jungle has reclaimed the area so much that new archaeological discoveries are being made all the
time. |
Therein lies a possible, if not practical solution. And maybe a lesson.
I agree nature is powerful. But mankind is part of nature, and certainly not exempt from its rules. We push on the system, and it responds. At some
point, perhaps already reached, the system's response will begin to impress us. How long do we wait for a definitive answer that convinces all of us
we've made our bed?
[Edited on 4-9-2007 by Frigatebird]
Avatar courtesy of Herb 
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Very adult conversation
I am impressed with the clarity on both sides of the issue. Many good strong points on both fields. You've pretty much convinced me you all are
correct.
There is little doubt that man has changed the world physically and biologically. Just how much influence have we had is still not hard data. Best to
be smart, act smart and future our race with cleaner better resources. Were at a point in physics where we will see exponential discoveries with keys
to this end. The shame is that that effort is so stifled by big govt and business. When these new resources become profitable and feasible we will
see huge changes that will affect us at the ground level.
We have not persued alternatives as fervently as we should have. I hope our children use their wits to augment the damage we keep inflicting upon
ourselves.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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So I am still not entirely convinced what man's role is in the current "climate change."
And should we reach (or maybe we have reached) a concensus that we must act, I'm not convinced that we can.
But I am also concerned by another aspect of this debate. Through most of the 20th century, science had a powerful position in the western world. In a
fraction of that century we went from Kitty Hawk to the Moon on the backs of science and engineering. But now I wonder if we have entered a new Dark
Ages, a medieval-like period where true science is eclipsed by a faith-based politics and economics.
Science has become too complex for many, and too expensive for the emergence of a modern day Edison emerging from a basement laboratory. Science is
dependent on government and corporate funding; even most university research now dependent on outside grants. The allegation of this film is not just
that the climate change debate has been distorted, but that we no longer can depend on Science to guide us, untainted by corruption.
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
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Don, you said a mouthful!, however,
that most certainly pertains to both sides of the fence. I'm sure you agree?
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64746
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Great level headed debate here...
I think everyone can appreciate this open minded discussion.
If a conservative can agree that improving fuel consumption, lower emissions and enviromental care-taking is good.... and a liberal can agree that
'global warming' not only is natural if it is even happening, but is also political idea, then we can do great things together!
Heck, they can't even play baseball in Cleavland because of the record COLD and snowfall, this year!
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
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Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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Global Warming in Cleveland
The Cleveland Indians were Snowed out for the Fourth Straight Day and are moving their remaining games to Milwaukee (indoors).
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
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ah, MrBillM
where have you been hiding?
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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bufeo
Senior Nomad
Posts: 793
Registered: 11-16-2003
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
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Heck, they can't even play baseball in Cleavland [sic]because of the record COLD and snowfall, this year! |
Yes, this is a worthwhile discussion, but it's Cleveland, DK.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64746
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Thanks Bufeo...
It isn't in Baja, so I didn't care as much how it is spelled!
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bufeo
Senior Nomad
Posts: 793
Registered: 11-16-2003
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Thanks Bufeo...
It isn't in Baja, so I didn't care as much how it is spelled!
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That's good enough for me. 
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Packoderm
Super Nomad
Posts: 2116
Registered: 11-7-2002
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One thing I keep hearing here is how one volcano can spew more greenhouse gas in a short time than countless cars and factories can in a year. But one
thing to consider is that in addition to gasses, volcanoes also spew out lava which eventually becomes fertile soil on which vegetation can grow to
clean the air which helps balance things out. "The fertile soil is a result of the breakdown of various minerals - such as olivine, pyroxene,
amphibole, and feldspar (the essential ingredients of volcanic ash and lava) which releases iron, magnesium, potassium etc to the soil." I doubt the
same can be said for our tailpipes and smokestacks.
http://sio.ucsd.edu/volcano/volcano_qa/advanced.html
Also, volcano eruptions cause a sort of "nuclear winter" which cools much of the earth as what happened with the eruption of Mt. Saint Hellens. Of
course you could take this one step further like Thomas C. Greene proposes by bombing Earth's atmosphere with sulfur by firing artillery shells in the
air to create "global dimming" to combat global warming. "There is evidence suggesting that recent efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions has
caused a spike in global temperatures over the past decade. Without our protective layer of industrial pollutants, the Earth's atmosphere is now
reflecting less solar radiation, and temperatures are rising. We could be rendering the planet uninhabitable just because we're afraid of a little
shmutz in the air. "The message, then, that air pollution is good for the Earth, will no doubt resonate deeply with the Bush administration. And while
the Bushies have been hostile toward the idea of global warming, certainly the idea of attacking a complicated problem with heavy artillery will
appeal to them so strongly that we might see some action soon."
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/01/an_artificial_volcan...
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Bajafun777
Super Nomad
Posts: 1103
Registered: 9-13-2006
Location: Rosarito & California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enjoying Life with Wife In Mexico, Easy on The Easy
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It's always our fault for wanting more and more, but then isn't it their fault for wanting us to give more and more. Our problem is we have let the
winos, dinos, and dingbats get into positions of authority along with making our choices resulting in our lives getting tougher. Yes, we have
utilized all that we can get our hands on in fuel consumption but look at the rainforest being burnt to become crop areas or construction sites. We
have developed more and more ways to utilize solar equipment and hydrogen development to meet more and more of our needs. I have seen what solar is
able to do for those homeowners that use systems to get what they need and put the rest into the electrical system. Additionally, they get a nice
little sell back fee to their advantage. We have also pushed a lot of our farming land out of service which was helping our environment by the crops
making the cycle work. We are on the right paths to take on the challenge of weather change but folks we will not see it in our life time either
way!! I started to get depressed thinking about all of this and the ruin of the world. However, I came to my senses and popped opened a cold one
that always seems to make the day end so much better with the world still turning . No fight, Be Happy~~~~Later---------bajafun777
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bajadogs
Super Nomad
Posts: 1064
Registered: 8-28-2006
Member Is Offline
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Spotty record cold temps and snowfall do not disprove man-made global warming. Day-to-day weather watching is like predicting a chaotic pendulum. The
scientists, who have documented the amount of man-made carbon introduced into our thin atmosphere, would be horribly disturbed that one would argue
that the delay of a baseball game negates decades of research.
DavidK,
I am also glad this discussion has been civil.
You typed-
| Quote: | | a liberal can agree that 'global warming' not only is natural if it is even happening, but is also political idea |
While 'global warming' has been politically leveraged like terrorism, security, healthcare, education, immigration etc., it was not spawned as a
'political idea' as you say. It is science and is way too complex to be dismissed as 'politics'. Sometimes there is no political agenda.
I wish there was as much skeptisism about another "threat" over 4 years ago.
peace to all nomads
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rogerj1
Nomad
Posts: 265
Registered: 4-29-2004
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
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Well put Lencho. With something this difficult to get your hands around, there's going to be extreme reactions on every side of the issue. This is the
scientific version of Armagedon for crying out loud!
The conspiracy theorists will come up with elaborate coverups.
Those not willing to deal with it will make fun of the science and turn this into an Al Gore issue.
The overly dramatic will make predictions using questionable science.
The rest of us will fall somewhere in between.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64746
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajadogs
Spotty record cold temps and snowfall do not disprove man-made global warming. Day-to-day weather watching is like predicting a chaotic pendulum. The
scientists, who have documented the amount of man-made carbon introduced into our thin atmosphere, would be horribly disturbed that one would argue
that the delay of a baseball game negates decades of research.
DavidK,
I am also glad this discussion has been civil.
You typed-
| Quote: | | a liberal can agree that 'global warming' not only is natural if it is even happening, but is also political idea |
While 'global warming' has been politically leveraged like terrorism, security, healthcare, education, immigration etc., it was not spawned as a
'political idea' as you say. It is science and is way too complex to be dismissed as 'politics'. Sometimes there is no political agenda.
I wish there was as much skeptisism about another "threat" over 4 years ago.
peace to all nomads |
N-zi Germany didn't attack us either, but our involvement to rid the world of Hitler was the right thing to do...
Now, back to the topic of global warming in Baja...
Actually 'Global Warming' is a religion, because science never closes the discussion to new findings and discoveries. The 'warmies' do not accept any
science that shows the world is neither warming abnormally or man made.
It is a religion that cannot be disputed or they go nuts... The world has warmed and cooled over and over without man... If it is warming again, it
wouldn't matter if man was here or not.
In fact it has been warming for some 10,000 years... If anything, the trend would be to begin cooling. We know the ice pack covered much of North
America... and sea levels were lower (how ancient people walked to Alaska from Siberia).
Before then, the world was warmer, sea levels were higher (see fossil shells far from the sea in Baja)... This was a few million years ago... no man
made pollution then.
Getting you all worked up or changing your life or getting votes is what politicians want.
Use some common sense, look at the facts, live well, live happy... Don't worry the sky isn't falling (or warming too much)!
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bajadogs
Super Nomad
Posts: 1064
Registered: 8-28-2006
Member Is Offline
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Woe DavidK,
"Global Warming" is a religion? Where did this come from? Seriously, religion?
Who teaches you these mythes?
AM radio lies reach deep into Baja.
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
Member Is Offline
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bufeo
it's a hell of a lot better then Filadelfia!
jeez what did I start here? I don't know what to do anymore.
I have my Air Conditioner and Heating System running at the same time?!?!
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
Member Is Offline
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George, I believe for the Eastern/Southern Pacific (Baja) if Global warming is occuring, thermohaline forces far outweigh anthropogenic causes. I
think I can prove it. I'd bet a case of Ballenas on it. You just have to give me some time to find some dots, then find a way to connect them.
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