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The Gull
Super Nomad
Posts: 2223
Registered: 8-28-2003
Location: Rancho Descanso, BCN
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Mood: High
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Caveat Emptor or Noblesse Oblige?
Those who cannot read a Spanish menu should be charged 20% extra since the proprietor had to get his menu translated and extra copies printed to
accommodate.
Those lodging establishments which have English speaking staff should charge 20% more for non-Spanish speaking Gringos, because bi-lingual staff gets
paid more.
If you disagree with the above, stay in the US or Canada and spend more of your money there for less service and courtesy for the same commodities.
As was suggested in previous posts, use the Spanish menu and keep track of the costs of items. If you lose track, just ask for a menu at the time you
receive La Cuenta to compare.
A factoid was provided one time to me and I didn't bother to research it. I was told: "It is against Mexican Law for restaurants to have the menu
ONLY in foreign currency" - that means like US dollars or Canadian loonies.
I would love to hear from a Citizen of Mexico on this board who can shed some light on that claim.
�I won\'t insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.� William F. Buckley, Jr.
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sd
Nomad
Posts: 487
Registered: 3-19-2008
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Very interesting responses, thank you everyone.
Shari, what is the difference in price for the same meal or beer for a local versus a tourist?
I am sure it is a struggle to get by on $10 per day, if that is an average pay for your area. Does the government help in any way? I think they will
assist in purchasing a boat, am I right? I take all the information in I can so that I can better understand.
Has tourism helped the average family in your area?
Thanks
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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While Shari is gathering her thoughts, allow me to ask you why your questions are making blood shoot out of my eyes? Can you try some other area of
inquiry that will allow us to see you as some one seeking info without appearing to be a miserly, ungraceful tourist insinuating your hosts are cheats
and liars? Please.
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sd
Nomad
Posts: 487
Registered: 3-19-2008
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Osprey -
If a local needs a discount from $3.00 to $2.00 due to economic conditions I understand. I love the little restaurants, and would much prefer to be
seated with the locals, adds more flavor to my trip.
I personally have seen VERY wide variations in prices charged when I am in Baja. It bothers me.
After my first trip driving down with nothing to give, I never made that mistake again. I use this forum to better each trip.
Many areas (the best remote locations) provide very little opportunity for the locals. I now help as I can with items to give away. I like doing that!
Thanks for your comment.
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sd
Nomad
Posts: 487
Registered: 3-19-2008
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Osprey -
I had not seen your second reply when I answered, sorry.
No ill intent meant by my questions.
Am I a "miserly, ungraceful tourist"?
Have I called any host a cheat or liar?
I am a tourist that has loved my Baja trips. Nearly everyone has been first class. I have enjoyed several towns, stayed at great places and look
forward to finding new spots.
Do I think it is wrong to be charged double for a meal, yes. Is it OK? Not for me. Others, I asked the question, and I now know more than I did.
Your opinions are fine. Thats how you feel, its all good.
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bajalera
Super Nomad
Posts: 1875
Registered: 10-15-2003
Location: Santa Maria CA
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Whatever our pesonal views of this matter happen to be, it occurs world-wide and isn't likely to disappear any time soon.
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64859
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Charged double??? As in $4 instead of $2 or $40 instead of $20??
You ordered without knowing the cost of what you were having??
All restaurants and taco stands I have been to have the prices or will tell you up front... 
Sorry you got a bum deal in Baja... be careful in the future!
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sd
Nomad
Posts: 487
Registered: 3-19-2008
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David K -
No bum deal in Baja, I enjoy every trip.
I am extremely generous and know how important my $$ are to the business owner when I stop for a meal or lodging.
I do want to be treated fairly, and dual pricing is difficult for me. I do feel for the locals trying to get by on moderate income. I honestly am
concerned and interested in how they make it. I have been told of government subsidies when purchasing a panga for example, but do not know if
programs such as this exist. I would like to know more.
You have traveled to many remote spots that appeal to me. In your opinion, will more tourism improve these areas or make the basics too expensive for
the residents?
Thanks
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longlegsinlapaz
Super Nomad
Posts: 1685
Registered: 11-18-2005
Location: La Paz
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Hmmm... well, I am not surprised if we gringos get quoted a higher price... as we don't use the services in Mexico on a frequent basis.
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WE don't? Spoken as a true occasional tourist!! David, you might want to keep in mind that there are people who live here
full time & are on limited income and who can't afford paying "gringo" prices! Your "I pay in dollars (always accepted) just so I give an
extra 10% or so when I buy products or sevices... on purpose." is pure arrogance & BS...most towns do give change close to the current
exchange rate & PEMEX has a standard fixed 10%. If, on the other hand your bill for groceries or services is $1,000 pesos & you toss down a
$100 USD bill & tell them to "keep the change", then IMO, it's "big-spenders" like you who perpetuate the myth that all gringos are rich &
fuel the separate local vs gringo prices! I hope when you retire you have a fixed monthly retirement income of $1,000; then you just might gain some
understanding of fair & equal prices for everyone, regardless of nationality.
I do shop around, especially for construction materials. Because I was willing to order & pay up front for cement & rebar for my entire casa,
I got better pricing than my first architect did! Same on bids, I get several & each supplier knows they're in a competitive situation. When I
talk with a supplier I haven't dealt with before, I tell them I'm a full-time resident, not a tourist or part-timer, and it does make a difference in
the price. They're in business to make a profit & I know they won't be taking a loss by lowering prices to a win/win level.
I know some La Paz hotels do offer discounted pricing if a resident makes the reservation for friends or family, but that's not a situation I've ever
been in a position to use.
I agree with Judy, the full-timers are the steady customer base year round; but then I rarely eat in a resort setting...more commonly local places
where the prices are posted for all to see.
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
I am a tourist on vacation, and can afford it. |
Well bully for you!! We aren't all you, try walking a mile in someone else's shoes for a change!
I treat the people I live amongst & do business with fairly & with respect & I expect the same in return. And....yes! I do tip based on
good service.
And don't call people whiners just because they might be in a different financial situation than you are!
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by sd
I have been told of government subsidies when purchasing a panga for example, but do not know if programs such as this exist. I would like to know
more.
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Well, it's your thread and you asked so this won't be a hijacking.
Years back, when the traditional panga hit the scene, they were manufactured with government assistance and made available only to members of
fishing co-ops. I don't know if the government is still involved but, anybody can now own a panga.
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sd
Nomad
Posts: 487
Registered: 3-19-2008
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Thanks Dennis -
Sorry if I changed direction of my original posting. Just trying to listen to the responses to my question and learn from them.
Take care
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Baja&Back
Senior Nomad
Posts: 549
Registered: 9-10-2004
Location: Vancouver, Canada / todo de Baja
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Mood: Rarin' to go South!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Capt. George
Are Mexicans charged more for services/supplies in the U.S. of A.? I think not.
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Actually, this is done all thru Hawaii - to anyone, regardless of nationality. Every store & restaurant has Tourist season & off season prices
& menus. Locals are issued a Kamaaina Card or show Hawaiian state ID & get 20% off everything in the winter.
Why should they get ripped off along with the haole tourists?
Happens in a lot of tourist places across the world. 
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Gadget
Senior Nomad
Posts: 851
Registered: 9-10-2006
Location: Point Loma CA
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Mood: Blessed with another day
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sd,
Hmmm??? Seems like such an easy thing to avoid. Much like the gauntlet near the border. Travel in daylight. Easy!
I make my dollars into pesos when I cross the border...ALWAYS.
Things that are priced in pesos in Mexico:
The gas pump dials
The packaged food at the grocery stores
The fresh cold beer
The food menu in your hand or on the wall
The room rate
A bag of ice
This list could go on and on
Pay the price posted in pesos for the public to see.
You will always loose paying with dollars IMHO
I mean, if you are willing to pay a price that is quoted to you then its all good, right?
How would you know or why would you care what someone else pays?
Pay with pesos and avoid the exchange hassle or rip-off.
I have always felt that my vacation time in Baja is a great value for multipal reasons.
I guess if you worry that you are being over charged, then you probably are for some reason.
[Edited on 4-25-2008 by Gadget]
"Mankind will not be judged by their faults, but by the direction of their lives." Leo Giovinetti
See you in Baja
http://www.LocosMocos.com
Gadget |
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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I like what you have to say Gadget and Longlegs, and I need to adjust my thinking.
If I feel victimized in a situation, then I guess that is my own fault. I am not following good practice if I come out feeling used or abused by the
double standard. I simply need to not accept it and negotiate from strength. I have not liked that trait in many travelers I have run accross, but I
now see that negotiating down to what the traffic will bear in not victimizing anyone, it is what is necessary for establishing fair trade. My brother
once told me that "if you do not negotiate in Mexico that you are seen as a chump" and I guess there is truth to that. It also protects the interests
of local gringos who must deal with this double standard if I negotiate and don't accept prices as fixed. I need to accept that I may be seen as a
cheapskate rather than a chump. It really isn't personal and I need to remind myself of this. If I don't read the Mexican Menu and order off that then
I really am being stupid.
Lesson for me, be very clear out front what the costs are in pesos and decide if it is worth is or not. Negotiate in every situation that I can since
I can assume that I am being offered a higher price just because I am a gringo, that is unless I see prices posted for the item I am interested in.
Even in that situation I probably need to negotiate. See if I can find out what the "lay of the land" is before I purchase. Recognise that in Mexico I
am seen as the source of subsidy for others lower prices and that local folks see me as the source of resolve for this issue.
I must be aware that I am dealing with a double standard and adjust to that. It looks like my "tips" are built in. That may be the best way to deal
with this. If I am paying the tip out front, maybe I should not worry about providing one at the back end, or at least provide less given that I have
already paid that out front. I have looked at tough minded tourists who have negotiated everything to the bottom line and been critical of them, they
may know something that I do not know.
Based upon posts from people I respect it appears that I have personalized what is a cultural difference and need to adjust my thinking. I guess being
on a fixed income, facing higer oil prices and losses on investments have me examining my budget and expenses. It looks like I don't need to be
concerned about being generous, someone else is already doing that for me by taking what I might give before I have a chance to give it.
I do have strong feelings about this and it is one of the cultural differences that I really do not like. I understand the built in corruption, I just
don't like it. It is clear that the problem is mine to deal with. I guess if one travels in Mexico one simply has to become accustomed to being seen
as a gringo to be milked for every dollar at every turn and then be expected to appreciate it. I guess this is the reality and the strength of my
reaction is that is based upon a hope that this could be different. Not in my life time.
I appreciate the discussion of this issue. For me this discussion is another way to look at a cultural difference and to try to sort out how to handle
it. I appreciate the candor of the posts.
Iflyfish
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BFS
Senior Nomad
Posts: 520
Registered: 9-28-2006
Location: Todos Santos
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si-po
I think its ok too.
Disneyland and Legoland offer big discounts to local residents.
Here in Chile the National Parks have different prices for residents (foreign or national), and foreign residents and they are vastly different.
Torres del Paine NP (out front here) charges $30 usd for foreigners and $5 usd for residents, ouch!
In the heavily tourist dependant areas locals are trying make a living in a very short season so they escalate prices to stock up for the scarce
winter months.
Its slightly more subtle here than in Baja however.
Restaurants do not have two different menus, instead you can the order the "menu" which isnt advertised anywhere (I think in Mexico its called the
"plato del dia"?) and consists of a yummy and filling 3 course meal and usually very cheap.
All the locals order the "menu" and gringos are welcome to as well but they have to know about it. Most dont.
There is a further hidden drink that is not advertised anywhere that is called an "atencion de la casa" and its an after dinner liquor type drink and
its free! Even some locals dont know about this one but all restaurants offer it here.
Ive found that in Baja as in elsewhere as a local resident you just have to insist on the local price and you will get it. It will usually not be
offered to you up front, but its kind of like a game and you need to show your colours before playing.
I know that annoys many people (my wife being for example :fire , but if you cant
stand the heat....
Aq
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
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Rice and Beans had the Peso and Dollar prices on the "same" menu, side by side. Considerably more on the dollar side...How's that for arrogance?
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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The Gull
Super Nomad
Posts: 2223
Registered: 8-28-2003
Location: Rancho Descanso, BCN
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Mood: High
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Capt. George
Rice and Beans had the Peso and Dollar prices on the "same" menu, side by side. Considerably more on the dollar side...How's that for arrogance?
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Going there sounds questionable. Maybe you should stop.
�I won\'t insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.� William F. Buckley, Jr.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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When you use dollars in countries that have other currency, you are making everybody in the country your banker. They have to go to the bank (sooner
or later), make the trip, spend the gas money, stand in line, hope they went on the right time/day not to lose on the transaction. Once in Mulege my
boss told the Pemex guy to fill up his moho. When it was time to pay my boss didn't like the exchange rate, asked me to intercede -- I sided with the
gas guy. The gas was already in the rig, when the attendant got the dollars he became the banker, free to charge whatever he thought the banking
service was worth. That was a long time ago -- the situation is the same at this very minute. I haven't used dollars to buy anything in the last 13
years --- said another way "In Mexico, the peso makes no enemies".
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Capt. George
Rice and Beans had the Peso and Dollar prices on the "same" menu, side by side. Considerably more on the dollar side...How's that for arrogance?
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Arrogant? Maybe, but, at least they're up front about it. Peso/dollar fluctuation is hard to keep up with.
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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Bargaining...
I tried that at a Loreto second hand store. I needed a small pot to boil water and dye some material.
I pulled one off the shelf. Just an old pan, worth at most a dollar or two.
"How much for this?"
"200 pesos."
Oh.
So, behind it was another, just a bit smaller, clearly much more used, even dented.
"OK, how much for THIS one?"
"240 pesos."
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