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Steve in Oro Valley
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Location: Near Tucson
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Thanks David:
I would suggest that you google - trincheras-
There is a web site belonging to the University of Arizona which has a lot of information about these desert structures and what they may have been
used for....
I just got back from a hike (northwest of Tucson) to Cerro Prieto (Los Robles community) and in particular, a low hill called "dictionary hill" which
is huge for petroglyphs...
Did you encounter shards, tools or petroglyphs at the mesa near Las Animas?
The late son of Anita Espinosa used to teach in Trincheras, Sonora years ago and he brought Anita many artifacts from the trincheras sites . She
showed me some them when I last met with her in El Rosario in 1997.
I would suspect that most of the work done at Las Animas was done without the help of the Jesuits...
Thanks
Steve in Oro Valley
p.s. What about the old road to Rancho La Bocana???
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Steve in Oro Valley
Thanks David:
I would suggest that you google - trincheras-
There is a web site belonging to the University of Arizona which has a lot of information about these desert structures and what they may have been
used for....
I just got back from a hike (northwest of Tucson) to Cerro Prieto (Los Robles community) and in particular, a low hill called "dictionary hill" which
is huge for petroglyphs...
Did you encounter shards, tools or petroglyphs at the mesa near Las Animas?
The late son of Anita Espinosa used to teach in Trincheras, Sonora years ago and he brought Anita many artifacts from the trincheras sites . She
showed me some them when I last met with her in El Rosario in 1997.
I would suspect that most of the work done at Las Animas was done without the help of the Jesuits...
Thanks
Steve in Oro Valley
p.s. What about the old road to Rancho La Bocana??? |
Hi again Steve... I have been to La Bocana (mis-named San Pedro in the Almanac) once and the entire old road (the Gardner '66 route) several times...
Please see this thread posted before the discovery. In this other thread is a map pointing to the areas I concentrated on, including two trips to
Tinaja Santa Maria: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=35520
In my trip report of last week is a photo of a metate on top of the mesa... no other tools were noticed in our time up there. If there were petros or
anything other of interest, I would have photographed it! We were surprised that there were no rock markings at all... Perhaps INAH or others in the
years since this site was discovered first have removed them?
I appreciate your input... If not ordered by the Jesuits, why would the natives build those long low walls? The amount of Desert Varnish on them
convinced Pepper and the others that the walls were hundreds of years old...
An attempt at establishing a Spanish fort on the mesa and a mission below would have been between 1752 and 1762 in my estimation (after Santa
Gertrudis and before San Borja were established).
I am guessing that if it was a Spanish fort and mission start(like San Bruno, near Loreto), that the site was abandoned because the spring dried up or
a dryer season didn't bring expected rains to fill that reservoir there. Perhaps the desire to follow the coast around to Sonora by the Jesuits was
halted by the king, and they were re-directed to the north to occupy upper California before the Russians or British.... so San Borja was chosen as
the next mission.
On the map, the distance from Santa Gertrudis north to Las Animas is very similar to the distance north to San Borja!
This is all great stuff... let's keep the ideas flowing!
[Edited on 1-10-2009 by David K]
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Sharksbaja
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I'm curious David. Both you and Jack Swords have hinted heavily that INAH has more than likely documented this place. Is that info off-limits to
researchers and explorers like yourselves?
Is there something you do know that would indicate that the site has indeed been surveyed and otherwise documented by that authority?
It seems you dismiss this site as important because INAH may have documented it..
If so how would one go about access that pertinent and vital archival information and more importantly, why have you not investigated that angle for
quantifying your pursuit and search for the ruins? Just curious.
How many antiquities of Spanish origin have turned up at any of the sites that have been catalogued, any idea?
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David K
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Sharks, I am just an avid Baja enthusiast who loves the history of California... wich begins in Baja, the first California. Anything to do with old
California history interests me, as well as many others.
I am willing to drive a hundred rough dirt miles, sleep on a rock hard bed (Costa del Sol Room 8), and not have a job waiting for me when I return...
JUST to see if what you spotted on Google Earth could be the site I have wanted to visit since 1973 when I first read about it, and made several trips
into the region over the past 8 years. It was, I was most thrilled, and I want to share my excitement... However, to put this into some perspective:
It is some rock walls, earth dams, a dead looking palm tree, and some clam shells inside of rock circles on top of a lava mesa...
THAT is what brought me there, to see it... confirm it was what the Gardner Party saw in 1966... and that was about it.
Choral Pepper and maybe others believed it was an abandoned mission project called Santa Maria Magdalena. From what I saw, there were a combination of
Spanish like efforts (the dam, canal, walls) at an excellent look-out spot, along with obvious Indian-like rock 'sleeping' circles, clam and oyster
shells, and a metate (grinding stone).
We went there, and I shared the photos with all of you, my fellow Baja enthusiasts... There is nothing more to it than that...
As far as INAH goes, I tried to work with them in 2005 with an effort to preserve Mision Santa Maria... I got all sorts of positive feedback and
enthusiasm at what we had volunteered to do (stop the doorway erosion) until the day before we left when I got a complete reversal of support and
orders to not do anything... and on top of that to provide transportation to and from the site the same day for an INAH person who was passing by.
Then, they promissed to begin restoration a over year ago and all they did was go in and take photos and leave a marker with an older date on it.
INAH allows existing, known missions and visitas to vanish (Santo Tomas both sites, Santa Catalina, San Juan de Dios, Santa Maria... and little
remains of El Rosario's 2 adobe sites, San Miguel, San Fernando...
These rock walls are not higher on a priority rating, than the actual, established missions... and have not changed in 43 years, unlike the adobe
missions.
Jack Swords has approval from INAH to photograph any historic sites... as a way to preserve them, since INAH isn't or can't. Already there are
missions Jack, Kevin or I has photographed that have fallen (La Presntacion, El Novillo, Ligüí)
Again, the site is in plain view and well described... no reason to think that Baja Angel and I are the first people there since 1966... and if we
were, than it is high time others can enjoy the experience of walking around an old Spanish fort or an Indian rancheria... what ever the site was.
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Sharksbaja
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Ok then, thanks for that. Seriously, I think there is more to the story but I can handle it, not knowing who the heck built it.
It is a shame heritage and history is so lightly considered in Baja. Kudos to you and Jack for preserving history through your own efforts.
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David K
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NEW DETAILS!
I posted this 'discovery' on other Baja sites, as well... Hoping for some answers! Thanks to a 'Fulano' on the Baja Quest forum (bajaforums.com)....
Corky, you will be happy to hear that the site was studied by archaeologists in 1994, per some papers I saw written by Eric W. Ritter for the Pacific
Coast Archaelogical Society. http://www.pcas.org/Vol34N3/343Rittr.pdf and http://www.pcas.org/documents/Observationsa.pdf
The site is known as Cerro de las Calaveras (Hill of the Skulls)
The 'sleeping circles' are burial sites... human bones were in them.
The site pre dates the Jesuits by a 1,000-6,000 years... (I did a quick look at the pages).
I need to go to an appointment right now... I found no explanation for the walls, dam, palm, etc., however. Perhaps the Jesuits were there much later?
>>> Update: This is NOT the site visited by Dr. Ritter!
[Edited on 1-14-2009 by David K]
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Sharksbaja
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Wow! How did this peson come to know about the hill? I'm curious as to why he/shecome forward as per your search earlier.
Those are some intriguing artifacts and evidence found. Very cool indeed. I especially love the name of that hill. Did they find skulls there? I'll
have to read the literature.
Glad to hear it's documented. Funny how others knew all along.
I guess we should have Googled it first!
Here is some more data from Ritter et al:
http://ir.lib.sfu.ca/bitstream/1892/8497/1/b18457976.pdf
[Edited on 1-12-2009 by Sharksbaja]
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Barry A.
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This is really funny----------I have known Dr. Ritter well for some 35 years, and he lives only a few blocks from me here in Redding, CA.
I guess I need to go over and talk to him. 
Barry
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BajaGringo
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And then report back!!!
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
And then report back!!! |
------Oh my Gawd, responsibility for sure. 
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Sharksbaja
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Perhaps you can convince him to join in Nomads, Barry. That would be the icing on Davids' cake. Glad to see the mystery solved. Those are freakin' old
walls!!!
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David K
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Barry, I got your email before reading this thread, this afternoon... Please see if Dr. Ritter would like to answer those questions... The rock rings
on top of the mesa are interesting, but the purpose and builders of the walls leading up to the mesa as well as the dam and walls below on the desert
floor is even more interesting to me, and I don't see (yet) any explanation for them. I would like to read Ritter's article on Las Animas in P.C.A.S's
Quarterly Vol. 30 (Winter, 1994) as it is not available on line, that I have been able to see so far.
Thank you so much!!!
>>> Update, the mesa of my photos was not one studied by Dr. Ritter or listed in the PCAS Vol. 30.
[Edited on 1-16-2009 by David K]
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BajaGringo
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Barry - ask him if they left what they found in place or was it removed? if so are they on display anywhere???
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wilderone
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"The 'sleeping circles' are burial sites... human bones were in them"
David, I don't think that's what the article said: "The site types include ... hundreds of widely scattered rock enclosures. These rock rings or
rock enclosures occur on the fan, hills and shorelines, sometimes in clusters of up to 24. They are variable in size and position, often found with
shells and artifacts. They occur at remote locations with expansive vistas. Here they sure have no other cultural association. ... Burial pattern
differentiation and shamaic involvement, as perhaps in rock art production and construction of possible ritual-related features such as cleared
pathways and rock enclosures lacking residential debris are uncertain possibilities."
IMHO, there are too many of these rock circles found everywhere to be burial sites. I found them side by side at El Volcan where there was evidence
of habitation - they wouldn't bury their dead where they're living day to day. If they're 6000 years old, the apparent condition of them has possibly
changed from their original purpose and evidence found when studies were done can be misinterpreted. If they were once buried and dug up, I think
there would be evidence of that; and I believe they burned their dead or sick people just wandered off to die alone somewhere.
??????????
I know that at some Anasazi sites bones laying on the ground were found (2000 years later) after an apparent battle, and those were the bones of the
murdered. I don't know why their remaining tribesmen didn't bury their remains regardless.
The walls could possibly be a boundary of sorts. I know that some of the tribes were not peaceful and could be a way to claim territory. Pictographs
are full of "boundary" type messages indicating that other boundary proclamations of another sort is possible. Have you ever seen the very similar
rock wall just north of Bishop CA - both sides of Hwy. 395 known to be of indigenous origin - very much like the Animas rock wall in construction.
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
"The 'sleeping circles' are burial sites... human bones were in them"
David, I don't think that's what the article said: "The site types include ... hundreds of widely scattered rock enclosures. These rock rings or
rock enclosures occur on the fan, hills and shorelines, sometimes in clusters of up to 24. They are variable in size and position, often found with
shells and artifacts. They occur at remote locations with expansive vistas. Here they sure have no other cultural association. ... Burial pattern
differentiation and shamaic involvement, as perhaps in rock art production and construction of possible ritual-related features such as cleared
pathways and rock enclosures lacking residential debris are uncertain possibilities."
IMHO, there are too many of these rock circles found everywhere to be burial sites. I found them side by side at El Volcan where there was evidence
of habitation - they wouldn't bury their dead where they're living day to day. If they're 6000 years old, the apparent condition of them has possibly
changed from their original purpose and evidence found when studies were done can be misinterpreted. If they were once buried and dug up, I think
there would be evidence of that; and I believe they burned their dead or sick people just wandered off to die alone somewhere.
??????????
I know that at some Anasazi sites bones laying on the ground were found (2000 years later) after an apparent battle, and those were the bones of the
murdered. I don't know why their remaining tribesmen didn't bury their remains regardless.
The walls could possibly be a boundary of sorts. I know that some of the tribes were not peaceful and could be a way to claim territory. Pictographs
are full of "boundary" type messages indicating that other boundary proclamations of another sort is possible. Have you ever seen the very similar
rock wall just north of Bishop CA - both sides of Hwy. 395 known to be of indigenous origin - very much like the Animas rock wall in construction.
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I love all the input possible... Cindi, did you look at illustrations #20 & 22 at http://www.pcas.org/Vol34N3/343Rittr.pdf ?
Those are human bones inside the rock circles... on Cerro de las Calaveras...
Just seeking the truth (it is out there)!
>>> Update: human bones were not in the rock circles, but in other shallow sites... and not at all at the mesa of my photos.
[Edited on 1-16-2009 by David K]
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sharksbaja
Wow! How did this peson come to know about the hill? I'm curious as to why he/shecome forward as per your search earlier.
Those are some intriguing artifacts and evidence found. Very cool indeed. I especially love the name of that hill. Did they find skulls there? I'll
have to read the literature.
Glad to hear it's documented. Funny how others knew all along.
I guess we should have Googled it first!
Here is some more data from Ritter et al:
http://ir.lib.sfu.ca/bitstream/1892/8497/1/b18457976.pdf
[Edited on 1-12-2009 by Sharksbaja] |
Corky, as I have been saying... this hill is no secret... it's right there by the bay with a popular road going around both sides of it. The walls and
circles were photographed and published in 1966... Lot's of time for research to examine it all. I just wanted to find THAT place that was
photographed by Choral.
Thanks to your sharp eye on Google Earth, I have been there, and it is a highly intersting place. I am not at all surprised that archaeologists have
already documented the site. That is sort of a relief now for those who think I opened pandora's box and Nomads will descend on the hill like locusts
and leave trash and paint graffiti!
I have a better opinion of you Nomads... You love Baja like I do and want the best for Baja and wish new Baja enthusiasts a good time and to
appreciate the peninsula, too!
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Sharksbaja
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Well to be on the safe side let's assume that Dr Ritter researched the hill and found evidence of possible habitation. Inasmuch tools and the middens
associated with them confirm this. Now are you willing to say that this place may hold more significant evidence than what was found during Dr Ritters
study?
Don't be quick to dispell the notion. It is a large area there that was used heretofore for purposes still unknown. There were people there for a
considerable amount of time evidenced by the extensive rock work.
My feeling is that the hill is a sacred site used for burial rituals. The walls may have been built to fend off or prohibit evil spirits from
entering the sacred site.
The circles may have been built to confuse the spirits or (peoples??) from locating the buried dead. Maybe that's why if you dig in the correct
circle you might find more than dirt and rocks. Hmmmmm...
I guess this place IS important, no?
[Edited on 1-13-2009 by Sharksbaja]
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Sharksbaja
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David I don't get what you are saying. Yes they looked around in 1966. Please explain how you knew this place had been documented by researchers after
that, thanks.
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Barry A.
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I talked to Dr. Ritter a few mins. ago-----------the site that David investigated over New Years is NOT the same site that has the graves, etc..
Dr. Ritter is familiar with the site that David explored, but has never actually done any "work" there, other than a cursory look at it. He has
always wanted to do archaeological work there, but just has not had the time. As an archaeologist, he is of course concerned that the site is now
"known" to the public, and stresses that it really should not be disturbed before a thorough examination is made by qualified experts. He is not
aware of any Spanish sites in this area, but who knows???
He was not familiar with the BAJA NOMADS, but is now, and will be logging in tonight, if he has time, or will at least take a look at David's
postings, etc..
He wants to talk to David, and I have given David the pertinant info to facillitate that, or will in a few mins. via e-mail.
He also mentioned that there is a Spanish trail that goes over the mountains from San Borja to BOLA, crossing the mountains in the vacinity of the
historical mines s. of BOLA----------(???)
That is about all I know for now.
Barry
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David K
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Then where in relation to the bay, or Choral's 'mission' site is the Cerro de las Calaveras?
'Fulano' on BajaForums.com seemed to have already some knowledge of the Ritter report and it was he who said the siite in my photos WAS the Cerro de
las Candeleras...
How does Dr. Ritter know the site hasn't been examined?
If it wasn't for my posts about it... I wouldn't have gotten the link to Ritter's papers (some of them, anyway) and you wouldn't have contacted him...
It is a chicken or the egg sort of question, perhaps? I went someplace I was looking for, took photos and posted the photos, just like I do with all
my Baja trips... and we all can enjoy new places to visit or just see online without touching anything!
I will call Dr. Ritter tomorrow, Barry... Thanks for the contact info. Please see my email, as well.
The Truth is Out There!
[Edited on 1-13-2009 by David K]
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