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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64842
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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So many of us go to Baja TO GET AWAY from the excessive government regulations and rules and to leave civilization behind to get closer to nature and
the 'real world'.
Now an area of Baja that so many Nomads have recently discovered thanks to Shari, is falling under the thumb of government... Will a walk on the beach
be charged like watching a movie.. seriously???
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capt. mike
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8085
Registered: 11-26-2002
Location: Bat Cave
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sling time!
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i'm thinking prez O'Bama came up with this great plan and whispered it into Calderone's ear at the Gee whatever conference for Latin Amerika....
so....besides this lively diatribe being a great Springer episode..the locals vs. the yokels....what's the deal - if you own property (FM3 et al) you
don't have to pay this obviously regressive tax? that seems a tad one way if you use it too, the beach.
what this does is hurt the people most likely to otherwise enjoy an amenity where they might not otherwise have other options for family
entertainment.
poor mexicans from other locales on vaca.
i call BS.
i would however be willing if ASKED to contribute one time for a bracelet in support of conservation or beach maintenance if i was going to spend some
vaca there. i hope they resemble disney land, cruise ship or hospital wrist wraps....what do they do, change the color each day to catch pikers?
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3823
Registered: 2-9-2004
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There will be very little accountability and administration of the fees and, as some have asked, what are the fees going to be used for? And why will
Mexicans allow anything that's proposed to go forward to destroy the biosphere preserve until it's stopped by US NGO's. And at the same time, charge
foreign tourists for the ostensible purpose to conserve it? Isn't the Boleo mine in the preserve? The salt works? off-road racing allowed? illegal
dumping? Open town dumps? illegal turtle catch and fishing? Hunting - legal and illegal - and most of the perpetrators are Mexicans. Isn't part of
the fishing permit supposed to be used for the enforcement and protection of the Mexican waters? What is the fishing permit money used for? Hunting
permits for foreigners cost A LOT - what is that money used for - also supposed to be used for "local" communities. INAH permit fees are already
charged for the Viscaino sites. The fee that tourists pay for their visas is NOT a payment for the visa, per se - it was originally intended to pay
for a multitude of tourist-oriented expenditures. There has been little accountability of the fees that are paid now. I'm not against a fee paid to
enter a park for a specific purpose, within a specific area, to be used for designated purposes, but charging a $5.00 fee every time you stop the car
is wrong. In Jamaica there are private beaches that cost a quarter. You want to see an antelope preserve - pay $3.00 at the door. Turtle research
station? $5.00 please. Campground fee - of course. The whale watching has been going smoothly and the areas preserved - all without an extra fee.
How would this fee affect whale watching? Don't need more boats, no problem with enforcement. All this regulation is really putting a damper on the
Baja feeling big time. I too want to see the printed regulations.
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Like many instances, it unfortunately opens doors for opportunists. I like the fact that it's for the good of the land(and sea) but I struggle to
convince myself that somehow I will not be rousted up in the morning on some desolate beach by some guy in a beat up old Toyota telling me I'm in the
"preserve" and "gimme da mony!"
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3823
Registered: 2-9-2004
Member Is Offline
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Here's an informative site that denotes the problems within the biosphere preserve, and what they may hope to better manage it. There are some
"solutions" proposed - killing all the feral animals is one.
http://www.parkswatch.org/parkprofile.php?l=eng&country=...
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
Member Is Offline
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This is time for us to come together, to work together with kindness, love and respect for ourselves and for everyone.
It seems we Americans have a conditioned response which is to choose sides diametrically opposed, a default paradigm like rich versus poor or dems vs
repubs, which really has no place here or anywhere, its not valid. There are many diverse wonderful people, each a shining light, each a blooming
flower whose presence creates an ever more beautiful world.
BA is new to the approach of a protected Biosphere and I am sure the administrators will have growing pains while being flexible and positive.
There is a long history to these passes, isn't there? The Bioshpere passes are in use in BCS at Isla Espirtu Santo and Isla Partida and all over (the
world) for many years. Primarily the passes reinforce the idea that we should not litter and we should protect the area, no collecting shells and
specimens, leaving no trace of our visits.
In my experience in BCS at other locations, the passes are generally purchased only for organized visiting tours, individuals passing through are not
obligated to purchase passes, however they can purchase the passes if they plan to use the resource fully, such as camping. Let's see how BA shakes
down.
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
This is time for us to come together, to work together with kindness, love and respect for ourselves and for everyone.
It seems we Americans have a conditioned response which is to choose sides diametrically opposed, a default paradigm like rich versus poor or dems vs
repubs, which really has no place here or anywhere, its not valid. There are many diverse wonderful people, each a shining light, each a blooming
flower whose presence creates an ever more beautiful world.
BA is new to the approach of a protected Biosphere and I am sure the administrators will have growing pains while being flexible and positive.
There is a long history to these passes, isn't there? The Bioshpere passes are in use in BCS at Isla Espirtu Santo and Isla Partida and all over (the
world) for many years. Primarily the passes reinforce the idea that we should not litter and we should protect the area, no collecting shells and
specimens, leaving no trace of our visits.
In my experience in BCS at other locations, the passes are generally purchased only for organized visiting tours, individuals passing through are not
obligated to purchase passes, however they can purchase the passes if they plan to use the resource fully, such as camping. Let's see how BA shakes
down. |
Very well stated-----I know that at San Ignacio Lagoon, when they pass out the bracelets, they take the opportunity to explain what you stated.
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3823
Registered: 2-9-2004
Member Is Offline
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The respect and education for Baja's biosphere reserves starts with its residents. Yes, understandable - all the islands are protected, get a permit,
leave no trace. However, I have personally picked up trash on several BOLA islands - most of which is plastic quart motor oil containers and plastic
water jugs. Who is poaching turtles? I have personally seen turtle shells at Isla Encantada. A ton of broken glass on Isla la Ventana. And the
mining will continue to be approved. There is much private land within the biosphere reserves whose landowners will perpetuate the problems that the
fee and designation of a preserve hope to solve - illegal dumping, hunting, fishing, unwise agriculture, etc. The plan needs to start with a sound
foundation of understanding and equal cooperation - not unilaterally applied to foreign tourists while the offenses by Mexicans allowed to continue.
And getting back to accountability - how are the fees now collected spent? Is there no such thing as a financial statement in Mexico? Why aren't the
BOLA islands clean when a fee is collected to preserve them? Is anything done except collect the fee?
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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If the fee money actually goes towards cleanup/protection, it's well spent.
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longlegsinlapaz
Super Nomad
Posts: 1685
Registered: 11-18-2005
Location: La Paz
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
Here's an informative site that denotes the problems within the biosphere preserve, and what they may hope to better manage it. There are some
"solutions" proposed - killing all the feral animals is one.
http://www.parkswatch.org/parkprofile.php?l=eng&country=... |
wilderone, thank you for having found & posted that!!
While it may not be the actual regulations document, it went a long way towards answering most of my questions & I believe/hope many others'
questions.
One thing that's apparent to me in SOME, but clearly NOT ALL posts is a tendency to forget
this is Mexico. Mexico decides what is in their best interest & in the best interest of their people, so the "What's in it for me?" mentality
needs to be left at the border. As guests, we are all subject to the laws of the country, just as the local residents are.
For those who wonder what's in it for them, I would sincerely hope that the site wilderone posted will have answered most of that for you. To me it
says that by enforcing these already existing rules/laws, the plan is to get funds to educate/protect/restore/create/PRESERVE areas which should be
considered to be & treated as national resources/treasures. To promote the health of these area for future generations rather than
raping/plundering/overusing the resources available today with no thought of what happens when they're destroyed/depleted manana.
As the published document stated, many of these areas are very poor areas & don't generate much, if any, revenue to be used towards protecting,
preserving & enhancing local resources. The money from the sale of bracelets will stay in those areas for that reason. That, to me, is goodness!
I can't say absolutely, but I sincerely doubt if 100% of property taxes stay within the community generating those funds. But I do know that many,
many Mexican property owners do NOT pay their property taxes until forced to. What good does it do to place a lien on property which has been held in
the family for generations & will continue to be held in the family for generations to come? Because of this, I personally don't feel that
increasing property taxes for local residents would do much towards increasing local prosperity of any area as a whole. Nor do I feel it's fair. I
can see the fairness in generating additional revenue which will be used locally to better manage the local resources which draw tourists to these
areas in the first place. From that vantage point, it becomes self-evident what's in it for you/me/the local population/future generations of locals
& tourists, alike.
I don't view these as NEW fees/taxes/charges since it's been stated several times that they aren't new regulations, what is new is
enforcement in many areas.
It makes a LOT more sense to buy an annual permit if the annual fee is indeed around $20 USD as someone stated....I noticed there were varying daily
fees quoted, but to keep it simply here, 4 days at the $5 Shari quoted would have paid for an annual permit. In the overall scheme of things, $20 a
year for many who visit several times a year is a nit, especially in light of what's in that $20 for YOU.
Having now seen the document....I have a better understanding & personally believe this is a good thing for all the above stated reasons & for
residents & tourists, alike.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
My contention is with who pays the bracelets and for what activities. Does the family visiting from Santa Rosalia need to purchase bracelets for
their kids who decide to go surfing? What about the mountain bike team from Jesus Y Maria? Are they required to pay the fee? What if a resident
Canadian has friends visiting and they decide to go snorkeling. Do they need to pay?
From what I understand, based on the limited information provided, is that this fee is applied arbitrarily and that is my main contention. Why not
just set up a toll booth at the Vizcaino turn-off and charge a fee there? Seems like an easier solution to me. |
And, there you have it, folks. If it turns out this is as Zac suggests, it sets a lethal precedence which will be adopted all over the place.
Tourism will suffer because some will feel abused for having to pay for the air they breath. If I have to pay merely to visit B.A., or any other
public place, I wont. We already pay through the nose for using the paved streets with taxes from every litre of gas we buy. Enough is enough.
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
Member Is Offline
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It's true. Bad habits are hard to break. We simply must begin and create an example for others to learn from and follow. Many will not change. We each
make up our own reality.
Its confusing in mexico what to do with trash since there is often no organized trash collection system.
There is racism, division and denial on both sides of the issue of protectionism, but that doesn't discredit protectionism. The poor behavior of
individuals reflects badly on them as individuals.
The people who litter, that's really their problem.
The people who clean up, who leave no trace, they make the world a better place for themselves.
I think you can reasonably point the finger at many people who fall short of the Biosphere goals however I doubt you would say the goals aren't
worthwhile.
Personally I have had many opportunities to speak to tour guides and families who I saw littering or collecting specimens in the biosphere, I even saw
biologists litter and they provided complex explanations about how animals live in trash etc..., few change their habits, but that doesn't bother me.
I know tour guides who collect the fee and don't contribute it to the association-they don't buy bracelets.
It's unlikely there will be any prosecutions of individuals who choose not to participate.
I bet those who participate and keep the area clean may also be ridiculed or even harassed but eventually over time their positive example will be
appreciated and children and some families will follow the example.
If you don't want to contribute to the fee, I am sure you can rationalize reasons why you shouldn't and that's fine. The goals of the Biosphere are
valid.
Tira basura en su lugare!
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
Member Is Offline
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Kid, I really do not know how we all got along before you came along to enlighten us. Since you hit this board I have endured more lectures than a
seventh year law student. I will admit my thinking was disorganized, muzzy on some subjects -- frankly, I did not know what I was thinking on some
subjects. You have gone beyond the Limbaugh threshold to tell us where the bear shat in the buckwheat, why and what we should think about that AND
what we should do if we had the resources and resolve. I don't know how to thank you. I won't even try.
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
Member Is Offline
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Cool, I knew there are those that love a good fight, the insults, the attacks, the backhanded compliments, those who relish the joy of taking offense
at everyone and everybody and responding in kind.
But I never expected you to be so open to dropping all that fun for the better. Thanks for all the u2us and support to make this place a fun
community.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
Member Is Offline
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Somebody sent you a private communication? On purpose?
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Santiago
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3511
Registered: 8-27-2003
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
I don't know how to thank you. I won't even try. |
I had occasion to look up the definition of "sarcasm" the other day and sure enough, it said "see Osprey".
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
Member Is Offline
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Just got home from Squidco where I bought my annual fishing license for Mexico. If you have any questions with regards to who needs one, what the
regulations are, etc., let me know and I will send the info your way.
Now, can anyone send the specific Biosphere info to me?
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
It's true. Bad habits are hard to break. We simply must begin and create an example for others to learn from and follow. Many will not change. We each
make up our own reality.
Its confusing in mexico what to do with trash since there is often no organized trash collection system.
There is racism, division and denial on both sides of the issue of protectionism, but that doesn't discredit protectionism. The poor behavior of
individuals reflects badly on them as individuals.
The people who litter, that's really their problem.
The people who clean up, who leave no trace, they make the world a better place for themselves.
I think you can reasonably point the finger at many people who fall short of the Biosphere goals however I doubt you would say the goals aren't
worthwhile.
Personally I have had many opportunities to speak to tour guides and families who I saw littering or collecting specimens in the biosphere, I even saw
biologists litter and they provided complex explanations about how animals live in trash etc..., few change their habits, but that doesn't bother me.
I know tour guides who collect the fee and don't contribute it to the association-they don't buy bracelets.
It's unlikely there will be any prosecutions of individuals who choose not to participate.
I bet those who participate and keep the area clean may also be ridiculed or even harassed but eventually over time their positive example will be
appreciated and children and some families will follow the example.
If you don't want to contribute to the fee, I am sure you can rationalize reasons why you shouldn't and that's fine. The goals of the Biosphere are
valid.
Tira basura en su lugare! |
Good words there Gnu. I wish this were true:
| Quote: |
I think you can reasonably point the finger at many people who fall short of the Biosphere goals however I doubt you would say the goals aren't
worthwhile
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However there are millions who think everythang is always going good. That may be true in THEIR lifetime but with that attitude, not in their
grandchildren or even their kids(not goats).
The train to Cleanland has left the station folks. I hope many will hop on.
If those fees are collected by an official and accompanied with a real(looking) receipt, I'd duly pay.
It's very simple like hinted; put in signs that indicate where and what is up ahead, a biosphere with user fees. That should be spelled out in simple
language(s). No excuses, everyone pays equally...
Nobody wants to be interrupted in their "Lalaland", oops I meant "Canucklia" oops that's Bahia Ascuncion,sorry.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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ursidae69
Nomad
Posts: 275
Registered: 2-22-2004
Location: Youngsville, NM
Member Is Offline
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In March 2005 my group purchased these bracelets before taking an island trip at BoLA and I was happy to pay it. We were even stopped by someone
checking bracelets on the island, so the program has been around a while and sometimes enforced.
It is nothing new and I am happy to see it there. Any little bit for conservation helps. I'm glad they got you on board Shari.
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ursidae69
Nomad
Posts: 275
Registered: 2-22-2004
Location: Youngsville, NM
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
So many of us go to Baja TO GET AWAY from the excessive government regulations and rules and to leave civilization behind to get closer to nature and
the 'real world'.
Now an area of Baja that so many Nomads have recently discovered thanks to Shari, is falling under the thumb of government... Will a walk on the beach
be charged like watching a movie.. seriously??? |
It is sad that you are making Shari's thread political. I wish folks like you, supposedly an ambassador to Baja, would take your political views to
the off-topic section.
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