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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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At this point I do not care about my business as much as I do in preserving the resource. without it it will be gone forever, ALL opportunities will
disappear. I am not afraid to admit it.
What questions did you have Skeet I haven't read through all of this, just saw the link and am finally on a computer that I can watch Youtube on so
after seeing the series I commented.
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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Pam:
Questions:
Why do you think that there has been a increase in the Fish starting from April 08?
Do you think the very Heavy Fishing for Squid has made a difference in the fishing in the Loreto Area?
How many of your Fisherman have gone out to mercnarious Reed in the Past 6 Months.?How many of you Fisherman have gone North as far as Delefonso in
the past year??
How many of your Fisherman have gone to Las Animas in the Past year??
How many of your Fisherman have been more that 15 miles off of Carmen in the past 6 months?
Pam, I do not, do not think it is up to a bunch of Americans or Canadians to try and shut down the Fishery to "Save it for our Grandchildren Deal"".
There is no way you or your Children will ever see the time they cannot catch Dorado on the Sea of Cortez.
Yes there will be declines and surges of lots of fish, but there are not enough Commercial Boats that will be brought in to stop the fish coming.
It will not Happen> It is a Scare Tactic. Starteded by the "Greenpecker" Deal is part of the New Generation trying to take it out on the Old Folks.
They have to find someone to blame for all of their Whimpy Failures.
Maybe if I can get 6 or 7 people together to make a survey we can report on the facts.
Just because you may have a slow down is not to be blameed on the lack of Fish. Remmember that every day you open for Business!!
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maspacifico
Nomad
Posts: 317
Registered: 4-22-2008
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It is Mexico. It's their own laws that are being circumvented. It's their own officials that are being bought off. And when the videos and articles
show how much has been lost it's the lone panguero that is held up as the guy that's going to be hurt by enforcement, not the guy with the fleet of
boats with the longlines that is doing the most damage. It all adds up though. If you fished here thirty years ago you know there were more fish. It
is still a great place to fish and there are plenty of good days...but when you say it's as good now....you lose my respect.
Pescador.....if I slam the left wing idiots as much as the right wing idiots......then can I come? There is plenty of blame to go around.
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Jeez! 
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woody with a view
PITA Nomad
Posts: 15938
Registered: 11-8-2004
Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
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Mood: Everchangin'
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
Pescador, You know what you're talking about. You live and fish there 24/7/265
days a year. Only a fool would argue with you about the status of the Sea of
Cortez fisheries with you, but there's one born every day.
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where did the other 100 days go?
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Russ
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6741
Registered: 7-4-2004
Location: Punta Chivato
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| Quote: | Originally posted by tripledigitken
What organization is doing something meaningful to address the excessive commercial fishing in the Sea of Cortez? |
Pam, Pescador mentioned The Billfish Foundation can you add any other organizations that actually spend the donations received to better the
fisheries?
Bahia Concepcion where life starts...given a chance!
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dtbushpilot
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3288
Registered: 1-11-2007
Location: Buena Vista BCS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by woody in ob
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
Pescador, You know what you're talking about. You live and fish there 24/7/265
days a year. Only a fool would argue with you about the status of the Sea of
Cortez fisheries with you, but there's one born every day.
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where did the other 100 days go? |
I'm fishing the other 100 days woody and I catch fish every time I go whether from a boat or shore. Ok, I lied, there have been times when I didn't
catch anything but not many. More often I have to remind my fellow fisherpersons that we have caught our limit and need to release the rest.
I haven't had the "many years" of experience that some here have had but I've been around the Baja fishing block a time or two. I can only speak for
the East cape region and the fishing here has never been better for game fish (bill fish, tuna, dorado).
I release most fish that I catch but keep what I can eat. I don't fall for that "we'll give it to the orphanage" line to justify killing a marlin.
If you can't catch a fish in the SOC you should find another hobby......dt
"Life is tough".....It's even tougher if you're stupid.....
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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woody in ob,  Thanks! 365 in days a year.
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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On April 8th 2008 I did go fishing from Mulege. Went down to the Point off of Conception> I do hereby swear that the fishing was the best I had
seen in the past 20 years!
I do agree that the fishing has changed in the 20 years before that time. Such as smaller schools of yellowtail but many more schools as a whole. And
the Fish pileups seem to diasapper.
I think that for some reason the large schools broke up to chase the mackeral instead of feeding on the Sierra which was close in to the shore.!
When the Sierra were taken for Fertilizer the yellows move out and went deeper and changed tactics.
Suggestion for a Young College Student;
Apply for the Chance to do your Theis on the Fisheries around DelFonso Island. Go to the Island and live on it for one years observing, recording all
that occurs in and around it.
Make a great Story and I am sure there is Stimulus money around for such a study. Try the University of Arizona.
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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Pleae would some of you Youngsters try to answer some of the Questions??
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Pam:
Questions:
Why do you think that there has been a increase in the Fish starting from April 08?
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which species are you questioning Dorado? if you are refering to dorado their natural migratory cycle would have us seeing more now in August than in
April but what is the point in this question?
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Do you think the very Heavy Fishing for Squid has made a difference in the fishing in the Loreto Area?
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I think and this is supported by fact, the high number of squid indicates an unhealthy fishery, mainly in the fact that their natural predators,
sharks have been severely depleted due to over-harvesting by commercial entities.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
How many of your Fisherman have gone out to mercnarious Reed in the Past 6 Months.?How many of you Fisherman have gone North as far as Delefonso in
the past year??
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We fish where the fish are and those locations have been fished by us for the past six weeks almost exclusively. In the Spring we didn't have to go
that far for the YT as we focused on the north portion of Carmen.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
How many of your Fisherman have gone to Las Animas in the Past year??
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ahhh las Animas the southern waters that we basically do not fish anymore BECAUSE THERE ARE NO FREAKING FISH LEFT! the pistoleros took care fo the
reef fish and the cameroneros that convert to longliners have wiped out the rest.
When was the last time you fished there?
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
How many of your Fisherman have been more that 15 miles off of Carmen in the past 6 months?
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of my fishermen? the last six months...from early May when we started hunting for the pelagics over a hundred but in the last few weeks none because
the offshore SST's are too warm and at this point we're looking for the cooler water which happens to be along the shorelines from San Bruno past
Ildefonso island.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Pam, I do not, do not think it is up to a bunch of Americans or Canadians to try and shut down the Fishery to "Save it for our Grandchildren Deal"".
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Soy Mexicano and it is right to do what I can to preserve our fishery for our future generations. As a biologist it is my obligation to seek the
truth and educate our fellow citizens that this affects.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
There is no way you or your Children will ever see the time they cannot catch Dorado on the Sea of Cortez.
Yes there will be declines and surges of lots of fish, but there are not enough Commercial Boats that will be brought in to stop the fish coming.
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at the rate this resources is being over-harvested, even the conapesca guy near the end of the film admitted to it. did you notice the map on where
the populations of dorado will be in 2050??? just because I may not be living then does not excuse me from fulfilling my duty to future generations.
many many others here feel the same and that is why we are coming together on this. you have not heard the last of this movement.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
It will not Happen> It is a Scare Tactic. Starteded by the "Greenpecker" Deal is part of the New Generation trying to take it out on the Old Folks.
They have to find someone to blame for all of their Whimpy Failures.
Maybe if I can get 6 or 7 people together to make a survey we can report on the facts.
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on gathering the facts and conducting interviews its already being done. I do not believe everything I am told or read I go out and see for myself
before making any decision as to what my opinion will be. I have made my living 100% off the Sea of Cortez for the past 13 years and we are
experiencing a severe decline in several key species.
for a country that relies on tourism so heavily the fisheries agency that should be managing and protecting this resource, one that belongs to ALL of
us is doing a dismal hack job...just listen to Minerva's words!!!
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Just because you may have a slow down is not to be blameed on the lack of Fish. Remmember that every day you open for Business!!
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a slow down of what sort, tourists no we haven't had a slowdown of tourists but I am obligated to give factual information and I believe it is my duty
and that of others to preserve the resource so that others can also have opportunities to make their living off of it as well, future generations as
well as present.
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: gone fishin'
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Russ
| Quote: | Originally posted by tripledigitken
What organization is doing something meaningful to address the excessive commercial fishing in the Sea of Cortez? |
Pam, Pescador mentioned The Billfish Foundation can you add any other organizations that actually spend the donations received to better the
fisheries? |
SeaWatch
Eco Alianza de Loreto, although our program Pescadores Vigilantes is just beginning we gotta start somewhere.
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taoswheat
Junior Nomad
Posts: 73
Registered: 11-29-2007
Location: Taos, NM USA
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This is off topic but---- OK Skeet, I'll bite. How did you get from Taos to Loretto?
And I still think trolling 93 miles should get to some fish. We covered a lot of territory, not just circling in one spot.
What are your thoughts on catch and release? Is it beneficial?
Yeh I know- I'm asking and you wanted answers!
You must be as old as me, maybe older if that is possible.
Regards
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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Skeet.
This morning before sending out boats I was detained in the "library" where I had a chance to read the posts you made early on in this thread. You
defend the poor Mexicano panguero which is noble and so do I and others here.
If you looked at the film you would notice right off the bat they describe that kind of person as being exploited which they are. Guess what kind of
pay the guys that are fishing or processing the fish are getting per day? My best guess is that the guys working in the processing plant make less
than 100 pesos per day and probably are under contract and not covered by benefits of seguro social and infonavit. The fishermen working out at sea
are probably pulling in less than 200 pesos per day and also not seeing any benefits.
Meanwhile the fat cats that you defend are the ones making all of the money while the poor Mexicano is forced to remove what is theirs and what is the
key to their future of a dignified life for these fat cats. Please look at these movies, I do not think you have done that. Listen to the words. It
helps to be bilingual because not all of the Spanish is translated and not all of the English is translated either but even for the English speaker it
is clear. They repeat throughout this film the fact that the fat cats that have the permits and work these guys like slave labour are taking and
taking at an unsustainable level. Once this resource is gone you can say goodbye to commercial fishing and to fishing tourism and the opportunities
that go with it.
On the other hand last evening after I signed off a captain of mine came in to get paid. I forked over $5,000 dollars to him for the last 15 days of
work. That's a lot of dough and this is repeated over all of the other captains that I employ. He thanked me for the opportunity to have this work
and of course I thanked him for making my job possible. Without him and guys like him I couldn't pull this off. He used to be a commercial
fisherman. Then he started tourism and only worked commercial part time. Now he has given up commercial fishing entirely and he is one of the most
concerned captains regarding the state of the declining fishery and the increasingly encroaching large scale commercial takes.
I am not against commercial fishing at all but I am against an agency that is supposed to manage and protect the resource being its biggest enemy. I
wish to see and offer opportunities for these guys to make a decent living and in dignity. My guys have been able to build decent homes over the
years, buy cars, improve their boats or add boats, but equipment such as updated rods/reels, electronics... what kind of conditions do you suppose
those commercial fishermen and their families live in?
we ARE on the same page my friend we want the same outcome, opportunity, dignity, happiness, and freedom.
well my espresso is ready and I need a work break have been up since 3 working.
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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Taos Wheat: I am only 78 going on to 79 soon.
It was a long trip from Taos to Loreto through Hollywood, and other parts of the Country doing many things.
Now Pam I have one more question after stating that I do not support Fat Cats of any kind. I think about my Friends in San Nicholas, Los Delores,
Loreto particualiry the Panga Fisherman.
The sports fisherman come down to fish , then are "Run off' by the socalled Natrual Park of Loreto, That enables good people like you to make a lot of
money off of Fishing. That is fine.
But to think that you must have the Right to control those Generations ahead of you is Ludicrious!
Look what happened when the Greatest Generation tried to contol our Youth-Ended up with the "If it feels good , just do It" plus a whole lot of DOPE
Addicits.
I only report what I have seen in the Past 2 years compared to what I have seen in the past 35 years.
There is still Mucho Fish in the Sea of Cortez.
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Now Pam I have one more question after stating that I do not support Fat Cats of any kind. I think about my Friends in San Nicholas, Los Delores,
Loreto particualiry the Panga Fisherman.
The sports fisherman come down to fish , then are "Run off' by the socalled Natrual Park of Loreto, That enables good people like you to make a lot of
money off of Fishing. That is fine.
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First of all I did not come here for money. If I wanted money I would have continued as a synthetic organic chemist in the pharmaceutical industry
out of the lab and explaining basic chemistry principles to fda lawyers that have no clue. We do not make a lot of money but we make a fair and
decent living. We have a roof over our heads, we drive cars that are at least 15 years old but run well, kids in private school, we're not starving
but we certainly don't make a fortune by any means and that is fine with me.
As far as making money off our permission of working within the park we follow the rules that we must follow. In these management plan meetings there
are some who want to limit the number of permits given and even stop them at what they are in order to create a monopoly for themselves or increase
the value of their business. I am not one of these people.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
But to think that you must have the Right to control those Generations ahead of you is Ludicrious!
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OK then with your logic we should just take what we want and offer nothing in return to those who will come after us? And don't future generations
have the same right to enjoy what we are able to enjoy now? Disregard for those who travel the road after me is against my personal philosophy. I am
not selfish in this respect and in this I do not feel that I must control anything, but I have the right and obligation to preserve the resource for
those who will follow after I am long gone. Its too bad you do not share this opinion maybe that's where the greatest generation went wrong.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Look what happened when the Greatest Generation tried to contol our Youth-Ended up with the "If it feels good , just do It" plus a whole lot of DOPE
Addicits.
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well the mindset of the greatest generation to take what they feel is theirs yet leave nothing or very little for those that follow is nothing shore
of pure selfishness. this is the same mindset who believes it is OK to burden future generations for our foolishness ans stupidity and overindulgency
by saddling them with an enormous tax burden. this will enslave them as the debtholders will eventually call in that debt and somebody will have to
pay.
selfishness. that's the example the feel good generation had set out in front of them and you wonder why the feel goods turned out the way they did!
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
I only report what I have seen in the Past 2 years compared to what I have seen in the past 35 years.
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funny in some of your questions you are comparing with 20 years ago. that is about when the asian ships were really hauling in the fish and when
article 68 went into effect. the current ley federal de pesca was published in 1994 so hopefully you would see an improvement. now the laws that are
in place are not enforced due to corruption, greed and selfishness.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
There is still Mucho Fish in the Sea of Cortez. |
you won't get an argument out of me there but we need to actively participate to keep it that way because if we all had your attitude we wouldn't be
able to say this for very long.
now my question to you:
have you watched this series of three films in its entirety?
do you notice it is made for and by Mexicanos yet also addressed to the english speaking tourist who should also be concerned?
what can you offer after seeing this?
[Edited on 8-8-2009 by flyfishinPam]
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Cardon Man
Super Nomad
Posts: 1319
Registered: 8-28-2003
Location: Thetis Bank
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Mood: !Al Chingaso!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by dtbushpilot
I can only speak for the East cape region and the fishing here has never been better for game fish (bill fish, tuna, dorado).
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Wow, that's a heavy claim. Sure, the Cape fishes pretty good at times and an angler who sets his mind to targeting and catching pelagics will find
some. But to say the fishing has never been better is disingenous in my opinion.
I've noticed that when the subject of decreasing fish stocks in the Cortez comes up, some fisherman get a little defensive. No one's arguing that
there are still high quality fishing experiences to be had in the Sea of Cortez. Thank god for that. But to defend the quality/quantity of the fishing
as being on parr with years past is off base.
Is the fishing as good as it was when Rancho Buena Vista first opened in the 1950's?...When the hotel boats never left Palmas Bay, never traveled very
far off shore and caught every sort of fish imaginable? When big tuna lived at "the slides" north of Los Barriles year round? When you could catch
big pargo and cabrilla "at will"? When migrating yellowtail swarmed in giant schools along the beach and guys like Ray Cannon would catch those big
yellows from shore?
I'd take a trip back in time over the fishing today without a doubt.
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dtbushpilot
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3288
Registered: 1-11-2007
Location: Buena Vista BCS
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Mood: Tranquilo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cardon Man
| Quote: | Originally posted by dtbushpilot
I can only speak for the East cape region and the fishing here has never been better for game fish (bill fish, tuna, dorado).
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Wow, that's a heavy claim. Sure, the Cape fishes pretty good at times and an angler who sets his mind to targeting and catching pelagics will find
some. But to say the fishing has never been better is disingenous in my opinion.
I've noticed that when the subject of decreasing fish stocks in the Cortez comes up, some fisherman get a little defensive. No one's arguing that
there are still high quality fishing experiences to be had in the Sea of Cortez. Thank god for that. But to defend the quality/quantity of the fishing
as being on parr with years past is off base.
Is the fishing as good as it was when Rancho Buena Vista first opened in the 1950's?...When the hotel boats never left Palmas Bay, never traveled very
far off shore and caught every sort of fish imaginable? When big tuna lived at "the slides" north of Los Barriles year round? When you could catch
big pargo and cabrilla "at will"? When migrating yellowtail swarmed in giant schools along the beach and guys like Ray Cannon would catch those big
yellows from shore?
I'd take a trip back in time over the fishing today without a doubt. |
Well then, have a nice trip......dt
"Life is tough".....It's even tougher if you're stupid.....
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LancairDriver
Super Nomad
Posts: 1588
Registered: 2-22-2008
Location: On the Road
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For those who haven't experienced fishing baja 20 to 30 years ago the bar is set a lot lower as far as what to expect. As has been mentioned, you can
still stumble on large schools of fish today, but there is no comparison with the past.
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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Pam, you did an excellent job of really getting down to the basics of what is going on in Loreto. God love Skeet, he is worried about a bunch of big
mouthed gringos shutting off the fishing like they have done with a lot of areas in California.
I think the other area where I have really noticed a major decline is inshore where I have done and continue to do a lot of freediving and
snorkeling. The whole pattern of life there is a disaster with many species not even showing anymore and it gets more difficult all the time to find
any other living creatures in that environ. This is probably the biggest reason that Cypress was disappointed in the fishery of the Sea of Cortez
compared to inshore in Louisiana where they have stopped most of the netting and destructive practices.
I see a few hopeful signs on the horizon but mostly I am really saddened because I understand that the corruption and abuse will probably continue
for some time. It is a testament to the healing stregth of the S of C that has allowed it to survive as well as it has.
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