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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Tano
That sounds like chaos to me.
Did you say, “Kaos,” Max? |
It is, in a way. It's a different atmosphere, the Ensenada office, for sure. A place where showing deference will get one a lot farther than showing
the written law. I wish I had a beer for every time I've heard an agent from that office say, "We [Americans] are going to have to quit using Mexico
as their back yard." Seems to be an anthem they share much because a large segment of Mexican society wants them to act that way. They view the
treatment of Mexicans in the US as unjust [of course, their reference is to the illegals] and they view harsh treatment of US visitors to be a line
of payback. Cheap thrills.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
I have a very hard time understanding why anyone would pay so much but I guess everything has a price. I personally think that if you want a visa you
should meet with the agent and develop a positive relationship in the case of fm-3 renewel the cost is 2200 which is below $200.
Apparently things are different in every office and region... |
FM2 is more. How much more, I don't care. I travel the path of least resistance.
I have a good relationship with the agent but, he's in business and he doesn't charge me any more than others. His competition charges around the
same thing. It's an Ensenada thing.
Things are different in the Ensenada office. They make efforts to drive people to the agents. It makes their job easier...maybe more, I don't know.
Perhaps their work load is heavier. Don't know that either. I just pay and party.
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gnukid
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In La Paz we sit on bales of hay in the INM barn and between singing rounds of I am a frito bandito we push some papers, if you can't pay you trade a
bag of oranges or a fish, I guess the south is different than the north! eyole
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oldlady
Banned
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Whew....I just called and e-mailed a hundred or so folks who are my nieghbors....we all purchased our land and obtained fides without FM-3's or
FM-2's.
Explained squids post that none of our transactions are legal. About a half dozen Mexican lawyers are gonna get a bunch of calls and e-mails on
Monday. Fun to stir folks up.
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MitchMan
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Posts: 1855
Registered: 3-9-2009
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I keep reading these posts on immigration matters and I am still confused on this FM-2 Vs FM-3 Vs Permanent Migratorio Vs Naturalized Mexican citizen.
If, as a USA citizen, you recently acquired a vacation home in the Baja (that you intend to have for the next 30 years) via a Fido , and your home in
the USA has been and will always be your main domicile, and you currently have an FM3, will that FM3 be renewable for the next 30 years? Is that FM3
the best option in these circumstances? Can you become a naturalized Mexican citizen if you only spend vacation time in Baja at the vacation house?
Can you get an FM2 in these circumstances? Is there any point to getting an FM2 in these circumstances?
I have read posts in this forum that stated that the FM3 in only renewable for two 5-yr terms.
Should I start my own thread on this?
I have read other threads on this issue, but I have never found a difinitive answer to my questions.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
I have read posts in this forum that stated that the FM3 in only renewable for two 5-yr terms.
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I've never heard a time limitation for back to back FM3s but, as you state it, that would be 15 years.
The reason I'm progressing from step to step is only to get it over with which is ten years, five /FM3 and five/ FM2 then into inmigrado status and
it's over. I have no desire for naturalization or citizenship or anything like that.
So many questions on this issue have become so distorted that I doubt anybody here has a definitive answer.
Another thing...everything that is valid today probably won't be in five more years. Long term planning is a waste of time.
Sorry I couldn't answer your questions.
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Sharksbaja
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Senora Calimar por favor
You've made it abundantly clear that from your pov that many thousands of Fido holders minus an FM-2,3 are a bunch of idiots who apparently did not do
their due diligence thus are potentially in a situation which could render them impotent to defend their investment.
Since you seem to have such a grasp of this conundrum would you please direct those stupidos to a solution. Should they fess up and declare
themselves and property illegal or should they stfu and enjoy their tenancy?
Do tell.
Also, please explain the process of getting title without an approved Mex bank account which you can only get in some areas with a Fido or title.
Remember, in order to get new services like electricity or city water one must possess an address, a bank account and maintain a min cash balance in
it.
How do these marooons with just an FMT have and get all that stuff and how did they get Mex drivers licenses which also can be required? lol:
Tt appears that in order to get a Fido you must have a bank account in dollars but you need a Fido to get a bank account. You can't have it both
ways.
Good luck Oldlady!
end of confusing post
[Edited on 11-14-2009 by Sharksbaja]
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Bajahowodd
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I can't speak for all, but I do know some folks who "own' property SOB and only transit via FM-T. They are in a gringo ghetto. They pay annual fees
and the entity that runs the place deals with all the issues of taxes, utilities, Etc.
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monoloco
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Yeah, I know plenty of people who have fidiocomisos here and have never had an FM3 and have had no problems, not to say that it's not an area ripe for
future harvests from govt. agencias.
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Bajahowodd
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However, that might be considered biting the hand that feeds you. Fact is that the Mexican government has been wrestling for some time with
liberalizing land ownership laws. Wasn't so long ago the Fidei didn't exist. Long term, the plan is to bring as much foreign investment into the
country as possible. The old guard Mexican pride will take a back seat to dinero. IMHO
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MitchMan
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In La Paz, my cousin (USA citizen) who owns a house in La Paz got the house and the Fido without having a bank account, got his utilities for the
house in his name by showing only his original title papers to the La Paz house.
However, he did have his FM3 at the time he got the house and Fido because he got the FM3 earlier due to his being the managing owner of a Mex Corp.
He got the FM3 appropriate to that management position using his Mexican attorney's Baja business office address. I was a witness to all those
things, in person, and he had the assistance of a La Paz attorney at every step of the way.
I personally have not seen the codified Mexican statutes to any of the laws relating to anything, so I don't really authoritatively know what the
exact Mexican law is. But, I do know what I have seen. Also, I did not get the impression that the La Paz immigration office was particularly
accomodating to foreigners. They seemed to follow procedures, step by step, rather meticulously. Also, I got the feeling if you couldn't understand
Spanish completely, you would be out of luck at the INM in La Paz.
With regard to the legality of title with the fido holder having no Mexican visa, having only an FMT, or having an FM3, I have the following to say.
"Ownership" of real estate is characterized as the list of rights that you have over a piece of real estate. If your rights are documented in the
proper title documents, you have evidence of title. The issue is when someone contests your rights or wants to remove your rights or wants to
exercise rights over your property, you are then put into a position of having to assert your rights as evidenced by your title documents. It appears
to me that if you have no visa at all or if you only have an FMT, then you cannot use the Mexican courts to uphold your rights referred to in your
title documents. That means you can't assert your rights, and that means that someone else my well prevail against you. That being the case, what
good are title documents that evidence your title to Mexican real estate if you cannot assert or defend those rights because you do not have the
requisite legal standing that only an FM3 or FM2 or Mexican citizenship affords? That, I believe, is the issue.
To my understanding, a foreigner who has no visa has no legal standing to defend rights or title to Mexican real estate. Don't expect the Mexican
courts, funded by Mexican taxpayers, to defend a foreigner's real estate ownership rights. An FMT is just a tourist visa to allow you to be a tourist
only. You can sign all the Mexican real estate contracts you want, but you don't have the legal standing to employ the Mexican court system to defend
or assert your real estate contractual rights because an FMT doesn't give that kind of legal standing to the foreign tourist.
Assertions against your Mexican real estate that a Mexican legal entity may assert may likely be upheld by Mexican courts. Makes sense, it's a
Mexican legal entity who probably pays Mexican income taxes making an assertion in Mexican court against your property and you don't have legal
standing to counter or defend against the assertion. What do you think will happen...in Mexico. It's sort of like a jurisdictional thing.
So, it may not be actually "illegal" to buy baja real estate as a foreigner, and no one may actually stop the progress of the transaction. But, if
you can't defend or assert your title because you have the wrong or no visa, and that, my friend, that renders your title vulnerable.
So long as no Mexican entity challenges your title, you may think everything is fine. You may go around for years and say "I legally own this real
estate and I have the Escritura to prove it". In fact, even if you have title insurance with either of the two American Title Companies currently
providing title insurance to USA citizens who ostensibly own Mexican real estate as evidenced by an Escritura, I believe those title companies would
run, not walk, to the position that they can't defend your title (and therefore not pay you or even defend you in court) because of your not having
the correct legal standing to assert rights to your title. I wouldn't pay a nickel for that kind of title.
[Edited on 11-15-2009 by MitchMan]
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
The old guard Mexican pride will take a back seat to dinero. IMHO |
Maybe not, when they try to privatize the oil industry. That idea will hit some serious opposition.
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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Mood: Skeptical
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan what good are title documents that evidence your title to Mexican real estate if you cannot assert or defend
your rights because you do not have the requisite legal standing that only an FM3 or FM2 affords? That, I believe, is the issue.
So, it may not be actually "illegal" to buy baja real estate as a foreigner, but, if you can't defend or assert your title because you have the wrong
or no visa, that renders your title vulnerable. So long as no Mexican challenges you, your fine. I wouldn't pay a nickel for that kind of title.
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Bingo!
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squid
Junior Nomad
Posts: 75
Registered: 6-23-2009
Location: Mulege
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sharksbaja
You've made it abundantly clear that from your pov that many thousands of Fido holders minus an FM-2,3 are a bunch of idiots who apparently did not do
their due diligence thus are potentially in a situation which could render them impotent to defend their investment.
Since you seem to have such a grasp of this conundrum would you please direct those stupidos to a solution. Should they fess up and declare
themselves and property illegal or should they stfu and enjoy their tenancy?
Do tell.
Also, please explain the process of getting title without an approved Mex bank account which you can only get in some areas with a Fido or title.
Remember, in order to get new services like electricity or city water one must possess an address, a bank account and maintain a min cash balance in
it.
How do these marooons with just an FMT have and get all that stuff and how did they get Mex drivers licenses which also can be required? lol:
Tt appears that in order to get a Fido you must have a bank account in dollars but you need a Fido to get a bank account. You can't have it both
ways.
Good luck Oldlady!
end of confusing post
[Edited on 11-14-2009 by Sharksbaja] |
Pretty wrong Mr. Fish!
In order to get a bank account you got to have an FM-3.
No Fido required.
(But the funny part on that issue is: in order to get a bank account you got to have an FM-3.
Well, it's a question of negotiations and phonecall from banker to INM.
Getting a DL no FM-3 is required > you pay you get it.
Never-the-less, something is right on your post: Buying land or just a house w/o an FM-3 , you are an idiot.
The only question remains: Why are these idiots risking all their properties this way. Why are idiots not going w/ the law as they do it in the
U.S.???
The only answer is: b/c they are idiots.
well, I do take the word 'idiot' back and will say: they are just stupid and not well informed. What the heck is the diff?
Reason why I do this is simple. In Mexico you are not beeing informed - by no government department at all - about requirements to obtain what you
need.
better example: There are plenty of Fido's which never went to MXCity for approval. The banke took the money and after several weeks gave the
documents back to the applicant stating: All in best order. He gives a damn on FM-3's
Lawyers are taking your money for whatever you are requesting. They give a damn sh... as well if you got an FM-3/2 or not. They are doing the
transaction just as YOU want it. No way that you are informed about the legal requirements.
(Some - you have to find one - are better / different of course!!)
Again and again and again
FMT allows you to enter the country for 180 days. no more.
The T stands for tourist. No rights - nothing.
You can not sign any legal papers. Well, you CAN if you do, but it is not legal > your signature is not legal < and if anybody interested in
that issue finds out the transaction is null and void.
FM-3 allows you to sign (legal) documents, purching land a car w/ MX plates etc etc etc.
That is the main difference which is discussed here.
FM-2 is the next step, but I leave it out at this time.
I am not giving any advice to anybody. All those who made non law confirming transactions need to know for themselves what to do. LEARN about Mexico.
Mexico is NOT the United States. And if you want to live here adjust to a land where you are a guest.
If you think you can do everything like you did it in the U.S. you are dead-wrong.
Think about this: Can a visitor (tourist) a foreigner who has to leave the U.S after 9o days according to his visa, can he purchase land?
I bet the answer is 'NO'. But I'm not sure abou that.
Just an example.
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comitan
Ultra Nomad
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squid
I'm not disagreeing with anything you say, but it sure makes me wonder about all the tourist that go to Cabo and buy timeshares & Condo's. 
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13036
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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I went through the FM3 process when I was teaching at UABCS, then went to rentista after that and have now got citizenship which allows me to vote,
buy land and I have the same rights as any national which is wonderful.
In my personal experience, I preferred to deal with the head office in La Paz as our local GN office often made alot of mistakes that were costly
later. I also chose to hire an agent to do all my renewals etc... and boy did things ever go smoothly after that and it ended up saving me money in
the long run as I didnt have to make trips out. I swear by Alonso Lopez in La Paz...the immigration office much prefers to deal with agents and there
are no hassles. Alonsos email is alonsobaja@prodigy.net.mx (the agents fees include paying for the visa you require. You dont necessarily have to
deal with your local office.
But it is of the utmost importance to get your papers in order as things can go very wrong very quickly and cost you alot of money and irritation.
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Riom
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| Quote: | Originally posted by squid
Getting a DL no FM-3 is required > you pay you get it.
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Like everything, this varies. Currently in San Felipe an FM-3 (or better) is required for a Baja California drivers license. Like everything, this
might change next week or for a different person.
| Quote: | Originally posted by squid
Think about this: Can a visitor (tourist) a foreigner who has to leave the U.S after 9o days according to his visa, can he purchase land?
I bet the answer is 'NO'.
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Yes of course they can. Anybody (with the exception of nationals from a few countries like Libya and Iran) can buy and sell any amount of real estate
they like in the US, without even having to go there.
Thousands of Europeans, tens of thousands of Canadians, and many Mexican citizens have seasonal second homes in the US and visit them on visitors
visas (normally up to six months entry permitted at a time). There's some withholding on capital gains tax when they sell, but otherwise they can
buy/sell just the same as a resident (and have full rights to sue and be sued).
Same for Canada, nearly all countries in Europe, and (with certain limits) Australia and New Zealand. I've brought and sold a house in six countries
and Mexico is the only country that has required me to have any form of residence document. Indeed generally owning a property does not give any
additional residence rights.
There are some countries in the Caribbean and SE Asia where property ownership and residence rights get intermingled, but in general it's an
especially Mexican concept to require a residence visa to buy/sell a property.
If I buy some vacation rental apartments in Cancun, sight unseen, and have them rented and managed by a local company and then sell them ten years
later having never even set foot in Mexico, it does seem odd that I then have to apply for temporary residence in Mexico (and not use it as I still
don't visit) to sell them.
I'm not saying that's not the case, just very unusual (and daft) compared to the rest of the planet, and might even be against GATT free trade rules,
to require foreigners to apply to become "residents" just so they can enforce a contract.
As it happens, I have an FM-3 as I do spend part of the year in Mexico, but if I was just a real estate investor, with the whole world to choose from,
it would make me (and many others) cross Mexico off a list as a place to invest.
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Hook
Elite Nomad
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Well, Shari's first hand experience seems to indicate that the Chismorrero Calamari is wrong.
Que sorpresa!
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KAT54
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Squid is just another idiot from Mulege
that is expressing his opinion.
No person has ever lost his house with a fido
because they bought it using a FMT.
Tourists buy property.
The FMT makes them legal in the country
and that is all you need to buy.
Later the FM3 protects your property.
Squid needs to show us his proof.
Insurance is between the insurer and the insurance company.
It is in the fine print not governed by the government.
I wonder if he lives near Buenaventura?
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comitan
Ultra Nomad
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Location: La Paz
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Shari
Sure is right about immigration in La Paz, they are the friendliest people and they do speak English and will more than help you through any of the
processes there is really no need for outside assistance if you are here to go through the process.
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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