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Packoderm
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I don't think they're necessarily hated, but what they find here financially and the quality of life must be a bit of a letdown. There's a Latino
enclave in just about every city and town, so they shouldn't feel terrible isolated here. I've worked with many Mexican immigrants, and if they fall
into a work-crew with Americans they do quite well as far as learning English and building a new identity as immigrants. If they fall into a crew of
only Mexicans, then they don't encounter American culture at all, so their experience here is solely a monetary one. The 2nd generation is likely to
go to a rough school and learn the gangster culture which I feel is unfortunate. There are exceptions of course, but I have worked in some of the
roughest schools, and what I see is undeniable. I'm really not too terrible hopeful for many of their futures. What I see sucks really.
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garynmx
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If the USA would crack down on companies and people hiring these people, they would not cross. If you are hungry and cannot find work, of course you
would cross to find work and feed your family, but if there was no work there you would not cross. Make all the Americans who are on welfare do the
jobs these poor people are crossing over to do. No work no welfare check.
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Eugenio
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There are two different discussions going on here - one has to do with illegal immigration in general - and the other has to do with this project in
particular.
To return to some of the details of the original article - I doubt that anyone on this board (correct me if I'm wrong) would deny water to a
dehydrated human in front of them.
However this project is going a lot further in encouraging unknowing folks, with poetry and false security, into a risky environment. And they're
doing it for their own selfish "in your face" political reasons. If they were really concerned with the well-being of the illegal immigrants they
would be sending out literature imploring them not to attempt the crossing.
If these academics are going to encourage people to cross in dangerous areas then they should be held responsible for the safety of the illegal
immigrants choosing that means of entry.
I guess in a perfect world yes we would have water stations and rescue personell available - (the US already do by the way) but at the same time do
everything possible to discourage crossing in to the US in the heat of the desert.
Again - it's not the water - or even the information about where the water is that bothers me per se. It's the callousness and self righteousness of
the artists and academics that I don't like.
Meanwhile the most needy remain pawns.
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MrBillM
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Speaking of Nigerians .......................
I saw on the news today that THEY are concerned that the latest "incident" might make it more difficult for Nigerians who are EAGER to do business in
the U.S. acquire Visas.
Nigerians EAGER to do business in the U.S. ? Don't they do their Lottery Scam over the Internet ? What other business do they have ? That they need
to come to America for, anyway ?
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toneart
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Eugenio
There are two different discussions going on here - one has to do with illegal immigration in general - and the other has to do with this project in
particular.
To return to some of the details of the original article - I doubt that anyone on this board (correct me if I'm wrong) would deny water to a
dehydrated human in front of them.
However this project is going a lot further in encouraging unknowing folks, with poetry and false security, into a risky environment. And they're
doing it for their own selfish "in your face" political reasons. If they were really concerned with the well-being of the illegal immigrants they
would be sending out literature imploring them not to attempt the crossing.
If these academics are going to encourage people to cross in dangerous areas then they should be held responsible for the safety of the illegal
immigrants choosing that means of entry.
I guess in a perfect world yes we would have water stations and rescue personell available - (the US already do by the way) but at the same time do
everything possible to discourage crossing in to the US in the heat of the desert.
Again - it's not the water - or even the information about where the water is that bothers me per se. It's the callousness and self righteousness of
the artists and academics that I don't like.
Meanwhile the most needy remain pawns. |
I think what is behind the giving water to dying cross border trekkers is three fold:
1. First comes the humanitarian act. I think it is genuine.
2. The method of deliverance may offend some, but it is creative...to serve a purpose.
3. Aiding and abetting could be a result but may not be considered as such by the artists and academicians. Some may indeed feel "self-righteous",
some not, but I think that is more of a political concern to the judgmental whom are bothered by the deed.
“I am grateful that I am not as judgmental as all those censorious, self-righteous people around me.” – anonymous
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Bajahowodd
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Where Were People?
| Quote: | Originally posted by Packoderm
This is one of the few wedge issues that can effectively divide liberals. Liberals will let their principles on immigration sway their vote.
Conservatives seem to be able to let it go and listen to and vote according to whomever is setting the party line. Liberals tend to either be
completely for illegal immigration out of compassion for poor foreigners or against it out of concern for the American worker and American culture.
Conservatives are lukewarm for it for the cheap labor it provides and simultaneously against it to foster fear and compliance among the illegal
immigrants - along with a smattering of concern for American culture and sometimes due to xenophobia. As our resources dwindle and our way of life
becomes more constrained, we can look forward to this becoming an increasingly volatile issue. |
I'm trying to wrap my brain around just exactly what Packoderm's point is. I get the feeling that one of the primary concerns comes from the
realization that an apocalypse is underway for the US middle class. It started when Reagan fired the air traffic controllers and has continued
unabated since. The historic middle class jobs were in manufacturing. Those got shipped wholesale overseas. As we encouraged a generation to get
college degrees, we developed a service industry. That has been going overseas. Where do you think that guy is sitting at the other end of the phone
when you call Microsoft, for instance. So, I'm guessing that your concern is that Mexican immigrants are here to steal menial jobs from our people,
because jobs requiring more skills have drifted away.
Perhaps if the greedy folks in the board room and on Wall Street had listened to Peter Drucker instead Milton Friedman, we would still have an
environment of corporate responsibility. Incredibly high CEO compensation is not really about income. It's about power and ego. Pushing every quarter
to increase profits is ultimately self defeating.
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SteveD
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
I think the real issue that has me a bit peaked at this time in this thread is in one's perspective on the whole matter. I think that it is NOT right
to call all the illegal aliens "criminals" in the usual sense of the word. When one thinks of a criminal, at least for most people, one congures up a
person who willfully and consciously and deliberately wants to do some one else harm who does not deserve such harm or who wants to steal something
from some one else without earning the value received, like, let's say Madoff or Manson. The word cirminal has the strong connotation of a mental
state of mal intent or "mens rhea". At least that is the way I use the word "criminal".
Our jails are full of people who have not harmed anyone nor stolen from anyone (personal drug use) but they are "criminals".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The saying goes "We are a nation of laws not of men". Do we want people as US citizens whose first act is breaking our laws? We have over 1 million
people per year coming to the US legally (more than any othe county!) and many of them go on to become citizens.
I am extremely liberal but I also belive we should obey our laws or work to get them changed.
[Edited on 12-31-2009 by SteveD] |
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Eugenio
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
I think what is behind the giving water to dying cross border trekkers is three fold:
1. First comes the humanitarian act. I think it is genuine.
2. The method of deliverance may offend some, but it is creative...to serve a purpose.
3. Aiding and abetting could be a result but may not be considered as such by the artists and academicians. Some may indeed feel "self-righteous",
some not, but I think that is more of a political concern to the judgmental whom are bothered by the deed.
“I am grateful that I am not as judgmental as all those censorious, self-righteous people around me.” – anonymous |
I guess we just disagree as to their motives (your #1) - if they are really humanitarian they wouldn't be encouraging ill-prepared folks to cross the
desert in the first place.
The "deed" of providing water or info on how to get it doesn't really bother me (#2). The deed of encouragement does bother me.
As to what's going on between the ears of these "artists and academics" (your #3) - I doubt that anyone on this board knows - I can only make my best
guess based on their actions.
We're all being judgemental here (liberals and conservatives) - that's why we're posting on this theme. What's wrong with that?
At least these artists and academic have encouraged discussion/debate/judgement - that's a good thing.
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Bajahowodd
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Perhaps the title of this thread should have been "aiding and abetting survival". Forgive me if I fail to see how anything proposed was encouragement.
Desperate people, looking to feed their starving families do not need encouragement to try and cross the border. And given that the US economy's woes
are common knowledge, it would seem to me that fact alone would weed-out all but the most desperate.
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Eugenio
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| Quote: | Originally posted by CaboRon
Profs Develop Smart Phone for Illegals
Tuesday, 29 Dec 2009 12:14 PM Article Font Size
Faculty at University of California, San Diego are developing a GPS-enabled cell phone that tells dehydrated migrants where to find water and pipes in
poetry from phone speakers, regaling them on their journey much like Emma Lazarus' words did a century ago to the "huddled masses yearning to breathe
free" on Ellis Island.
;;;;;;;;;
The software is being designed to direct migrants to water stations but Card##as said they may add other "safety markers," like roads, towns and
Border Patrol lookouts.
The group has published verses to be played on the phone's "Global Poetic System."
One poem reads, "May your tracks cut the shortest distance between points A and B." |
Did you read the article?
How could this be enterpreted as being anything other than encouragement.
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Bajahowodd
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All I know is that when I'm standing in line at the counter of a Panda Express, waiting to order Orange Chicken, I only see Mexicans working the woks
in the kitchen. Show me the Chinese outrage.
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Eugenio
| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
I think what is behind the giving water to dying cross border trekkers is three fold:
1. First comes the humanitarian act. I think it is genuine.
2. The method of deliverance may offend some, but it is creative...to serve a purpose.
3. Aiding and abetting could be a result but may not be considered as such by the artists and academicians. Some may indeed feel "self-righteous",
some not, but I think that is more of a political concern to the judgmental whom are bothered by the deed.
“I am grateful that I am not as judgmental as all those censorious, self-righteous people around me.” – anonymous |
I guess we just disagree as to their motives (your #1) - if they are really humanitarian they wouldn't be encouraging ill-prepared folks to cross the
desert in the first place.
The "deed" of providing water or info on how to get it doesn't really bother me (#2). The deed of encouragement does bother me.
As to what's going on between the ears of these "artists and academics" (your #3) - I doubt that anyone on this board knows - I can only make my best
guess based on their actions.
We're all being judgemental here (liberals and conservatives) - that's why we're posting on this theme. What's wrong with that?
At least these artists and academic have encouraged discussion/debate/judgement - that's a good thing. |
I guess the difference between our viewpoints is that I don't think the artists and academicians consider what they are doing as "encouragement". They
are doing a humanitarian act because the illegals are coming anyway. The reason I believe this is because I would do the same thing. I know my heart
and I know I am not alone in this.
You are right about the fact that we are all being judgmental here in that we have viewpoints; mine to counter your (and other) viewpoints with which
I disagree. Of course, I am judgmental too. Sorry for the "judgment" quotation. Yes, civil dialog is good and you do maintain that civility, Sir! I
appreciate that.
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Skeet/Loreto
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garynmx:
Gary the trouble with your idea is that there is not enough people on wlefare nor are there enough people on welfare whio can and will do the work
that the mesicanos do when they come across the Border.
Why do you think we had the Bracero Program many years ago.
Look at the Facts floks:
The"Wet-backs have been coming across this Border for many , many years and there has not been any Hollaring for water until theses "Liberal Nuts"
have come up with their Scam. enforcement got toughter, more aiplanes for spotting the *******s, therefore pushing them into more Arid areas.
when you Liberal Nuts go out for the New year for a Wild DOPE taking Party, do you have the local Police clear the Streets for you so that you do not
kill someones Child??
The Mexicanos have my full support to come across and get a job and do the best for their Family. They take the Risk. They Reap the Rewards or
Failures. But Please donot let them become Liberal Nuts that depend on a Govt to take care of Them!!
They work, where the Liveral Nuts stand around the Mall telling everyone the problem but do not have the Minds to find a Solution!!
!
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toneart
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Bajahowodd
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Who couldn't love him? even us liverals.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
All I know is that when I'm standing in line at the counter of a Panda Express, waiting to order Orange Chicken, I only see Mexicans working the woks
in the kitchen. Show me the Chinese outrage.
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Effing nonsense. The day you see those hispanic faces replaced with oriental mugs....you will have to rethink who's crossing the border between the
gates.
It's a common occurence in this area to see Chinos coming onshore. I've seen them walking fifty at a time, single file through the hills.
Go to a local Chinese restaurant and ask the dishwasher what time it is. You think he migrated with papers?
I don't think so.
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Bajahowodd
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The yellow peril?
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MrBillM
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Seriously, though
Does ANYBODY actually think this "Good Samaritan" program is going to accomplish its purpose ?
It's just another one of those Goofy things that Liberal Academics spending Tax Dollars come up with to make themselves feel good about their
FEELINGS.
The U.S. Plan to force the Illegals out into the less-forgiving climate of the Desert is working well and will continue to do so. An excellent use of
available resources by putting Darwinian principle to work.
Those who survive the Ganlet will be those who are stronger and more fit to do the Grunt Work.
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DENNIS
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What ever happened to this program?
http://laprensa-sandiego.org/archieve/january04-23/angels.ht...
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MrBillM
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Interdicting Illegals
Sunday, 10 January, The National Geographic Channel is premiering a new series titled "Border Wars" featuring Homeland Security personnel along the
lines of "Cops".
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