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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
I know it's out of character DENNIS, but I take the bait too easily on religion  |
Understood, Ken. Some things just call for firm resolve.
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TMW
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Ken I think there is a difference in religion and a belief in God. Perhaps I should say organized religion for lack of a better phrase. Too many have
hijacked a belief in God in the name of religion. Look at the Sunday morning TV preacher who later gets caught with a hooker or the values of marriage
and is caught in a gay relationship. The catholics with the abuse problems. I don't know if God actually spoke to who ever wrote the bible or not but
I think it is a good book to follow, especially the new testiment with Jesus teaches. Personally I view God as the spirit that brought life to all
living things. I don't necessarily think there is a heaven or hell as some present it. The motive behind that seems to me at more of controlling
people to do right from wrong, but doing right and wrong is in each of us. It's our conscious. If a spiritual God gave us anything that is it.
I think we live in better times today than at any time in the past. It's how we use all the things that are available to us now. Things seem worse
sometimes because of the 24/7 news cycle of especially cable news shows and the internet. You can walk down a street now and get instant news on your
Iphone, blackberry or what have you. 30-40 years ago you had to wait for the evening news or listen to a news radio station.
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
Ken I think there is a difference in religion and a belief in God. Perhaps I should say organized religion for lack of a better phrase. Too many have
hijacked a belief in God in the name of religion. Look at the Sunday morning TV preacher who later gets caught with a hooker or the values of marriage
and is caught in a gay relationship. The catholics with the abuse problems. I don't know if God actually spoke to who ever wrote the bible or not but
I think it is a good book to follow, especially the new testiment with Jesus teaches. Personally I view God as the spirit that brought life to all
living things. I don't necessarily think there is a heaven or hell as some present it. The motive behind that seems to me at more of controlling
people to do right from wrong, but doing right and wrong is in each of us. It's our conscious. If a spiritual God gave us anything that is it.
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Ken Bondy
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TW I agree there is a vast difference between religion and spirituality. I prefer the broader term "spirituality" to the concept of a belief, without
evidence, in some personal supernatural "god". I think humans need spirituality, and we each find it in different ways (nature, evolutionary biology,
mathematics, cosmology...). Religion, on the other hand, is the most dangerous single thing in the world today, it threatens the very future of
civilization. Virtually every major conflict or mass human cruelty in history has been based in some way on religion (9/11, the Inquisition, the
Crusades, for several examples). Now that truly religious people, people who actually BELIEVE what their holy books say, have access to nuclear
weapons, the future of life on earth is at risk.
carpe diem!
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Packoderm
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Isn't shooting a Green Angel about the same as shooting the ice cream man? They only do that in the rougher neighborhoods around here.
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woody with a view
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define "here" and i'll steer clear....
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Packoderm
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| Quote: | Originally posted by woody with a view
define "here" and i'll steer clear.... |
North of the border. They did actually kill one just a few miles from where I live a few years ago.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Packoderm
Isn't shooting a Green Angel about the same as shooting the ice cream man? They only do that in the rougher neighborhoods around here.
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I'm guessing we'll never know the full story on this one.
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wilderone
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"How do you know this?"
I see it with my own eyes every day. I "know" this because I have experienced it. I know this because I have studied for years about the big "WHY" -
driven by extraordinary events - and, as a result, have also come to believe what others have personally experienced and shared. You can believe what
you want, live the way you want - I'm speaking for myself and only trying to share what I have come to know through little miracles, seeing small
pieces of the divine puzzle put into place, which in turn tells me I have so little understanding of the PLAN. I can only choose acceptance of some
things, faith in other things, hope for other things, and a conscious or mostly unconscious willingness to follow the path we chose before we were
born onto this plane we call earth. Being put through hell on earth has its merits. If your life is not tasked with unduly harsh experiences -
physical, spiritual, economic - then you haven't had the opportunity to learn some of these truths, therefore, you're not in a position to tell those
of us who have that they do not exist.
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
"How do you know this?"
I see it with my own eyes every day. I "know" this because I have experienced it. I know this because I have studied for years about the big "WHY" -
driven by extraordinary events - and, as a result, have also come to believe what others have personally experienced and shared. You can believe what
you want, live the way you want - I'm speaking for myself and only trying to share what I have come to know through little miracles, seeing small
pieces of the divine puzzle put into place, which in turn tells me I have so little understanding of the PLAN. I can only choose acceptance of some
things, faith in other things, hope for other things, and a conscious or mostly unconscious willingness to follow the path we chose before we were
born onto this plane we call earth. Being put through hell on earth has its merits. If your life is not tasked with unduly harsh experiences -
physical, spiritual, economic - then you haven't had the opportunity to learn some of these truths, therefore, you're not in a position to tell those
of us who have that they do not exist. |
None of that is evidence, wilderone, it is just belief without evidence. Your statement that "God allows human beings to conduct their own lives,
make their own hell" presumes (without evidence) that God exists, and then goes on to state things with certainty that cannot possibly be known.
carpe diem!
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
TW I agree there is a vast difference between religion and spirituality. I prefer the broader term "spirituality" to the concept of a belief, without
evidence, in some personal supernatural "god". I think humans need spirituality, and we each find it in different ways (nature, evolutionary biology,
mathematics, cosmology...).
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Spirituality is a state of being and religion is dogma. Places of worship can help you enter the state of being but for most people it does not. Of
those examples I feel that only nature approached a certain way can lead to spirituality. The others, Ken, seem to belong fo the world of rationalism.
| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
The motive behind that seems to me at more of controlling people to do right from wrong, but doing right and wrong is in each of us. It's our
conscious. If a spiritual God gave us anything that is it.
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Spirituality has almost nothing to do with morality. Morality has to do with our roots in survival as a species. Every species with a social order has
a sense of right and wrong and it has to do with supporting themselves as a group. That makes more sense to me than a God given conscience that keeps
us on track as taught by the church. TW, you have separated yourself from the religion but not from it's teachings.
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vandenberg
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
None of that is evidence, wilderone, it is just belief without evidence. Your statement that "God allows human beings to conduct their own lives,
make their own hell" presumes (without evidence) that God exists, and then goes on to state things with certainty that cannot possibly be known.
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An argument which has been waged ever since the birth of mankind, and will never have an answer.
Or, maybe after we croak.  Not holding my breath.
[Edited on 8-14-2010 by vandenberg]
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MsTerieus
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| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
Ken I think there is a difference in religion and a belief in God. Look at the Sunday morning TV preacher who ... [preaches?] the values of marriage
and is caught in a gay relationship. |
Nothing inconsistent about that, if he supports Gay marriage.
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MsTerieus
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| Quote: | Originally posted by vandenberg
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
None of that is evidence, wilderone, it is just belief without evidence. Your statement that "God allows human beings to conduct their own lives,
make their own hell" presumes (without evidence) that God exists, and then goes on to state things with certainty that cannot possibly be known.
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An argument which has been waged ever since the birth of mankind, and will never have an answer.
Or, maybe after we croak. Not holding my breath.
And the argument will continue to go on until Man no longer exists (whether he destroys himself as a result of religion or otherwise). There's no
changing the fact that many people worship and/or believe in a supernatural God who controls their destinies. I wonder why people keep arguing about
it or thinking they can change it. |
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durrelllrobert
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maybe at some time in the recent past he had stopped to help a cartel member with a flat tire or something. Even happens to even expensive cars on MX
roads and of course he would have recorded the plate number, etc. which they wouldn't take kindly too.
Bob Durrell
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
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Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
then goes on to state things with certainty that cannot possibly be known. |
There's even a word [well...it's more than just a word] for it...Faith. I spent seven years in a Catholic school trying to figure that one out.
Never did. I forced me into a period of scepticism from which I never emerged.
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by Skipjack JoeSpirituality has almost nothing to do with morality. Morality has to do with our roots in survival as a
species. Every species with a social order has a sense of right and wrong and it has to do with supporting themselves as a group. That makes more
sense to me than a God given conscience that keeps us on track as taught by the church. TW, you have separated yourself from the religion but not from
it's teachings. |
Igor I fully agree that morality has been demonstrated in many primate species. However I emphatically disagree that we get our morality from the
teachings of religion, especially the popular religions. Where exactly is the morality in a religion that advocates slavery (Leviticus 25:44),
permits selling your daughter into slavery (Exodus 21:7), killing people for working on the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2), and killing your children for
talking back to you (Leviticus 20:9, Exodus 21:15 and 17)?
carpe diem!
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DENNIS
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Oh Oh...........I'm halucinating. Could have sworn there was another post up there.
I was going to offer that the cats names are Yin and Yang:
http://tinyurl.com/22joc5q
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by fishabductor
There was, but I realized the cats were not in fact 69ing...schucks!! |
Yeah...I know. Sometimes the details are so cumbersome we just have to forget about them. 
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Skipjack Joe
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Pascal's Wager
Jesus, Ken, you know the bible much better than I do. I don't think I could find those passages. I would have to see if there are not alterior lessons
in those passages that it's trying to point out.
When you come against decisions about something you can't prove you enter the world of probability to help you decide.
That's how modern man decides. The doctor says you have a 30% chance of survival and you are left with hope.
This excerpt from Pensees was influential to me at one time. I got it from Wiki. In the end, however, it was not satisfying.
1. "God is, or He is not"
2. A game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.
3. According to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.
4. You must wager. It is not optional.
Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose.
Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose
nothing.
5. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is.
There is an eternity of life and happiness (to gain if correct)
There is here an infinity (length) of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain
A finite number of chances of loss
What you stake is finite
When one is forced to play, he must renounce reason to preserve his life
When there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.
6. (Some would say) "Yes, but I have my hands tied and my mouth closed; I am forced to wager, and am not free. I am not released, and am so made that
I cannot believe. What, then, would you have me do?"
Learn your inability to believe
Learn of those who have been bound like you, and who now stake all their possessions
Follow the way by which they began; by acting as if they believed
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